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stanthetank

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Dear Wargaming Santa,

 

please give AP a chance again and make HE less powerful.

Bring me the fun of your lovely game back.

 

Sicnerly

stanthetank

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AP is always more powerful in the right situations :fish_book:

The problem is when everyone is spamming HE (especially BBs aswell) then HE becomes so much stronger because DCP management becomes nigh impossible. But WG can blame themselves for causing these problems.

They introduced ships who got super strong HE, so average potato player adapt that because they got killed by that and they start slinging HE with their german BBs which is plain stupid most of the time.

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shot-18_12.03_23_58.41-0332.thumb.jpg.ecae0b179bf604cc56fd3a9d5b31c23a.jpg

22 km away, HE spammer removed. Extreme case, but should get the point across... hopefully.

 

Try do that with HE. AP is doing fine. Yes, HE is more versatile (except when it cannot pen), but AP still removes ships far faster when applicable. You just need to get into those situations where you can use it.

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DoT trumps alpha damage, every time, when focused. AP takes skill and RNG blessings, HE just requires you to hit the general area of a target and damage is guaranteed.

 

Wait for the premium HE shells that have higher fire chance. We all know it will be the last ditch attempt when income taps start to run dry.

 

On 12/11/2018 at 5:55 PM, DFens_666 said:

AP is always more powerful in the right situations :fish_book:

The problem is when everyone is spamming HE (especially BBs aswell) then HE becomes so much stronger because DCP management becomes nigh impossible. But WG can blame themselves for causing these problems.

They introduced ships who got super strong HE, so average potato player adapt that because they got killed by that and they start slinging HE with their german BBs which is plain stupid most of the time.

Except when it isn't. German dispersion is hard to stomach, especially on lower calibre or smaller amount of guns. With HE at least the one shell that hits the target doesn't bounce. Gave up on the line because I would end up being a brainless HE top tier BB, and the game doesn't need more cancer.

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The real problem is HE works in all situations, it might take longer to kill the enemy, but it is almost 'guarenteed' damage.Add to that many players don't know how to handle fires

 

AP only works if you know where to shoot and when it is the right shell to use.

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Have started playing my Conqueror with 18” AP, it doesn’t do as much damage as in its HE 406 guise but the damage she does do sticks. Just one tiny inconsequential fight back against the mantra but I cannot complain about HE when I am sailing one of the worst culprits!

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1 hour ago, stanthetank said:

Dear Wargaming Santa

 

Wargaming Santa says no. Gives you more DoT spamming ships in form of the CV rework instead.

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14 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

shot-18_12.03_23_58.41-0332.thumb.jpg.ecae0b179bf604cc56fd3a9d5b31c23a.jpg

22 km away, HE spammer removed. Extreme case, but should get the point across... hopefully.

 

Try do that with HE. AP is doing fine. Yes, HE is more versatile (except when it cannot pen), but AP still removes ships far faster when applicable. You just need to get into those situations where you can use it.

There is way too much poi in that picture...

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10 minutes ago, peoplescavalry said:

Have started playing my Conqueror with 18” AP, it doesn’t do as much damage as in its HE 406 guise but the damage she does do sticks.

This is a very important point; thanks for making it!

 

Large damage numbers may look good on the post-battle screen, but they don't win battles if that damage can be healed back. It's the damage that sticks that counts. Shoot HE and you can do a lot of damage and set fires, but a lot of that damage can be healed back by ships that have that option (i.e. all battleships and top-tier cruisers). Shoot AP and yes, you may bounce, but most of the damage you deal will count towards a victory.

 

It's kind of like it is with trolls in Dungeons & Dragons, really, except it's the other way around. Trolls heal all sorts of damage except that which is done by fire. A troll would suck if it had to fight a Conqueror.

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2 minutes ago, EgyptOverseer said:

Except when it isn't. German dispersion is hard to stomach, especially on lower calibre or smaller amount of guns. With HE at least the one shell that hits the target doesn't bounce. Gave up on the line because I would end up being a brainless HE top tier BB, and the game doesn't need more cancer.

 

German HE is the weakest tho, except for the penetration values. F.e. Bismarck has 1160 AP overpenetration damage but only 1452 HE penetration damage... Fire chance is also rather lowish (only "beaten" by IJN HE)

I dont bother shooting HE with german BBs unless there is a chance to get a permafire in (or maybe really annoying angled BB). Basicly even switching to HE for DDs is questionable as you gain so little, and if they are closing in -> Secondaries.

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5 minutes ago, thiextar said:

There is way too much poi in that picture...

You expect any less from my Clan tag?

 

Apart from it not being Poi, as it's an Azur Lane mod...

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23 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

German HE is the weakest tho, except for the penetration values. F.e. Bismarck has 1160 AP overpenetration damage but only 1452 HE penetration damage... Fire chance is also rather lowish (only "beaten" by IJN HE)

I dont bother shooting HE with german BBs unless there is a chance to get a permafire in (or maybe really annoying angled BB). Basicly even switching to HE for DDs is questionable as you gain so little, and if they are closing in -> Secondaries.

I stopped at the Bayern, absolutely fed up with the unbearably unreliable guns. Bought the Scar because everyone raves about it, in hope getting a nerfed Gneisenau would bring back hope, and it didn't. Secondaries are just a roulette match and do little to deserve trading concealment. Guns are shatter masters on anything you hit that isn't DD armour or below. You only get to use torps when you are about to die, and I honestly don't get why on all other lines German BBs seemed impervious to major damage when perfect broadside, but when I am on one it eats regular 10k salvos from any angle. It also burns very well with a superstructure that covers most of the ship.

 

I guess German BBs are not for me. On the other hand, German cruisers are a perfect fit for my aggressive playstyle.

 

Either way, my point is that out of all the lines, I can at least understand some German BB captains using HE out of sheer frustration. One lucky salvo every 20 shots to a stationary broadside, or 20 guaranteed damage salvos every 20 shots. I think you will find HE will win that one.

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2 hours ago, stanthetank said:

Dear Wargaming Santa,

 

please give AP a chance again and make HE less powerful.

Bring me the fun of your lovely game back.

 

Sicnerly

stanthetank

Is HE too strong, you are too weak!

 

Learn more about the ammunition types and damage.

 

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7 minutes ago, EgyptOverseer said:

I stopped at the Bayern, absolutely fed up with the unbearably unreliable guns. Bought the Scar because everyone raves about it, in hope getting a nerfed Gneisenau would bring back hope, and it didn't. Secondaries are just a roulette match and do little to deserve trading concealment. Guns are shatter masters on anything you hit that isn't DD armour or below. You only get to use torps when you are about to die, and I honestly don't get why on all other lines German BBs seemed impervious to major damage when perfect broadside, but when I am on one it eats regular 10k salvos from any angle. It also burns very well with a superstructure that covers most of the ship.

 

I guess German BBs are not for me. On the other hand, German cruisers are a perfect fit for my aggressive playstyle.

 

Either way, my point is that out of all the lines, I can at least understand some German BB captains using HE out of sheer frustration. One lucky salvo every 20 shots to a stationary broadside, or 20 guaranteed damage salvos every 20 shots. I think you will find HE will win that one.

 

Oh believe me, i know that feeling :cap_tea:

Gneisenau and Bismarck had somewhat useful secondaries, FDG is just a big joke which i skipped and for GK i just dumped the full secondary idea. I went a middle way with Manual Secondaries and CE + aiming system mod 1. Secondaries are still >10km which is too much for DDs, good enough for Cruisers and BBs dont care that much anyway. But my Concealment is manageable now and the guns are atleast a tiny bit more accurate because i dont use the Secondary module anymore. Its better to rely on the guns rather than your secondaries.

 

Back when we only had IJN/US/German BBs, they felt rather strong because of their protected citadel - but they always took massive penetration damage. Now compared to French/UK BBs it feels like a joke with their immune citadels. Conqueror is somewhat the only one which eats also tons of penetration damage, while others not that much imo, atleast compared to german BBs which probably comes down to the size. And French BBs are fast as hell on top of that.

 

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1 hour ago, EgyptOverseer said:

Gave up on the line because I would end up being a brainless HE top tier BB, and the game doesn't need more cancer.

that is entirely a problem with you as a player, not with the mechanics...

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1 hour ago, Procrastes said:

This is a very important point; thanks for making it!

 

Large damage numbers may look good on the post-battle screen, but they don't win battles if that damage can be healed back. It's the damage that sticks that counts. Shoot HE and you can do a lot of damage and set fires, but a lot of that damage can be healed back by ships that have that option (i.e. all battleships and top-tier cruisers). Shoot AP and yes, you may bounce, but most of the damage you deal will count towards a victory.

 

It's kind of like it is with trolls in Dungeons & Dragons, really, except it's the other way around. Trolls heal all sorts of damage except that which is done by fire. A troll would suck if it had to fight a Conqueror.

Errr, there's still something like 'stats' in which damage done DOES count (sticking or not) and PR where it does too.

I agree that it should be like you said, but alas, it is not so. And the WR is largely determined by your team (only after hunderds of games it ens up not...). 

So... regards from a future Cance... ehh... Conqueror driver (who still knows the AP button though and apparently I'm liking it far too much).

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23 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Oh believe me, i know that feeling :cap_tea:

Gneisenau and Bismarck had somewhat useful secondaries, FDG is just a big joke which i skipped and for GK i just dumped the full secondary idea. I went a middle way with Manual Secondaries and CE + aiming system mod 1. Secondaries are still >10km which is too much for DDs, good enough for Cruisers and BBs dont care that much anyway. But my Concealment is manageable now and the guns are atleast a tiny bit more accurate because i dont use the Secondary module anymore. Its better to rely on the guns rather than your secondaries.

 

Back when we only had IJN/US/German BBs, they felt rather strong because of their protected citadel - but they always took massive penetration damage. Now compared to French/UK BBs it feels like a joke with their immune citadels. Conqueror is somewhat the only one which eats also tons of penetration damage, while others not that much imo, atleast compared to german BBs which probably comes down to the size. And French BBs are fast as hell on top of that.

 

Glad we speak the same language. :cap_win:

Interesting take on the secondary build. Never saw that being featured and it does make a lot of sense. If you secondary range is longer to start with, CE and Manual secondaries actually makes more sense than being a permanent target just to fire at 12Km secondaries that need IFHE to do anything more than shatter and hope to cause some random fires. I guess I paid the price for following guides and recommended builds. Yours actually fits much more my playstyle. Thank you sir. :cap_tea:

 

Now back on topic, AP relies on skill to hit specific ships at specific angles and specific areas in particular circumstances, HE relies on nothing but hitting a target. The higher the tier, the higher the alpha for HE. It's just a perfect storm for a DCP nightmare. In a way, being the sole AP Unicum in an HE fiesta is actually wastefull. A whole team firing nothing but HE while not sitting perfectly broadside and stationary actually normally wins against one that only fires AP (unless it's a team of Conquerors using AP, because the other team would have to kill 36 ships). :cap_rambo:

 

On 12/11/2018 at 7:23 PM, Procrastes said:

Large damage numbers may look good on the post-battle screen, but they don't win battles if that damage can be healed back. It's the damage that sticks that counts. Shoot HE and you can do a lot of damage and set fires, but a lot of that damage can be healed back by ships that have that option (i.e. all battleships and top-tier cruisers). Shoot AP and yes, you may bounce, but most of the damage you deal will count towards a victory.

Except AP damage can be healed back as well when it's not a citadel.

 

As for the heal back comment, would like to see you heal back "all damage" done by HE after 6 consecutive fires (presuming fire prevention and DCP upon the first 3 fires).

 

 

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4 minutes ago, EgyptOverseer said:

Glad we speak the same language. :cap_win:

Interesting take on the secondary build. Never saw that being featured and it does make a lot of sense. If you secondary range is longer to start with, CE and Manual secondaries actually makes more sense than being a permanent target just to fire at 12Km secondaries that need IFHE to do anything more than shatter and hope to cause some random fires. I guess I paid the price for following guides and recommended builds. Yours actually fits much more my playstyle. Thank you sir. :cap_tea:

 

Never seen that one either, but i just felt like it after playing a couple of matches in my GK.

DDs between 10,2-11,7km: You dont hit them enough, and they most of the time should be able to go stealth anyway. If they cant, its probably due to radar, and then your secondaries shouldnt matter anyway (combined firepower). One of the last games i played in it i dealt 11k with 2 AP salvoes at ~11km to a YY, which is far better than my secondaries could be.

Cruisers between that range: They could go stealth (depends) or they might want to rush you (Hindi). First doesnt matter how far your secondaries shoot, and 2nd he will enter your secondaries anyway. Against Cruisers you want your mainguns to do reliable damage.

BBs: lets be honest, they get tickled by that at best. If you cant get the fires, doesnt really matter, does it? There have been situations where i COULD have gotten my secondaries to shoot with the longer range secondaries, but i feel it doesnt matter.

If the target is close enough, your secondaries are equally good. Unless you consider IFHE vs BBs. But all your secondaries have atleast 30mm pen -> thats just enough for Cruisers. Some of them have 36mm pen thats also enough vs BBs.

The tradeoff for a bit more damage to BBs with secondaries (thats IFHE) is imo not worth it vs worse concealment and even worse mainguns.

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9 minutes ago, EgyptOverseer said:

Now back on topic, AP relies on skill to hit specific ships at specific angles and specific areas in particular circumstances, HE relies on nothing but hitting a target. The higher the tier, the higher the alpha for HE. It's just a perfect storm for a DCP nightmare. In a way, being the sole AP Unicum in an HE fiesta is actually wastefull. A whole team firing nothing but HE while not sitting perfectly broadside and stationary actually normally wins against one that only fires AP

 

That thread turned out better then expected. Ok, ill jump in. I agree - the ammunition choice should absolutly be influenced by how the team is put together. Like I sometimes spam HE on the start with my BBs, when there is a CV in my game. Skin off the AA from enemy ships early is more useful then getting a few k pen damage, I think. Also, when you notice, everything around you shooting HE - you might aswell join. DoT can be much more dangerous then a few good AP salvos. Especially, when you got a CV or a huge numbers of DDs around, that can profit with floodings. IMO - this is neglected by a huge part of the playerbase, because teamplay in general is not very strong. Whenever you bring this up in a dicsussion, usualy someone comes with the smart answer "Fire damage is 100% reparable".

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1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

 

FDG is just a big joke which i skipped and for GK

 

:Smile-angry: You leave fat Freddie out of this. Great lil performer, now be nice and apologise. 756042647_fatfreddie.thumb.png.18ebd7f7624c74d796d929592205296e.png

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2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Errr, there's still something like 'stats' in which damage done DOES count (sticking or not) and PR where it does too.

I agree that it should be like you said, but alas, it is not so. And the WR is largely determined by your team (only after hunderds of games it ens up not...). 

So... regards from a future Cance... ehh... Conqueror driver (who still knows the AP button though and apparently I'm liking it far too much).

Well, personally I couldn't give a flying moose about my stats, but that is of course up to everyone's own preferences. I can see why there might be a temptation to go for HE if you want large damage numbers in your books. Best of luck in your Conqueror, Captain, and rest assured that you will do better than most in her if you remember that AP rewards the keen gunner! :Smile_honoring:

 

2 hours ago, EgyptOverseer said:

Except AP damage can be healed back as well when it's not a citadel.

This is true. But then I would say that AP is the ammunition of choice for achieving citadel hits to begin with. And unless I'm mistaken (which I may be), even non-citadel AP damage sticks around more than corresponding HE damage, doesn't it? Edited: I was mistaken. Se posts no 28-29 below.

 

2 hours ago, EgyptOverseer said:

As for the heal back comment, would like to see you heal back "all damage" done by HE after 6 consecutive fires (presuming fire prevention and DCP upon the first 3 fires).

I would like to see that, too, but we both know that that wouldn't happen. I would die a slow and miserable burning death among the waves, cursing in vain as my charred wreck sank to the ocean floor.

 

3 hours ago, EgyptOverseer said:

DoT trumps alpha damage, every time, when focused. AP takes skill and RNG blessings, HE just requires you to hit the general area of a target and damage is guaranteed.

I am not going to gainsay you when you state how you perceive the game. But I honestly haven't felt any unbalance in favour of HE, at least not since I started learning the basics of how to aim properly. Maybe it gets worse around the upper tiers? I only rarely play at tier 9, and most of my games are in ships of tier 7 or below.

 

3 hours ago, EgyptOverseer said:

Wait for the premium HE shells that have higher fire chance. We all know it will be the last ditch attempt when income taps start to run dry.

By all the Gods of Ancient Khem, no. :Smile_ohmy:

(Also: Funny. I suddenly feel better for purchasing that Vanguard+Dreadnought bundle last week.)

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