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MrFingers

“Relief for Belgium”, 100 years later. Players helping players for crates.

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As most of you are already aware, the Belgian government has decided that paid lootboxes with random contents are considered gambling. The much awaited Santa-containers are considered to be such containers, and thus WG has made them unavailable for any Belgian, or in Belgium residing, player to purchase them.

 

One might work around that on itself with a VPN, but that might be a bit iffy and risky, since it’s in the grey-zone in terms of legality. But gifting containers is also a possibility, and AFAIK that is not illegal nor frowned upon.

 

So, if you are a person who doesn’t live in Belgium, and feel the empathic need to help a Belgian to buy his/her crates, you can post it here that you are willing to help out.

If you are a Belgian, and wish to get containers, you can ask here if someone wants to help you out.

If you have a match, one can send a PM to exchange ones coordinates and payment details. All this is at your own risk though.

 

(I’m not interested in using this mechanic, nor in buying containers, so I’ll pass, but if I can be a katalyst, I’ll gladly be it).

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3 minutes ago, Eraser_SK said:

Im not sure if this not break WG rules....

why would it?

 

i mean the guy getting the gifts cant buy them afterwards he just gets it gifted  by a generous person. 

so theirs no gambling involved.

 

Edit: ah reading it better now. But still would not think it to be an issue tho.

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3 minutes ago, lameoll said:

why would it?

 

i mean the guy getting the gifts cant buy them afterwards he just gets it gifted  by a generous person. 

so theirs no gambling involved.

 

Edit: ah reading it better now. But still would not think it to be an issue tho.

I write im not sure... dont write it is.... i think its good idea. But someone from WG can ban this guys.

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10 minutes ago, Eraser_SK said:

Im not sure if this not break WG rules....

Let's ask. @MrConwayis this action ok?

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Err, I'm Belgian and this law is the first thing ever that makes me proud to be from here. Lootboxes are cancer, and if the general public (=consumers) are unwilling to vote against it with their wallets (ie, stop buying them), I'm very glad that the government is talking steps and making that bs illegal.

 

Here's my christmas wish in hoping that there will be soon many more countries that follow.

 

 

And @MrFingers, you don't need to ask strangers for help, use a VPN.

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1 minute ago, Saiyko said:

Err, I'm Belgian and this law is the first thing ever that makes me proud to be from here.

That’s also my opinion, but there are a lot of Belgians who don’t share our opinion.

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1 minute ago, MrFingers said:

That’s also my opinion, but there are a lot of Belgians who don’t share our opinion.

Ok.

You do know there is something sketchy with you asking people to assist other people circumventing the law, right? :P

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Wish this was a standard practise or at least force companies to reveal the drop rates for all items involved in said ‘loot box’.

 

That way people could judge better as to whether they should buy any or not.

 

Or more in-game missions to get stuff i don’t know.

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9 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

Ok.

You do know there is something sketchy with you asking people to assist other people circumventing the law, right? :P

 

Why would it be law breaking?

 

So if i gift a friend, that happens to live in Belgium, a Christmas Box, i am breaking the law?

If that would be the case, then they also should block lootbox gifting.

 

What if i gift another player a Christmas Box, without me knowing that he/she lives in Belgium? Would i still be breaking the law?

 

IMHO MrFingers initiative is great, and i fully support it. t2008.gif

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Just now, MaxxyNL said:

Why would it be law breaking?

I intentionally did not make any mention of "breaking" the law.

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5 minutes ago, MaxxyNL said:

Why would it be law breaking?

 

So if i gift a friend, that happens to live in Belgium, a Christmas Box, i am breaking the law?

If that would be the case, then they also should block lootbox gifting.

 

What if i gift another player a Christmas Box, without me knowing that he/she lives in Belgium? Would i still be breaking the law?

 

Well if you compare the situations to other situations - i can give an example. Here, in Finland, chewing tobacco is forbidden by law. It isnt in Sweden tho. There is a lot of traffic between Finland and Sweden and people bring that stuff over the border. It is allowed, if you use it yourself. If they can prove, that you distributed that - jail is waiting. And about the last part: Ignorantia legis non excusat. This is normal in any justice system.

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2 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

I intentionally did not make any mention of "breaking" the law.

 

Sorry, you are right.

 

But isn't circumventing the law not almost the same as breaking the law? s0826.gif

correct me if i am wrong

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1 minute ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Well if you compare the situations to other situations - i can give an example. Here, in Finland, chewing tobacco is forbidden by law. It isnt in Sweden tho. There is a lot of traffic between Finland and Sweden and people bring that stuff over the border. It is allowed, if you use it yourself. If they can prove, that you distributed that - jail is waiting. And about the last part: Ignorantia legis non excusat. This is normal in any justice system.

 

As i mentioned in another reply:

 

What if i gift another player a Christmas Box, without me knowing that he/she lives in Belgium?

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1 minute ago, MaxxyNL said:

What if i gift another player a Christmas Box, without me knowing that he/she lives in Belgium?

 

In general: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat

 

I have no idea how this would look here tho... a lot of speculation. But anyone involved in this thread couldnt claim he didnt knew to whom he was gifting the boxes. If you gift a box to someone without receving money, that might be a whole different story again. Also, im not sure if WG will leave this thread running - they might be in violation of the law themself, if they allow / support a plattform to undermine the belgish law. But this is, again, very speculative. Just my personal view and thoughts.

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12 minutes ago, MaxxyNL said:

But isn't circumventing the law not almost the same as breaking the law? s0826.gif

Technically, no.

 

Compare it to the well known companies (Apple being a good example) (virtually) moving parts of their business to extremely low taxing countries such as Ireland, Netherlands (yea, you :P ) etc.

They are not breaking the income tax law in their (original) countries, but they are circumventing it.

 

edit:

 

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1 hour ago, Saiyko said:

Compare it to the well known companies (Apple being a good example) (virtually) moving parts of their business to extremely low taxing countries such as Ireland, Netherlands (yea, you :P ) etc.

They are not breaking the income tax law in their (original) countries, but they are circumventing it.

 

Well, Offtopic, but I have to say it: IMO - its absolute fraud. Its been done on the back of smaller companies, that do not have the options to do so, and ultimatly, on the back of us all. The tax income, that states are missing, has to come from somewhere. Imagine everyone could do so with any tax? I´d move my income tax to some small or rich country. All while I enjoy the social network, infrastructure etc - or like Apple: the market with people, that are able to pay their fantasy prizes - around me. I wish companys would be hold accountable to such behaviour. Dont pay taxes here? Fine. No access to our market!

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7 hours ago, Saiyko said:

Lootboxes are cancer, and if the general public (=consumers) are unwilling to vote against it with their wallets (ie, stop buying them), I'm very glad that the government is talking steps and making that bs illegal.

 

Alcohol has a much wider negative effect yet Belgium hasn't banned it, maybe we should start a campaign for Belgium to ban alcohol because of its horrendous effects in society, which are much worse than lootboxes. I mean if Alcohol is cancer and the general public (=consumers) are unwilling to vote against it with their wallets (ie, stop buying it), I'd be very glad if the government starts talking steps and making that bs illegal.

 

Nicotine in cigarettes etc also has a much wider negative effect (public health), yet Belgium hasn't banned it, maybe we should start a campaign for Belgium to ban Nicotine because of its horrendous effects in society, which are much worse than lootboxes. I mean as Nictotine actually causes cancer and the general public (=consumers) are unwilling to vote against it with their wallets (ie, stop buying it), I'd be very glad if the government starts talking steps and making that bs illegal.

 

The pollution pumped out by Motor vehicles also has a much wider negative effect (planets health), yet Belgium hasn't banned it, maybe we should start a campaign for Belgium to ban the Internal Combustion Engine because of its horrendous effects to the planet, which are much worse than lootboxes. I mean if Pollution is cancer and the general public (=consumers) are unwilling to vote against it with their wallets (ie, stop buying vehicles), I'd be very glad if the government starts talking steps and making that bs illegal.

 

:Smile_trollface:

 

Sarcasm aside, the problems always break down into 2 arguments, as provided by the Belgian Government too - Protection of Kids and "vulnerable" people -

 

1 - Kids can't buy lootboxes as they can't own any of the payment methods required for an on-line purchase outside of pre-paid cards controlled by a parent. Any child who has been able to buy a lootbox has bad parents and allowing your child to "gamble" because you're a bad parent who doesn't want to supervise your child should be considered just as bad as physical abuse.

 

2 - Adults who can own a payment requirement need to be adults and accept personal responsibility for ALL of their actions, including not paying any attention to their child and allowing them to gamble. However "vulnerable" adults i.e. those with a mental disability should absolutely be protected and that is not the responsibility of a company.

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I suspect this is a scam on the part of @MrFingers to gain access to free loot boxes that he does not want to pay for himself, and pulling on the heart strings of the public to agree with this scheme. Puts hims right in the middle of the box exchange!

 

No I will be providing any relief for Belgium or yourself, buy your own boxes scammer!

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You know we had a song here in Nederland about what would be the nicest country and came up with Belgium I guess it would have to be rewritten nowadays. 

 

 

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WG removes ships, of 10 to 50 euros, that were to strong for the game to protect the standard player.

Than WG put them in packages that costs up to 67,5 euro. Now people are paying up to 270 euro or more for the same ships. 

And people are actually thanking WG for the chance to get those rare ships.

It's a made world.

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Gambling is a serious problem, but you shouldn't ban it completely.

I gues the thing about the lootboxes, belgian government says, You have to label your game PEGI 18 or you cannot sell lootboxes in Belgium.. I am not %100 sure but I think it is like that.

And yes, kids and teenagers has to be protected because they don't know jack shite about gambling addiction and how destructive it can be..

Like alcohol and tobacco..

18 Years old limit..

 

But on the other hand,

Somebody said very nicely, Kids and most teenagers don't have their independent online payment methods.

And If their parents cannot control them to use their cards.. Then that means we have a much more serious problem then loot boxes.

 

As a foot note,

It was discussed before, WG lootboxes cannot be deemed as gambling, because It gives more than you payed in the minimum.

So there is no risk of losing money.

Where there is no risk of losing money, that thing cannot be gambling.

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5 hours ago, IanH755 said:

 

Alcohol has a much wider negative effect yet Belgium hasn't banned it, maybe we should start a campaign for Belgium to ban alcohol because of its horrendous effects in society, which are much worse than lootboxes. I mean if Alcohol is cancer and the general public (=consumers) are unwilling to vote against it with their wallets (ie, stop buying it), I'd be very glad if the government starts talking steps and making that bs illegal.

 

Nicotine in cigarettes etc also has a much wider negative effect (public health), yet Belgium hasn't banned it, maybe we should start a campaign for Belgium to ban Nicotine because of its horrendous effects in society, which are much worse than lootboxes. I mean as Nictotine actually causes cancer and the general public (=consumers) are unwilling to vote against it with their wallets (ie, stop buying it), I'd be very glad if the government starts talking steps and making that bs illegal.

 

The pollution pumped out by Motor vehicles also has a much wider negative effect (planets health), yet Belgium hasn't banned it, maybe we should start a campaign for Belgium to ban the Internal Combustion Engine because of its horrendous effects to the planet, which are much worse than lootboxes. I mean if Pollution is cancer and the general public (=consumers) are unwilling to vote against it with their wallets (ie, stop buying vehicles), I'd be very glad if the government starts talking steps and making that bs illegal.

 

:Smile_trollface:

 

Sarcasm aside, the problems always break down into 2 arguments, as provided by the Belgian Government too - Protection of Kids and "vulnerable" people -

 

1 - Kids can't buy lootboxes as they can't own any of the payment methods required for an on-line purchase outside of pre-paid cards controlled by a parent. Any child who has been able to buy a lootbox has bad parents and allowing your child to "gamble" because you're a bad parent who doesn't want to supervise your child should be considered just as bad as physical abuse.

 

2 - Adults who can own a payment requirement need to be adults and accept personal responsibility for ALL of their actions, including not paying any attention to their child and allowing them to gamble. However "vulnerable" adults i.e. those with a mental disability should absolutely be protected and that is not the responsibility of a company.

Don't forget to mention Belgian roads and Belgian drivers, they kill more than those 3 examples together :Smile_trollface:

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[WGB]
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Everybody gets 2 free lootboxes and probably more in 0.7.12, why not be just happy with that?

 

Although I consider any law that prevents an adult the freedom of choice, a poor law, it is still a law, and breaking it could lead to serious consequences for not only for the person who resides in that country, but also for those who is an aide in breaking it, which will without doubt include Wargaming if they allow this topic to stay in the forum,

What I would say to any vote eligible adult in Belgium, is to lobby your Member of parliament to get the law changed, or move to a free country.

 

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