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IanH755

Cossack gets a torp reload buff - Why not Haida (Cossack-lite)?

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Hi all,

 

When looking at the performance of both the Haida and Cossack they both seem to be "middle of the pack" amongst the DD's in their tier yet Cossack has received two buffs recently, one for gun turret speed and one for torpedo reload speed, to try and make it more "comfortable" to play (in WG's words).

 

Now having only just got the Haida I was expecting it to be a Cossack-lite, yet found that it still has the "pre-buff" Cossack gun turret rotation and torps. While I can live with the gun turret speed being slower I find it very hard to understand why the Haida hasn't  also received the Torpedo reload speed buff as it's current reload of 86 seconds for its 4 torps seems very poor compared to the buffed 60 second Cossack reload, nearly 50% extra time in a reload.

 

I know WG like to say "gameplay balance" to lot of things but I always found it strange that the exact same torpedo (Mk IXM) on two different ships is given two completely different stats - Different range, reload speed and detectability - when, in this case, I see no justification as both ships are still middle of the pack compared to the other T7-8 DD's despite the decreased torpedo reload on the Cossack, which is why I think the Haida should also get this buff as it won't make the ship suddenly OP.

 

shot-18_12.08_11_01.48-0734.thumb.jpg.4ec60dab5a851b76d390abdb3e1c5e9b.jpg

 

Anyway, TL:DR, just got a Haida and want it's torps buffed please :Smile_trollface:

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dont see your point  but what i am a bit confused is the same torps have different range and conceal even though they are the same type....

 

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Yes give it Cossack's 10km torps on t7 so we can seaclubb t5's with single launch and devastate newbie BB's. :Smile_veryhappy:

 

Haida is completely fine as it is, problem is that Cossack was considered by average and not comfortable to play by most of the community so WG decided to buff it. Honestly that wont help less skilled players coz they just keep on suiciding  and just gives advantage to veterans... i have played about 3 or 4 games on Cossack and its fcking broken in its current state. You can take on t10 DD's. :Smile_playing:

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12 minutes ago, Gojuadorai said:

dont see your point but what i am a bit confused is the same torps have .............................

 

 

.................. a different reload time too, Haida is 50% worse, which was my point (that you don't see?)

 

7 minutes ago, GrumpyRolf said:

Yes give it 10km torps on t7 so we can seaclubb t5's with single launch and devastate newbie BB's. :Smile_veryhappy:

 

Ah, didn't bother to read the OP I see where I asked for the same reload speed only.

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6 minutes ago, GrumpyRolf said:

Yes give it Cossack's 10km torps on t7 so we can seaclubb t5's with single launch and devastate newbie BB's. :Smile_veryhappy:

 

Haida is completely fine as it is, problem is that Cossack was considered by average and not comfortable to play by most of the community so WG decided to buff it. Honestly that wont help less skilled players coz they just keep on suiciding  and just gives advantage to veterans... i have played about 3 or 4 games on Cossack and its fcking broken in its current state. You can take on t10 DD's. :Smile_playing:

Cossack is not broken, its fine. Leave it alone. We have to wait a while anyways before realistic stats about its 'new performance' become available. Your 3 or 4 games are not a big enough sample size and you may be a better player than the average joe.

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7 minutes ago, IanH755 said:

Ah, didn't bother to read the OP I see where I asked for the same reload speed only.

Still it would be a bit too much i think.

7 minutes ago, Shaka_D said:

Cossack is not broken, its fine. Leave it alone. We have to wait a while anyways before realistic stats about its 'new performance' become available. Your 3 or 4 games are not a big enough sample size and you may be a better player than the average joe.

True dat, of course 3-4 battles says nothing about stats.
The thing is that everyone who got it agrees that its kinda broken atm... I mean 5.5 conceal 8 guns the torps, hydro, fast reloading smokes. Just when you look at it it seems too much.

But of course we will se how it ends and its too sson to say if its really that broken or not. This is just my opinion and feeling about the ship.

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Haida has better shell range, AA, Secondaries, speed, concealment. so kinda balances out the ships differences. 

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Buffing Cossack (twice!) is confirmation that WG overtiered it before release. Should have been T7 with T7 torps, and as a G1 Tribal they could have found small nerfs to balance having the extra main guns if having such crap AA wasn't enough already (Haida swaps the X turret for dual-purpose 2x100mm guns).

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5 minutes ago, iJoby said:

Haida has better shell range, AA, Secondaries, speed, concealment. so kinda balances out the ships differences. 

The problem with Haida is that she's a jittery gun platform.  There are two other ships at her Tier with the same guns and traverse - Jervis and Gadjah Mada - and they outscore Haida because her faster rudder shift means she frequently out-turns her own guns. Cossack over performs because her gun rotation and rudder shift are too well matched - rotation is twice as fast as Haida.  You get the same effect at Tier VI with Gallant and Icarus - Gallant is much faster to turn and is a much less comfortable weapons platform than Icarus. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

The problem with Haida is that she's a jittery gun platform.  There are two other ships at her Tier with the same guns and traverse - Jervis and Gadjah Mada - and they outscore Haida because her faster rudder shift means she frequently out-turns her own guns. Cossack over performs because her gun rotation and rudder shift are too well matched - rotation is twice as fast as Haida.  You get the same effect at Tier VI with Gallant and Icarus - Gallant is much faster to turn and is a much less comfortable weapons platform than Icarus. 

 

 

I agree that Haida gun rotation could do with a slight buff. 

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18 minutes ago, iJoby said:

I agree that Haida gun rotation could do with a slight buff. 

I think it would help. Seems a bit daft that Jervis and Gadjah Mada have the same gun qualities when they're much superior in terms of torpedoes. 

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26 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

I think it would help. Seems a bit daft that Jervis and Gadjah Mada have the same gun qualities when they're much superior in terms of torpedoes. 

If someone offers to buff to the Haida I'll take it - she's easily my favourite ship - but it could be argued that she has far superior smoke compared to the Jervis, and that her hydro and torpedoes that can harm other destroyers give her an edge over the Gadjah Mada (especially in a fight between them). But it's true that these three ships do play very similarly in many aspects, so the arguments put forward in this thread are all perfectly valid. I'd say that the matter clearly deserves further consideration, although I also agree with those who say that we probably do not yet have enough statistical evidence to evaluate the Cossack properly.

 

A good thread and a nice debate! :Smile_great:

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However, as usual on this forum, it's rapidly gone away from the OP which was "Can the Haida get the Torp reload speed of the Cossack which uses the same torps?" and instead, again as usual, descended into "I can/can't play the ship well so yes/no" or talk about the guns which, (god I;'m getting bored of saying this) was again not part of the OP and was in fact expressly mentioned as "not talking about turrets" in the OP.

 

2 hours ago, iJoby said:

Haida has better shell range, AA, Secondaries, speed, concealment. so kinda balances out the ships differences. 

 

We're not talking about the balance between the two ships but the balance of each individual ship in it's own separate tier. Both ships are middle table in their tier, yet one has just had a torp buff and the other hasn't and I'm asking that, if both are performing similar in their own tier, should BOTH have got the torp reload buff rather than just the Cossack?

 

So again, not comparing the two ships to each other, but to the other DD's in their Tier.

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T7 vs T8. Haida has unmatched concealment and outspots many T7 dds DDs by like 1 Km! And it's a tier mostly without radar.

I don't know where did you get the middle of the pack stuff for both ships. Cossack was bottom, Haida is middle.

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4 minutes ago, The_Baptist said:

T7 vs T8. Haida has unmatched concealment and outspots many T7 dds DDs by like 1 Km! And it's a tier mostly without radar.

 

Ah, not reading the OP again, thanks for posting!

 

2 minutes ago, The_Baptist said:

I don't know where did you get the middle of the pack stuff for both ships. Cossack was bottom, Haida is middle.

 

You're only looking at Win Rate - Look at all the others like damage, frags, XP earned etc thats where Cossack comes in the Middle.

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Buffing the torpedoes is slightly problematic as it has better Torps for its Tier than it should do. They are the same ones as Minotaur, a Tier X cruiser.

 

2 hours ago, IanH755 said:

However, as usual on this forum, it's rapidly gone away from the OP which was "Can the Haida get the Torp reload speed of the Cossack which uses the same torps?" and instead, again as usual, descended into "I can/can't play the ship well so yes/no" or talk about the guns which, (god I;'m getting bored of saying this) was again not part of the OP and was in fact expressly mentioned as "not talking about turrets" in the OP.

It's a Tribal class destroyer, FFS. It was meant to be a gunboat. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, invicta2012 said:

Buffing the torpedoes is slightly problematic as it has better Torps for its Tier than it should do. They are the same ones as Minotaur, a Tier X cruiser, and they're better than Cossack's.

 

I genuinely don't know if you're being deliberately untruthful or just horrifically mistaken but the evidence which shows you the truth is posted as a JPG in the OP - They are the same torps as the Cossack (Mk IXM Torps) but have less range, more detection and a longer reload making them much worse than the identical ones fitted to the Cossack, which is why I was asking about a reload buff, with the worse range and worse detection remaining for balance.

 

1 minute ago, invicta2012 said:

It's a Tribal class destroyer, FFS. It was meant to be a gunboat.

 

And it still is a gun boat, just with slightly faster reloading torps - Sorry but have you actually read the OP as it looks like you haven't to me and you're ranting about some very odd things.

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Haida has a much superior  torpedo launching arc over Cossack.

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2 minutes ago, Hedgehog1963 said:

Haida has a much superior  torpedo launching arc over Cossack.

 

Yeap it was one of things I found better and I was quite surprised top see just how good the arcs were the first time I used it.

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45 minutes ago, IanH755 said:

And it still is a gun boat, just with slightly faster reloading torps - Sorry but have you actually read the OP as it looks like you haven't to me and you're ranting about some very odd things.

I'm not ranting. For my money Haida has enough torps to be useful, cruiser-style and not so many as to be competing with Jervis, Lightning or other RN DDs. And apologies for the error with the torp types - blame the wiki!

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39 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

Haida is great. She does not need more buffs

 

Haida is Middle of the pack, average, OK, not good but not bad, 7th out of 14 DD's in Win Rate, Damage etc - that is the EU server stats so while you or others may think it's "great" for everyone, the stats show otherwise.

 

Stats aside, I do like the ship, I'm not saying that "it's bad" which is why it needs a buff at all, I'm asking why the exact same torps on one ship reload in 60 seconds yet on another they're 90 seconds and, for the fairly small buff it provides (seen as it's mainly a gunboat and the T8 ship hasn't seen a big increase in performance), couldn't the Haida also get the 60 sec reload?

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3 hours ago, IanH755 said:

 

Haida is Middle of the pack, average, OK, not good but not bad, 7th out of 14 DD's in Win Rate, Damage etc - that is the EU server stats so while you or others may think it's "great" for everyone, the stats show otherwise.

 

Stats aside, I do like the ship, I'm not saying that "it's bad" which is why it needs a buff at all, I'm asking why the exact same torps on one ship reload in 60 seconds yet on another they're 90 seconds and, for the fairly small buff it provides (seen as it's mainly a gunboat and the T8 ship hasn't seen a big increase in performance), couldn't the Haida also get the 60 sec reload?

Can’t help that potato’s play her and drag down her potential “scores”

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