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TicoXotaR

Italian Cruiser line

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Proper more detailed research into the Italian cruiser line.

 

Tier 1 - Gabbiano (Gabbiano-Class Corvette)
Dimensions: Length - 58.8m, Beam - 8.71m, Draught - 2.53m
Armament: 1x1 100mm / 47 caliber gun.
AA Defense: 3x1 20 mm guns, 2x2 20 mm guns
Speed: 18 knots

Tier 1 - Gabbiano 

Tier 2 - Varese (Giuseppe Garibaldi Class armored cruiser (WW1))
Dimensions: Length - 111.8m, Beam - 18.2m, Draft - 7.3m
Armor: Belt - 80-150mm, Deck - 38mm, Gun turrets - 150mm, 
Conning tower - 150mm, Gun shields - 50mm
Armament: Either 2x1 254mm or 1x1 254 (Forward) 1x2 203mm (Rear) or 2x2 203mm. 10x1 76mm secondaries
Speed: 20 knots

Tier 2 - Varese

 

Tier 3 - Taranto (Former Magdeburg Class light cruiser (WW1))
Dimensions: Length - 138.70m, Beam - 13.50m, Draft - 4.25-5.06m
Armor: Belt 60mm, Conning tower - 100mm
Armament: 12x1 105mm 
Torpedoes: 2x2 500mm 
Speed: 27.5 knots

Tier 3 - Taranto

 

Tier 4 - Nino Bixio (Nino Bixio class protected cruiser (WW1))
Dimensions: Length - 140.3m, Beam - 13m, Draft - 4.1m
Armament: 6x1 120mm. 6x1 76mm 
Torpedoes: 2x2 450mm
Speed: 26.8 knots

Tier 4 - Nino Bixio

 

Tier 5 - Attilio Regolo (Capitani Romani Class Flotilla Leader WW2))
Dimensions: Length - 142.2m, Beam -14.4m, Draught - 4.1m 
Armament: 4x2 135mm
AA Defense: 8x1 37mm, 8x1 20mm.
Torpedoes: 4x2 533mm
Speed: 43 knots on trials

1388533271_Tier6or7-AttilioRegolo.jpg.820ff2855abf0374599b6ce1f48f5099.jpg

 

Tier 6 - Elli (Original name: Giuseppe Garbaldi (Duca d'Aosta Class light cruiser WW2))
Dimensions: Length - 187m, Beam - 18.9m, Draught - 6.9m
Armor: Outer belt - 30mm, Inner belt - 100mm, Main Deck - 40mm, Upper deck 10-15mm, Turrets - 135mm, Barbettes - 30-100mm, Outer bulkheads - 30mm
Inner bulkheads - 100mm, Conning tower - 30-140mm
Armament: 3x2 and 2x2 152mm, 4x2 100mm dual purpose.
AA Defense: 8x1 37mm, 12x1 13.2mm replaced with 12x1 20mm, 4x2 100mm
dual purpose.
Torpedoes: 2x3 533mm 
Speed: 34 knots

Tier 6 - Elli

 

Tier 7 - Luigi Cadorna (Cadorna Class Light Cruiser (WW2))
Dimensions: Length - 169.3m, Beam - 15.5m, Draught - 5.2m
Armor: Deck - 20mm, Main belt - 24mm, Turrets - 23mm
Armament: 4x2 152mm, 3x2 100mm dual purpose.
AA Defense: 2x1 37mm, 4x2 13.2mm, 3x2 100mm dual purpose.
Torpedoes: 2x2 533mm 
Speed: 37 knots

Tier 7 Luigi Cardorna

 

Tier 8 - Giuseppe Garibaldi (Duca degli Abruzzi class light cruiser (WW2))
Dimensions: Length - 187m, Beam - 18.9m, Draught - 6.9m
Armor: Outer belt - 30mm, Inner belt - 100mm, Main deck - 40mm, Upper deck -10-15mm, Turrets - 135mm, Barbettes - 30-100mm, Outer bulkheads - 30mm,
Inner bulkheads - 100mm, Conning tower - 30-140mm.
Armament: 3x2 and 2x2 155mm, 4x2 100mm dual purpose.
AA Defense: 8x1 37mm, 12x1 20mm, 4x2 100mm dual purpose.
Torpedoes: 2x3 533mm
Speed: 34 knots

Tier 8 - Giuseppi Garbaldi

 

Tier 9 - Trento (Trento Class Heavy Cruiser (WW2))
Dimensions: Length - 196.96m, Beam - 20.6m, Draught - 6.8m
Armor: Belt 70mm, Deck 20-50mm, Turrets 100mm, Conning tower 100mm
Armament: 4x2 203mm, 8x2 100mm dual purpose.
AA Defense: 4x1 40mm, 4x2 37mm, 8x1 20mm, 4x2 13,2mm, 8x2 100mm Dual purpose.
Torpedoes: 4x2 533mm
Speed: 35.6 knots during trials.

Tier 9 - Trento

 

Tier 10 - Zara (Zara Class Heavy Cruiser (WW2))
Dimensions: Length: 179.6m, Beam 20.62m, Draught 7.2m
Armor: Deck 70mm, Belt 150mm, Turrets 150mm, Barbettes 150mm, Conning 
Tower 150mm.
Armament: 4x2 203mm, 8x2 100mm dual purpose.
AA Defense: 4x1 40mm, 4x2 37mm, 6x2 20mm, 2x1 20mm, 4x2 13.2mm, 8x2
100mm dual purpose.

Speed: 32 knots

Tier 10 - Zara

 

Italian Destroyer line is next with much more detail.

 

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Nicely presented, but if they are like the other two on the game at present they would not be a line I would grind

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First two ships in line a definite no. T1 is too week and also it has torpedoes. T2 is armoured crusiser with not uniform main battery which means, for now, it can't be implemented in the game. Garibaldi is too high, T6 or T7 would be appropriate, Capitani Romini is more a large DD then cruiser.

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I hate to be negative, but it was stated if i remember that corvets wont be in wows, regarding the T2 armoured  cruiser, i wish WG would include protected and armoured cruisers in a sidegrade branch in the lower tiers, many interesting ships fall under those categories.

But for the rest of your tree, well put. 

 :Smile_honoring:

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Trento is more likely a T7 and Zara a T8. These two ships are not competitive at T9/10 and are far more suited for those tiers. Not to mention, these are the tiers were typically cruiser lines transition to heavy cruisers (Germans, French). Also because much of the rest on the list is not competitive on the stated tiers.

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Capitani Romani is a Tier VIII + DD, it would make GC look weak at Tier V if they called it a cruiser.

 

I like the Italian cruisers we have but are there any candidates for Tiers IX and X? 

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... well, if I may.

 

TI : Gabbiano
Having a corvette, let alone this vorvette, at TI is... hardly balanced. The thing moves around with only a single main gun of low power while most TI have between 4 and 6 decent-to-good guns. It would be unable to compete with that low firepower, and would probably disgust any player trying Italian branches outright.

 

TII : Giuseppe Garibaldi

Garibaldi is in itself not a trash choice for a TII although it's already very special and doesn't fit very well. But what I'm gonna question here is the logical fluidity of your branch. You're starting of with a heavy ship that wields 203mm a,d 254mm ; THEN, you'll revert to small, light and unarmored ships wielding 105mm and grow the ship, armor and caliber more or less evenly afterwards.

There are other low-tier possibilities that would ensure more continuity rather than a huge break of gameplay right off the bat at TII/III. As such, I would only advise for Garibaldi as a TII if you decide to split CL and CA into two different branches (and even then, it's debatable).

 

TIII : Magdeburg

Italians have a lot of cruisers, so it's sad you're picking something german to go within the Italian line. If it had been heavily modified with Italian equippement, why not... but there it's just a german class. It's sad.

 

TIV : Nino Bixio

Poor Nino Bixio doesn't hold a candle to other TIV. Her armament is weak by any measure, she's very slow and rather small. That's low-tier material I'd say.

 

TV : Capitani Romani

I have no objection for Capitani Romani to be within a CL branch, because that's a possibility. But besides denying you a perfect TX DD, it could cause a big continuity break once again in size, speed, armament and torpedo power if one's not careful. So, a valid choice, but dangerous and to keep an eye upon.

Also be careful with how you write the stats. "4*2 533mm" should mean four double tubes instead of two quadruples. In other designs, you're going back and forth between writing first the number of launchers or first the number of tube per launcher. AT least be consistent throughout your post.

And since we're on topic, why "Attilio Regolo" ? Why not Capitani Romani ? I understand why you'd avoide Aosta and Abruzzi cause they're already IG, but here, why don't you take the class leader ?

 

TVI, VII and VIII : Duca d'Aosta... or Abruzzi ? then Cadorna, then Abruzzi ? What's going on there ?
Okay, more seriously. I know three Elli. A class of the 70s, sold to grece, a chinese order sold to greece in 1914, and an italian cruiser given to greece in the 50s.
Your "elli" can only be the third one. But it's not Giuseppe Garbaldi, it's Eugenio di Savoi, which is indeed a member of the d'Aosta class, why Garibaldi was Abruzzi's sister !

Okay, maybe there's confusion on the names, happens to the best of us (tho once again, why use "Elli" anyway ? It's a greek ship ! Use the Italian name if you're making an italian branch...) But then, why are you giving the stats of Abruzzi ? The armor, main guns, secondaries and AA, even the beam, they are not d'Aosta's ! So what's supposed to be TVI ? D'Aosta, or Abruzzi ? Looking at the stats it should be the latter.

 

Then at TVII you have Cadorna, a subclass of Condottieri again which is anterior to both d'Aosta and Abruzzi ? Is it wise to have it at TVII then, between the two ?
 

And finally you've got Abruzzi at TVIII (so you really wanted d'Aosta at TVI after all ?). Oh and once again, what's with the way you designate main guns ? 3*2 and 2*2 155mm ? So, was it 5 double guns ? And if it's two triples and two doubles, then when you say 4*2 100mm, is is two quadruples ?

 

TIX and X : Trento and Zara
Okay, and there's the problem of mixing CL and CA. You ended up using CAs to fill the high-tiers of a CL branch when you couldn't find anymore CL I suppose.
Way overtiered. Waaaaay overtiered.

 

Conclusion :

I apologize for sounding a little bit harsher than intended by the end. But it's clear not much work went into this tree : the stats are incoherently written and are faulty by place, sometimes dowright contradicting with the class they're describing ; not much thought, if at all, seems to have gone towards overall balance, branch gameplay and fluidity. It's more like an amalgamation of ships with no coherence.

I understand the enthousiam when it comes to making techtrees, I'm a fan myself. But it does take a lot of work, even with the dream, and one must be able to justify the choices made all the time.

 

 

If you'd allow me, I would like to post my take on the matter. There are many trees out there far more detailled and with much more work put into it,that I encourage you to check out.

 

Spoiler

IT-CL Name Main Guns TTs Max Speed Other Guns Armor Displacement
Size
2 Quarto 6*1 120
2P2S2C
N/A 28 6*1 76 D 40 3271
126*12.8
3 Ancona
(as AA Cruiser)
13*2 100
5P5S3C
N/A 28 2*2 13.2 B 60 - 18
D 40 - 20
4912
139*13.8
4 Etna 3*2 135 N/A 28 10*1 65
10*2 20
B 60
D 35-20
5900
141*14.5
5 Giussano 4*2 152 2*2 533
1P1S
36.5 3*2 100
2*1 40
B 24
Bh 20
D 20
5155
160*15.5
6 Duca d'Aosta 4*2 152 2*3 533
1P1S
36.5 3*2 100
4*2 37
6*2 13.2
B 70
Bh 50 - 30
D 35 - 30
Barb 70 - 50
8317
171.8*17.5
7 Duca Degli Abruzzi 2*2 + 2*3 152 2*3 533
1P1S
34 4*2 100
4*2 37
4*2 13.2
Decap : 30
B 100
Bh : 30 + 100
D : (15-10) + 40
Barb 100 - 30
9440
171.8*18.9
8

(UP 90 152)

Ettore Fieramosca

3*3 152 2*3 533
1P1S
34 6*2 120
8*2 40
8*2 29
B 102
Bh 40 + 100
D 10 + 64
10100
187.5*21
9 Costanzo Ciano 3*3 152 ??? 34 4*2 90 B 120
Bh 40 + 100
D 15 + 80
11000
???*??
X

(Project 986 CL)

Giovanni Vitelleschi

4*3 152 2*4 533
1P1S
37 6*2 90
8*2 37
4*2 + 2*1 20
B 150
Bh 40 + 120
D 25 + 70
Barb 150
15500
213.9*22

 

To make reading clear :

-In Main Guns and TTs, the mention "xPySzC" means that of the guns or launchers mentionned above, x were restricted to firing to Port, y to Starboard, and z were placed on centerline and could thus fire on both side.

 

-caliber is always given in mm ; speed is given in knots ; armor is given in mm ; displacement is given in metric tons, and is the standard displacement ; and size is length*beam, given in m.

 

-When the ship is a design, its official designation is written in parethesis. The accompagnying name is just there for the show and is not necessarly historical at all


-Question marks indicated data I was unable to find


-In the armor column, the different categories are to be understood as follows :

B stands for Main Belt
Bh stands for transversal bulkhead
D stands for main deck
Barb stands for Barbettes

these are by no means intended a precise description of armor, they're just a way for the reader to appreciate what kind of resistance could be expected from the ship in general. 

A category missing does not necessarly mean that there was no armor present

 

Commentary :

As one can see, this is a light cruiser branch. I decided to split CL and CA and make two different branches. In this CL branch, 8 out of 9 are drawn and/or built by Italy. 4 of them sailed and were always intended for Italian service. 4 were various stage of Italian proposals, projects or blueprints intended for use by various navies (Spain, Romania, Thailand, or Italy itself).
The remaining ship, Ancona, was a german cruiser from WWI received in the 20s ; although its incarnation here is that of a projected rearmament process drafted in the mid 30s to transform her into an AA cruiser, that would be cancelled due to its price.

 

If I have anything to comment, it's mostly that due to this being a CL branch, the ships can easily appear 1-tier overtiered, although I believe balance is possible and not even too hard to achieve with the right gameplay. These ships mostly shone by their speed and AP salvo precision and penetration, so gameplay should articulate mostly around precise AP shots rather than quick peppering. Torpedoes were low-range, low-power and are thus more of a bonus than a real good weapon.

 

TII : Quarto
A symbol of Italian sea power during WWI, Quarto was an old light cruiser but for her time she was actually very good. With a decent speed and armament, she shone mostly by her reliability and makes a nice small start for a CL branch.

 

TIII : Ancona (AA cruiser conversion proposal)


rn-ancona-as-aa-cruiser.jpg?w=648&h=9999

 

I could be called names for proposing the conversion of a german cruiser specifically when I dissed the german cruiserr in OP's branch, although I am ready to defend this choice.  Besides the completely original gameplay that it would bring, it stays in line when  one considers displacement, size, armor, and overall gameplay for the low tiers. Armed with DD-caliber canons of low-power, that she compensates by number, this Ancona is a unique breed that brings something special, at the cost of a little continuity bump due to relying more on peppering a target than precise salvos of few guns.
I feel important to note I have incorrectly but intentionally kept the ship's original speed, which sould have fallen after the rework to 21kn.

 

Note : one disliking this choice may imagine lowering Etna and putting Capitani Romani at tier IV. I did not go through with it despite the better continuity it would bring, because I decided to use Capitani Romani as a TX DD and didn't want to duplicate her.

 

TIV : Etna
Originally called Taksin, it was a Thailand order to Italy for decent CLs. When the order was cancelled, Italy decided to change the plans and rearm the ships : torpedoes and catapult were removed, guns were changed to 135mm, many AA guns of 65 and 20mm were added, a radar was also added etc...
For its time (launched in the 40s), it was weak and small and couldn't really compete with CLs, hence its lower tiering despite its age.

 

TV / VI / VII : Giussano, d'Aosta, Abruzzi
Starting from TV to VII the Condottieri superclass, I do not have much to say there, mainly because Condottieri are similar and because two of them are already IG.
The reason I choose to skip Cadorn and Montecuccoli so that progression between tiers still meant relevant changes : between Giussano and d'Aosta, turret model, armor, seaworthiness, displacement and size, aviation facilities amongst others were heavily changed.

 

TVIII : UP 90 bis - 152mm variant

 

UP90mod.jpg

 

In the 30s, when Romani started investigating the possibility of aquiring cruisers, Italy made proposals. Amongst it was Up90, a big gun cruiser with 254mm main guns in two triple turrets.
When the design was rejected, a possible variant using three triple 152mm guns was drafted.

This cruiser actually ressembles Abruzzi quite a lot, because the hull design was inspired by the latest Condottieri batch ; as such, the cruiser first meant as "big guns on a CL hull" and became a honest to good CL when it was redesigned with 152mm guns.
It could be thus considered as a distance offspring of Abruzzi with somewhat improved armor, size, displacement, secondaries and AA.

 

TIX : Costanzo Ciano

 

rm-costanzo-ciano-cl.jpg?w=648

 

A 1939 warship design. It was meant as leader for a brand new squadron that would operate in the Indian Ocean, specifically off of Ethiopia and Somalia. The program that saw her specs detailed also included a whole "small fleet" of olders, submarines, escort destroyers meant for this theater of operation ; the whole Indian Ocean fleet would have been articulated around its three main units, 3 Costanzo Ciano cruisers.

Due to being a 1939 design, it benefits from the latest technology : the newst model of triple 152mm turrets, along with 90mm AA guns and new stabilized 20mm mounts. However, torpedoes don't seem to be mentionned.

Another draft existed for her, with 2 quadruple 152mm main guns.

 

TX : Project 986 - 152mm variant

 

xnB5iRM.jpg

 

Also known as Project XII to the Spanish, this was a late 30s cruiser design ordered by Spain. Three variants existed, two of them equipped with 203mm in 4*2 or 3*3 203mm turrets, while another was the same ship with 4*3 452mm, being, similarly to Mogami, a CA with CL turrets.

As a late design it benefits from 90mm, 37mm and 20mm AA guns ; it's much heavier and larger than other CLs due to it being primarly a CA, and as such, it also wields a better armor ; it mounts quadruple tubes, which is uncommon for an Italian-drafted CL ; and finally, its powerplant was to generate a very great power on a streamlined hull expected to exceed 37kn, an amazing speed for a cruiser.

 

Naturally, the fact that I have a CL branch means I also have a CA branch, but I will avoid presenting it here for my point above was to try and make as best of an example as I could of a correct techtree proposal presentation, and it would also probably make my post even longer than the moral dictates. Though if anyone is interested in seeing and/or debating of the above branch with me you can always send me an MP~

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6 hours ago, ROBBYD said:

Nicely presented, but if they are like the other two on the game at present they would not be a line I would grind

Remember that Duca D'aosta and Duca Degli Abruzzi class cruiser are part of a class of ships called the 'Condottieri-Class'. Yes there the same, However they can be altered with the Strength of the main guns, AA Defences, Torpedoes or no torps at all. Just a thought.

 

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29 minutes ago, LastButterfly said:

And since we're on topic, why "Attilio Regolo" ? Why not Capitani Romani ? I understand why you'd avoide Aosta and Abruzzi cause they're already IG, but here, why don't you take the class leader ?

Because Attlio Regolo is the first of the class. There was no Capitani Romani. Capitani Romani only refers to the whole class being named after roman military leaders. Kind of like the RN DDs all are named after first in class, not the letter or theme that makes up their naming scheme, even if one usually calls it the "A-class", "I-class", "J-class", "L-class" and "Battle-class".

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37 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Because Attlio Regolo is the first of the class. There was no Capitani Romani. Capitani Romani only refers to the whole class being named after roman military leaders. Kind of like the RN DDs all are named after first in class, not the letter or theme that makes up their naming scheme, even if one usually calls it the "A-class", "I-class", "J-class", "L-class" and "Battle-class".

 

Ah, certainly, then, it's a defendable point. My bad.

 

However, "groups" or "types" instead of class leaders were a common thing for Italians, and while they don't refer to a single ship and describe a class or superclass as a type, if the designation is more widely used, doesn't it seem more intuitive ?

I'm confident someone would understand me if I say "Tier something will be occupied by the Soldati class" ; while I believe less people would if I said "Tier something will be occupied by the Camicia Nera class".

 

Besides, no widely used class name means using a personallized class name by using "the first" is subjected to even more debate. What date do you use ? Laying down of the keel, launching, or completion ?

 

I understand your point, be sure of that. But when most sources refer to the classes under a type or group name instead of a leader ship, it's more confusing than anything to use a ship name, for which one to use is often debatable, it speaks less to general public and doesn't align with the most common name used to refer to the class outside.

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On 11/29/2018 at 5:58 PM, Riselotte said:

Trento is more likely a T7 and Zara a T8. These two ships are not competitive at T9/10 and are far more suited for those tiers. Not to mention, these are the tiers were typically cruiser lines transition to heavy cruisers (Germans, French). Also because much of the rest on the list is not competitive on the stated tiers.

They need to have ‘pop-off’ turrets

 

:Smile_trollface:

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Only your Tier 6 is appropiately tiered. Every other ship you propose is either way overtiered or way undertiered.

For example: You propose Zara as a T10. A ship which was and is commonly seen as equal to Algerie. And Algerie is at T7.

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I applaud the effort @TicoXotaR made to introduce some kind of cruiser line for the Italian techtree.

 

Where    @LastButterfly goes all over the place criticizing this effort on the ships mentioned for technicalities, tiers and characteristics,  personally I am in favor of a more pragmatic approach:

 

Let Wargaming/Lesta studios take it as a starting point and just make at least 1 cruiser or battlleship line , up to tier 8 for a start would do . Been way to long for any news on this.

As a non-italian myself I can imagine  the Italian players (and the many, many Italian clans that are in this game), are very disappointed no progress is made in 3 years,  in making any Italian techtree line...

Perhaps @MrConway is willing to tickle the guys in St.Petersbug a little to work on this ?

This thread needs to be bumped to page 1 for this reason in my opinion.

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4 minutes ago, Garfield4 said:

Where    @LastButterfly goes all over the place criticizing this effort on the ships mentioned for tiers and characteristics

 

No, I have not criticized the effort. The effort is wonderful, we should have more people trying to be creative. I criticized the result.

While it may sound harsh to have work criticized, it's an unavoidable step to making better stuff and thus seeing one's effort more and more rewarded. Having made trees and known people who made their own for a while, and having had mine criticized thoroughly by the past and still these days, I figured I could try to do the same for OP.

 

Which he apparently liked, btw, since he thanked me for my opinion ; and as I said, I remain open for discussion since I am no expert, and it's only by opposing different views that a good effort ends up giving a good result.

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On 12/11/2018 at 7:41 AM, Garfield4 said:

I applaud the effort @TicoXotaR made to introduce some kind of cruiser line for the Italian techtree.

 

Where    @LastButterfly goes all over the place criticizing this effort on the ships mentioned for technicalities, tiers and characteristics,  personally I am in favor of a more pragmatic approach:

 

Let Wargaming/Lesta studios take it as a starting point and just make at least 1 cruiser or battlleship line , up to tier 8 for a start would do . Been way to long for any news on this.

As a non-italian myself I can imagine  the Italian players (and the many, many Italian clans that are in this game), are very disappointed no progress is made in 3 years,  in making any Italian techtree line...

Perhaps @MrConway is willing to tickle the guys in St.Petersbug a little to work on this ?

This thread needs to be bumped to page 1 for this reason in my opinion.

 

Italian ships will come when they come, I cannot disclose what the plans are at this time, sorry.

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51 minutes ago, MrConway said:

 

Italian ships will come when they come, I cannot disclose what the plans are at this time, sorry.

But you said 'when' ;)

I just received the Duco D'aosta. Very different kind of AP cruiser, very fun. I am looking forward to this line.

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