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Praevasc

Extra commander skills after the "essentials" have been boungt: many low level versus fewer high level extra skills?

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After my captains in several of my ships reached higher levels, I have a dilemma. After selecting the skills I found absolutely essential (by reading the wiki, the forums, and from my experience), I usually have around 3 points left for many of my captains. Should I grind for a level 4 skill? Should I buy a level 3 skill? Or should I buy a level 1 + a level 2 skill? The latter seems to be more effective right now, but might limit me in the future.

 

Note: I mostly like aggressive approaches in faster ships. However, lately I've been mostly playing co-op to learn the handing of my ships better and to earn a few captain points without being a burden on my team with an under-leveled commander. I usually play co-op until all modules have been researched, as I don't want to hinder my team with a ship which is not fully developed. Winrate is more important for me than "personal rating", if I can sacrifice earning exp and money but ensure winning the battle (like baiting lots of enemy ships away from the battle and getting killed by them while the rest of my team caps everything), I'm happy with it.

 

Examples:

1. Königsberg. One of my favorite ships. I have Priority Target, Expert Marksman, Last Stand, and 3 spare points to spend (yes, I managed a pretty nice winrate with so few captain skills). With most cruisers I feel I absolutely need both EM (to not out-turn my guns) and LS (because I ate too many citadel hits and torpedoes whenever my engine and/or rudder was damaged, and my survival rate increased significantly after getting LS). Now the dilemma: none of the tier 3 skills seem appealing enough, and I feel with preventive maintenance + adrenaline rush I could instantly become significantly more deadly. The disadvantage is having to grind to captain level 15 to get my first tier 4 skill. As a more or less casual player it would take me forever.

 

2. Nürnberg: Having loved the Königsberg I feel very attracted to the Nürnberg as well. I will keep it. Mostly played it in co-op and I like it enough to be planning to play it more on random. Same problems as with other cruisers:

- I feel both EM and LS are very important to me, so I won't have any level 4 skill when I reach commander level 10.

- I don't see any level 3 skills attractive enough, but by not taking it now I would delay my Concealment Expert until commander level 15.

 

3. Furutaka. Commander level 9, same dilemmas as with the Königsberg. Was my first ever Tier 5 cruiser so I spent a lot of skill points on low level skills. I have Priority Target, Expert Marksman, Last Stand, then I took Preventive Maintenance because my torpedoes got disabled almost every battle, and I have 3 skill points left.

 

4. Aoba: Will probably skip it, after the Furutaka got the hull C, I don't see any point in the Aoba, and am almost at Myoko, mostly from co-op games, with a level 7 captain, where the same dilemmas will present themselves.

 

5. Gneisenau: one of my newer favorites. I had a very long series of losses right at the beginning, but I can have a positive winrate these days, still wanting to play her often in the future to get better at her. I have Priority Target, Expert Marksman, Superintendent, Advanced Firing Training and one extra skill at a level 11 commander. I'm very tempted to take Preventive Maintenance because it's very frustrating to get into a melee and lose my torpedoes a few seconds before being able to fire all of them into an enemy BB's broadside. I never remember having had my rudder or engine disabled, so I didn't take LS.

So I can take PM now, or wait a few battles to take AR, or wait for half an eternity to take another level 4 skill (which I don't yet know what to chose).

Note: I took AFT so I can keep DDs from getting too close to me. I don't feel a fully secondary build suits my tastes, so I took Aiming Systems 1 instead of Secondary Battery 2, and I'm not planning to take manual secondaries. I feel my secondaries are mostly good as a deterrent, keeping DDs from closing in, and maybe light a few fires on enemy BBs before I duck behind an island. I tried out manual secondaries on the Varg (which is more or less a Bismarck), and I don't feel they are doing so much more damage. What's the point of manual secondaries, when at the end of the battle I get 60-70k damage from my main guns and 3k damage from my secondaries? With manual secondaries I might get another 2-3k extra damage which I don't feel worth spending 4 captain points on.

 

6. Omaha. Captain level 7, close to 8, most points still unspent. I'm very successful in co-op (almost always first place, and most of the time with at least 50% more xp as the second place player), but I suck at random and at ranked with her. Will plan going the Des Moines route eventually, and keep retraining this captain for those ships.

 

7. Destroyers. There are the least dilemmas for me, as going to Concealment Expert as quick as possible is a no-brainer. I like the T-22 a lot, and I got a lot more deadly with her after getting CE. With the Maas I sucked a lot in the beginning, and I could start improving my winrate a bit only after having reached CE. PT, LS, SE and CE are obvious choices for a level 10 DD captain. I'm still hesitant what to spend my next 2-3 skill points, though... probably PM and EM, as I tend to spend points on thing where I feel the limits of not having them (disabled torpedoes, out-turning my guns)

 

8. Carriers. No big dilemmas here. I tend to prefer Torpedo Armament instead of Emergency Takeoff, as because if I'm burning and have already used the damage control, it means I'm soon dead anyway.

 

As I still lack experience especially at higher tiers, I would like to hear your opinions (and use this week's discount on commander retraining if someone can convince me I made major mistakes in my choices) :cap_hmm: I have a few hundred dubloons reserved for this occasion.

 

Mostly my dilemma comes from EM and LS being essential from me, especially in cruisers, and Adrenaline Rush is something I would like to try out too. But taking 3 level 2 skills before having a single level 4  (or even before a single level 3) skill seems something I've never seen recommended on the forums. (why?)

 

Bonus question: how reliable do you think the "Recommended Commander Skills" table is, on the wiki?

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just a quick:

change pt for pm and scratch ls on cruisers. if u aint goin with radar or hydro module the eng mod is obligatory 4 me on such ships. in combo with pm i rarely get engines out with that setup. on dd's ofc it's ls instead of em (in general).

ce on light cruisers also absolutely is recommendable, up to "must have". ar in that regard more valuable than ls.

 

the only ship i've ever ran without a 4th skill been the henry a while ago. switched to giving it ce as well by now.

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1 minute ago, MrWastee said:

just a quick:

change pt for pm and scratch ls on cruisers. if u aint goin with radar or hydro module the eng mod is obligatory 4 me on such ships. in combo with pm i rarely get engines out with that setup.

ce on light cruisers also absolutely is recommendable, up to "must have".

I feel naked without PT, which I know from the games I played while my captain was still retraining and my PT was disabled. How do I know when I can turn around? With PT I can see that 3 enemies are targeting me so I keep bow on, when it drops to 1 or 0 I know I can turn around, because by the time they target me again I'm no longer showing broadside. Without this info, if I turn at the wrong time, I get citadeled almost instantly.

 

Still, thanks for the info.. I guess if PM can often save me from getting my engines and rudder disabled, it might be worth getting instead of LS. PT+PM are just 2 points, while PT+LS are 3 points...

 

And what do you mean by "eng mod"? Slot 2 Propulsion modification? I always took Damage control for slot 2, as recommended by the wiki. But it makes sense now in hindsight, in cruisers I've very rarely been defeated only because of getting lit on fire...

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Personaly i have never bothered with LS on Cruisers (and im a Cruiser main).

Doesnt really feel necessary, because eating multiple citadels usually means you are dead anyway. For ships that lose their rudder more often (like IJN Cruiser) you should use Steering gear mod in the 2nd Module slot which can prevent that (or if you really want then take PM additionally). The fire reduction isnt that necessary, as Cruisers without heal die to HE alpha rather than to fires. And getting focus fired is something you dont want anyway.

 

That being said:

Concealment expert is a must have for pretty much all ships.

 

5. Dont take LS. PM isnt necessary either for BBs. AFT for Gneisenau is only worth it if you take Manual secondaries. AFT gives you ~1km more range on your secondaries, which is imo not worth it on its own. (well, it does increase AA range too, but still)

Imo Gneisenau and Bismarck are the only german BBs where Manual Secondaries make sense. FDG isnt good with that build, and IMO GK profits more from a tank build. I was going for secondary GK, but i think its worse than taking the aiming system mod + tank build. Alltho i didnt abandon secondaries completely, so i have a mixed build right now, and i feel comfortable with it.

 

6. You have to remember that T9/T10 Cruiser want Super Intendent aswell as they get access to heal + all other consumables get one extra charge aswell.

 

 

4 ore fa, Praevasc ha scritto:

Mostly my dilemma comes from EM and LS being essential from me, especially in cruisers, and Adrenaline Rush is something I would like to try out too. But taking 3 level 2 skills before having a single level 4  (or even before a single level 3) skill seems something I've never seen recommended on the forums. (why?)

 

Because Concealment Expert is just too valuable to not get it right away.

 

4 ore fa, Praevasc ha scritto:

Bonus question: how reliable do you think the "Recommended Commander Skills" table is, on the wiki?

 

Never bothered with it (that means i dont know what they are recommending^^). Probably better of looking at Flamus builds on YT i suppose.

 

4 ore fa, Praevasc ha scritto:

I feel naked without PT, which I know from the games I played while my captain was still retraining and my PT was disabled. How do I know when I can turn around? With PT I can see that 3 enemies are targeting me so I keep bow on, when it drops to 1 or 0 I know I can turn around, because by the time they target me again I'm no longer showing broadside. Without this info, if I turn at the wrong time, I get citadeled almost instantly.

 

If you are spotted in a Cruiser and you have to turn -> dont do it. You might get away with lower tier Cruisers because they handle better, but on hightiers some behave like bricks and you will get punished for it.

That means, you dont want to overextend to a point where you cant be undetected anymore if you stop shooting. Thats why you need Concealment Expert.

The best way to avoid such situations is turning before you engage, or you need really good map awareness that no DD can surprise permaspot you.

 

Citazione

And what do you mean by "eng mod"? Slot 2 Propulsion modification? I always took Damage control for slot 2, as recommended by the wiki. But it makes sense now in hindsight, in cruisers I've very rarely been defeated only because of getting lit on fire...

Yep, dmg con in 2nd slot isnt too good for Cruisers. If you have problems with Rudder or Engine (as i mentioned above rudder for IJN), take the one you feel is more necessary for the ship in question.

If rudder/engine failure doesnt screw with your gameplay, then you can still go with dmg con mod.

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7 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Dont take LS

 

Sorry for my mistake. I wanted to write AR. I corrected it now in my question.

 

7 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Personaly i have never bothered with LS on Cruisers (and im a Cruiser main).

Doesnt really feel necessary, because eating multiple citadels usually means you are dead anyway.

 

I feel LS increased my survivability a lot. With a disabled rudder and without LS I get citadeled. With LS I can still turn and avoid getting citadeled. But thanks for the advice, I will take a tier 5 cruiser, remove LS and chose PM instead, then I will play a while with her to see how often I got my engines or rudder disabled.

 

Please note that most of my cruiser experience comes form tier 5. I didn't play any high tier cruisers yet. Is it common in high tier cruiser battles to get your rudder or engine disabled??

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1 minute ago, Praevasc said:

I feel LS increased my survivability a lot. With a disabled rudder and without LS I get citadeled. With LS I can still turn and avoid getting citadeled. But thanks for the advice, I will take a tier 5 cruiser, remove LS and chose PM instead, then I will play a while with her to see how often I got my engines or rudder disabled.

 

Please note that most of my cruiser experience comes form tier 5. I didn't play any high tier cruisers yet. Is it common in high tier cruiser battles to get your rudder or engine disabled??

 

Well, you should have your DCP for that. Basicly never use DCP for your turrets or Torp launchers (unless its really necessary, like you are 2km from a target and your torps break, then ofc repair them instantly).

Also you can have one fire on your Cruiser and not DCP it, even without a heal. It should only deal  2-3k damage, which is better than to die because you have no DCP ready.

 

If you get citadelled, you can always lose your engine. But you want to minimize those situations, and if it happens (will always happen) you should have DCP ready. Some Cruisers are more prone to getting their Ruddes disabled, like if you are kiting (which IJN Cruisers do) then you will lose your rudder more often. But its not the same for all, Hindenburg has no problems with the rudder.

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5 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

If you are spotted in a Cruiser and you have to turn -> dont do it. You might get away with lower tier Cruisers because they handle better, but on hightiers some behave like bricks and you will get punished for it.

Thank you for the hint. I will keep a few tier 5-6 cruisers as I like them a lot, and I will keep PT for them because it works for me. With tier 5-6 German Cruisers I play very aggressively, get into brawls and I'm successful in them. So PT is essential for me to plan my turns. But I keep your advice in mind and will consider not taking PT (and take PM instead) when I'll have higher tier cruisers.

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2 minutes ago, Praevasc said:

Thank you for the hint. I will keep a few tier 5-6 cruisers as I like them a lot, and I will keep PT for them because it works for me. With tier 5-6 German Cruisers I play very aggressively, get into brawls and I'm successful in them. So PT is essential for me to plan my turns. But I keep your advice in mind and will consider not taking PT (and take PM instead) when I'll have higher tier cruisers.

 

I think i wasnt clear enough :cap_yes:

PT is a good skill, you should use it. I meant, if you are spotted, never do a full turn in your Cruiser, even if noone is targeting you at that moment. They might just wait for you to turn, and on hightiers with turning circles being really large even for Cruisers, you will pay for it.

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Another big dilemma for me (with cruisers) is Inertial Fuse versus Concealment Expert. Especially for HE cruisers, like the Japanese. As I don't play WoWs as a full-time job, and as I like to play several ships instead of focusing on just one of them, I guess it will take me ages to reach a lvl 19 captain. So I think I can only afford one level 4 skill.

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6 minutes ago, Praevasc said:

Another big dilemma for me (with cruisers) is Inertial Fuse versus Concealment Expert. Especially for HE cruisers, like the Japanese. As I don't play WoWs as a full-time job, and as I like to play several ships instead of focusing on just one of them, I guess it will take me ages to reach a lvl 19 captain. So I think I can only afford one level 4 skill.

 

IFHE is only necessary when your caliber is <203mm.

As for Japanese they get 203mm at T5, so they dont need it. Only exception is MOgami at T8 which can use 155mm or 203mm guns. The 155mm guns with IFHE are better than the 203mm guns tho.

 

So basicly you want IFHE on

- RU Cruisers T6-T9 (Kirov/Moskva dont need it)

- US Light Cruiser line + Omaha

- Mogami with 155mm guns

- Emile Bertin/La Galissonniere

+ some premiums (dont want to list all)

 

As a sidenote:

königsberg/Nürngerg have 150mm guns but they dont need it, because they have a special HE penetration rule (1/4 of caliber, while others have 1/6)

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2 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

IFHE is only necessary when your caliber is <203mm.

As for Japanese they get 203mm at T5, so they dont need it. Only exception is MOgami at T8 which can use 155mm or 203mm guns. The 155mm guns with IFHE are better than the 203mm guns tho.

 

So basicly you want IFHE on

- RU Cruisers T6-T9 (Kirov/Moskva dont need it)

- US Light Cruiser line + Omaha

- Mogami with 155mm guns

- Emile Bertin/La Galissonniere

 

As a sidenote:

königsberg/Nürngerg have 150mm guns but they dont need it, because they have a special HE penetration rule (1/4 of caliber, while others have 1/6)

Also a number of premiums (De Grasse, the Ducas, Belfast, Perth, Atlanta/Flint).

As for further silver ships, Henri IV does benefit from it, as it lets it pen 50 mm deck plating. This isn't like with 152/155 mm guns where IFHE is absolutely vital, but more whether you'd want to invest 4 points into that situational ability. Kinda like IFHE secondary builds.

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Basically, IMO, sometimes you have to tailor a 19pt captain for one specific ship, especially if we are talking about higher tiers or some premium ships. I try to make use of the wiki guides along with reddit/shipcomrade.com to get it as right as I can. Also some ships offer a variety of builds. The one that I have reservations currently about is the AA build. We still don't know what the CV's will be like, do we?

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Thank you for all the replies, I think I learned a lot from them. For cruisers, I'll switch damage control to steering gears, I'll remove LS from my cruisers and will replace it with PM (not instantly, I'll see how often my mobility will get disabled) so I get one extra commander point, and will try to get CE on either level 10 (without PM) or at level 11 (with PM)

 

What I'm still unsure, is what to chose for level 3 on my Königsberg/Nürnberg, Furutaka, and Omaha. For other cruisers (which I don't intend to keep) I will take Superintendent, so I can use it when I switch the commander to a high-tier cruiser.

 

As for the Gneisenau, I'm planning some kind of a mixed build, with some focus on secondaries, but not fully committed to only secondaries. Still unsure to spend my extra points on AR, or grind more to get CE.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

[...]

How did you ninja me so fast when i pretty much edited the Premium part right away :Smile_teethhappy:

 

8 minutes ago, Praevasc said:

What I'm still unsure, is what to chose for level 3 on my Königsberg/Nürnberg, Furutaka, and Omaha. For other cruisers (which I don't intend to keep) I will take Superintendent, so I can use it when I switch the commander to a high-tier cruiser.

 

Demolition Expert. Nothing much else you can choose atleast for Omaha its pretty good. Probably Vigilance is the other one which is remotely useful...

Not sure if BFT is worth it for a bit better AA.

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1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

How did you ninja me so fast when i pretty much edited the Premium part right away :Smile_teethhappy:

Dunno. Guess I'm just that sneaky.

2 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Demolition Expert. Nothing much else you can choose atleast for Omaha its pretty good. Probably Vigilance is the other one which is remotely useful...

Not sure if BFT is worth it for a bit better AA.

Königsberg/Nürnberg likely are the cruisers that get most out of DE at their tiers, due to combination of best RoF and underwhelming base fire chance. 

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3 ore fa, DFens_666 ha scritto:

Demolition Expert. Nothing much else you can choose atleast for Omaha its pretty good. Probably Vigilance is the other one which is remotely useful...

I rarely use HE with Geman cruisers, but as there are not better options, I'll consider DE.

for the Japanese cruisers I would think they are useless, they have such a high fire chance anyway. So vigilance it is.

 

For the ones I intend to keep, I mean. for the others, I'll probably take Superintendent, if I plan the captain to be used later on with a tier 9/10 ship.

 

4 ore fa, DFens_666 ha scritto:

Personaly i have never bothered with LS on Cruisers (and im a Cruiser main).

Just a quick question (Before I'll start spending my dubloons), as I see you have quite impressive winrates with cruisers.

Is your advice about skipping LS also valid on tier 5-6, or it's mostly for higher tiers?

 

I would then guess that Adrenaline Rush is nice to have, but only AFTER I got CE.

So for most cruisers up to tier 8 (I intend to keep), it's PT->EM->DE/Vigilance->CE->PM->AR (or maybe PT->EM->PM->DE/Vigilance->CE->AR), as I'm unlikely to get much above level 13 any time soon. So I'll have CE at commander level 10 or 11 (if I get both PT and PM first). I have some Elite Commander XP thanks to Halloween, so I'm considering the level 11 with both PT and PM as my base.

 

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1 hour ago, Praevasc said:

I feel naked without PT, which I know from the games I played while my captain was still retraining and my PT was disabled. How do I know when I can turn around? With PT I can see that 3 enemies are targeting me so I keep bow on, when it drops to 1 or 0 I know I can turn around, because by the time they target me again I'm no longer showing broadside. Without this info, if I turn at the wrong time, I get citadeled almost instantly.

 

Still, thanks for the info.. I guess if PM can often save me from getting my engines and rudder disabled, it might be worth getting instead of LS. PT+PM are just 2 points, while PT+LS are 3 points...

 

And what do you mean by "eng mod"? Slot 2 Propulsion modification? I always took Damage control for slot 2, as recommended by the wiki. But it makes sense now in hindsight, in cruisers I've very rarely been defeated only because of getting lit on fire...

 

4 me pt never/barely been an option, match awareness is not trainable on captns so to say ;D... but thats might just a matter of taste. u got good advice here, i dont think i need to add anything. gl and happy hunting :Smile_honoring:

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16 minutes ago, Praevasc said:

Just a quick question (Before I'll start spending my dubloons), as I see you have quite impressive winrates with cruisers.

Is your advice about skipping LS also valid on tier 5-6, or it's mostly for higher tiers?

 

Ive been playing Marblehead most of the time lately when it comes to midtier Cruisers, which is the same as Omaha, and i never had problems with broken engine.

So imo you should skip it. But if you feel that it helps you, then maybe you can use it until you feel comfortable enough with your DCP management, because that is what it comes down to if anything.

EM/AR are better 2pt skills than LS.

 

I guess the worst enemy is an Orion which will break tons of stuff with its HE. Usually you dont want to fight those open water^^ If you can manage that, i think you can live without LS.

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11 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

EM/AR are better 2pt skills than LS.

Thanks for the advice. I'll try some tier 5-6 cruisers without LS, and will concentrate on getting CE as soon as possible, if not at level 10 than at least on level 11. The exponentially increasing exp required seems to take off really harsh after tier 11.

Maybe if I ever reach level 19 and still have 2 points and nothing better to spend them on, maybe then I'll reconsider LS for those rare occasions where they would save my life.

 

(I would guess LS is still important for DDs, especially if I focus on torpedoes, correct me if I'm wrong)

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3 minutes ago, Praevasc said:

Thanks for the advice. I'll try some tier 5-6 cruisers without LS, and will concentrate on getting CE as soon as possible, if not at level 10 than at least on level 11. The exponentially increasing exp required seems to take off really harsh after tier 11.

Maybe if I ever reach level 19 and still have 2 points and nothing better to spend them on, maybe then I'll reconsider LS for those rare occasions where they would save my life.

 

(I would guess LS is still important for DDs, especially if I focus on torpedoes, correct me if I'm wrong)

 

I'd say LS is critical for DD's, yes.

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1 hour ago, Praevasc said:

 

(I would guess LS is still important for DDs, especially if I focus on torpedoes, correct me if I'm wrong)

 

 

 

I rather say mandatory

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j

Il y a 2 heures, DFens_666 a dit :

 

IFHE is only necessary when your caliber is <203mm.

As for Japanese they get 203mm at T5, so they dont need it. Only exception is MOgami at T8 which can use 155mm or 203mm guns. The 155mm guns with IFHE are better than the 203mm guns tho.

 

So basicly you want IFHE on

- RU Cruisers T6-T9 (Kirov/Moskva dont need it)

- US Light Cruiser line + Omaha

- Mogami with 155mm guns

- Emile Bertin/La Galissonniere

+ some premiums (dont want to list all)

 

As a sidenote:

königsberg/Nürngerg have 150mm guns but they dont need it, because they have a special HE penetration rule (1/4 of caliber, while others have 1/6)

If you allow me to hijack this discussion ...

I am a quite new vegetable player grinding the T5/T6 french CL, and although I've indeed seen the lack of damage against long-range uptier BBs (quite unsurprising) I was under the impression that even if these ships would benefit from IFHE it was better to get CE first. Since they are considered as big juicy targets focused by the red team the millisecond you appear ... I felt it was better to focus on cruisers/low tier BBS when the MM doesn't favour you instead of investing at all costs  in IFHE.

Again, since half of my plays consist of getting so many holes in my hull I could use it to cook a bouillabaise, this impression may be very wrong.

Any thoughts ?

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4 minutes ago, bratisla_boy said:

j

If you allow me to hijack this discussion ...

I am a quite new vegetable player grinding the T5/T6 french CL, and although I've indeed seen the lack of damage against long-range uptier BBs (quite unsurprising) I was under the impression that even if these ships would benefit from IFHE it was better to get CE first. Since they are considered as big juicy targets focused by the red team the millisecond you appear ... I felt it was better to focus on cruisers/low tier BBS when the MM doesn't favour you instead of investing at all costs  in IFHE.

Again, since half of my plays consist of getting so many holes in my hull I could use it to cook a bouillabaise, this impression may be very wrong.

Any thoughts ?

At T-V VI you can get away with no IFHE and take CE as your first 10 point skill on the French cruisers

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47 minutes ago, bratisla_boy said:

j

If you allow me to hijack this discussion ...

I am a quite new vegetable player grinding the T5/T6 french CL, and although I've indeed seen the lack of damage against long-range uptier BBs (quite unsurprising) I was under the impression that even if these ships would benefit from IFHE it was better to get CE first. Since they are considered as big juicy targets focused by the red team the millisecond you appear ... I felt it was better to focus on cruisers/low tier BBS when the MM doesn't favour you instead of investing at all costs  in IFHE.

Again, since half of my plays consist of getting so many holes in my hull I could use it to cook a bouillabaise, this impression may be very wrong.

Any thoughts ?

 

As hgbn_dk said, you can probably just grind through T5/6 and not skill IFHE, because after that, it is basicly useless. With small exception for Henri, as it can pen 50mm with IFHE.

For other lines, its not that clear cut imo. I took IFHE for my Shchors before i take CE, since its a longrange HE spammer anyway.

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