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Duke_of_Lauenburg

Analysis of AA rework and Ship/CV-interaction

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I read all of it, and it's a really good writeup on the the reworked CV gameplay mechanics.

 

But I'll take the reworked CV mechanics all day over the old mechanic we got now. Also the whole sector thing sounded cool, but it's implementation got over-simplified and bad at the same time.

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To add to the above:

The only difference I've noticed between test 2 and 3 is that now a burst will spawn directly on your planes at certain intervals. Annoying for sure, but not enough to do anything meaningful before the strike has expended most of their ordinance.

 

Skilled CV players have actually become far, FAR more dominant in the rework than in the current iteration. I currently maintain over twice my CV average damage in my Midway and can already achieve a topkek 150k in the Ranger.

Meanwhile newcomers or potatoes too have become more useless. So much for fixing the skill gap.

 

Killing DDs is a cakewalk, had a game in which I killed 4 DDs and assisted in the kill of the fifth in the opening 6 minutes of the match in my Lexington (to put this into perspective, in the current RTS version I'd be about finishing up my SECOND strike after 6 minutes). Rest assured that I can pull that in any other USN CV as well. Highlight of the day was killing an Akizuki in a SINGLE DB attack a minute into the match with my Midway without a detonation, although to be fair that has remained the exception. Usually you need two or three attacks, but it's rare that a DD survives a strike (and I did kill a second DD shortly after the Akizuki, putting my team 2 ships up in the opening 2 minutes of the match). Even if he does though he'll usually be fodder for whatever DD on your team he runs in to.

Likewise cruisers melt under your drops. BBs are the most damage resistant but they also suffer the most from DoTs, making them nice farming material to reward yourself with once all priority targets have been cleared out which doesn't take all that long. If you hate the Conqueror, you're going to uninstall the game in rage because of USN DBs.

 

4 hours ago, Duke_of_Lauenburg said:

Oh, it seems to still scatter planes, but I still got hit pretty reliable by rockets and bombs while it was active, maybe the actual Cv testers can tell me how much the scattering stopped them from doing something.

 

In my experience DFAA does nothing but intensify the amount and damage of flak bursts (as it states on the consumable description), aka it's completely worthless due to the ridiculously high plane speeds making the AI lead so far off it's not even in your general vicinity if you slow down or turn just slightly, which you will inevitably do to get into an ideal attack position. Said speed also allows you to reach targets from across the map within ~30 seconds, right when DCP runs out if your target has been saving it. Convenient, isn't it?

 

Generally speaking USN torpedo aiming is incredibly fast when you're out of combat and gets significantly worse under AA. At least that's my theory, I'll have to play a few more matches to confirm that.

 

In conclusion AA is pretty much worthless against anyone who has some brains (which to be fair can't be said about the majority of the playerbase). If you find yourself under attack by a skilled CV player, bottom tier or not, you may as well quit back to port. No amount of fighters, DFAA, AA skills or AA stacking with allies is going to save you.

Unless ofc you're in a CV yourself. As the only class CVs actually have pretty brutal AA on top of their CAP so it's rare that a squad survives beyond the first attack.

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I dislike games with the current itteration of CVs; this new CVs in the game might just end my WOWs carreer :cap_fainting:

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My comment is directed to the Ship/CV interaction & for the tier 4 ships/CVs.

Two games with two human CV players on each side and  2- 3 other human players.

I happened to random play DDs both battles.

I ended up sinking 3 of the 4 enemy human reworked CV players. That should have guaranteed two wins (but only got 1 due to a blatant WG AI Bot cheat).

Maybe I got very lucky or maybe this whole rework idea is just plain dumb.

This proposed CV rework is, imho, a total FARCE, a bad joke.

There's going to be a lot of current CV players outright quitting the class if the FARCE is instituted.

I'm going to enjoy feasting on these new joke CVs.

 Whenever I kill one I'm going to say in 'All' chat …. "Next!"

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Nice wall of text, just what i wanted to rant about, everything looks cool but in praxis its not so, playing full aa on test is rewarding and estethicaly pleasing as staring into wall (with some cool sounds)! agreed 100% with ya 

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I didn't play much non CV ships. 1 game in Dallas, 1 in NC, 2 in DM and 1 in Courbet, everytime with AA upgrades but no skill linked to it.

 

At T4 AA guns seem pointless, even more than they are now.

 

At T6, AA guns are working better, but they feel weak against a T+2 CV. On the other hand catapult fighter can have a great impact on a squadron, killing several planes in a few seconds.

 

T8 NC is still a strong ship against CV, even if Midway planes are hard to kill.

 

DM is still a no fly zone, def aA shreds planes as if they are paper, and even without it, T8 CV suffer heavy casualties and can't do much damage to it.

 

On the switching side for AA guns, I agree that it is of little use. When a CV is attacking a teammate, it can be useful to help kill a few planes but when you are the target, as the planes attack quickly from 1 side then the other, it seems counter productive to use it.

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Very good write-up @Duke_of_Lauenburg. Though I do not play CV myself much, I like to keep up to date on any changes and of course AA is and important part of utility for any Cruiser, sad it seems to be rendered rather useless for now but maybe that'll change yet. :Smile_Default:

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Played some more, included the 'Update: Playing against good CVs'-section.

 

This will propably end my work on this topic, because the situation becomes more depressiv the deeper you delve into it, and knowing WG will push this through no matter what.

 

On 11/28/2018 at 7:48 AM, El2aZeR said:

Killing DDs is a cakewalk, had a game in which I killed 4 DDs and assisted in the kill of the fifth in the opening 6 minutes of the match in my Lexington

 

Well, I guess I got lucky then in my DD games - that is insane. Updated my article to keep it up-to-date with my knowledge about the topic.

 

On 11/28/2018 at 7:48 AM, El2aZeR said:

In my experience DFAA does nothing but intensify the amount and damage of flak bursts

 

Well, thanks for that information. 'Button to make your AA sound better' is, I believe, the best description they can give to the consumable now.

 

On 11/28/2018 at 7:48 AM, El2aZeR said:

In conclusion AA is pretty much worthless against anyone who has some brains (which to be fair can't be said about the majority of the playerbase). If you find yourself under attack by a skilled CV player, bottom tier or not, you may as well quit back to port. No amount of fighters, DFAA, AA skills or AA stacking with allies is going to save you

 

Yup, that's what I found as well. RIP

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On 11/28/2018 at 6:48 AM, El2aZeR said:

To add to the above:

The only difference I've noticed between test 2 and 3 is that now a burst will spawn directly on your planes at certain intervals. Annoying for sure, but not enough to do anything meaningful before the strike has expended most of their ordinance.

 

Skilled CV players have actually become far, FAR more dominant in the rework than in the current iteration. I currently maintain over twice my CV average damage in my Midway and can already achieve a topkek 150k in the Ranger.

Meanwhile newcomers or potatoes too have become more useless. So much for fixing the skill gap.

 

Killing DDs is a cakewalk, had a game in which I killed 4 DDs and assisted in the kill of the fifth in the opening 6 minutes of the match in my Lexington (to put this into perspective, in the current RTS version I'd be about finishing up my SECOND strike after 6 minutes). Rest assured that I can pull that in any other USN CV as well. Highlight of the day was killing an Akizuki in a SINGLE DB attack a minute into the match with my Midway without a detonation, although to be fair that has remained the exception. Usually you need two or three attacks, but it's rare that a DD survives a strike (and I did kill a second DD shortly after the Akizuki, putting my team 2 ships up in the opening 2 minutes of the match). Even if he does though he'll usually be fodder for whatever DD on your team he runs in to.

Likewise cruisers melt under your drops. BBs are the most damage resistant but they also suffer the most from DoTs, making them nice farming material to reward yourself with once all priority targets have been cleared out which doesn't take all that long. If you hate the Conqueror, you're going to uninstall the game in rage because of USN DBs.

 

 

In my experience DFAA does nothing but intensify the amount and damage of flak bursts (as it states on the consumable description), aka it's completely worthless due to the ridiculously high plane speeds making the AI lead so far off it's not even in your general vicinity if you slow down or turn just slightly, which you will inevitably do to get into an ideal attack position. Said speed also allows you to reach targets from across the map within ~30 seconds, right when DCP runs out if your target has been saving it. Convenient, isn't it?

 

Generally speaking USN torpedo aiming is incredibly fast when you're out of combat and gets significantly worse under AA. At least that's my theory, I'll have to play a few more matches to confirm that.

 

In conclusion AA is pretty much worthless against anyone who has some brains (which to be fair can't be said about the majority of the playerbase). If you find yourself under attack by a skilled CV player, bottom tier or not, you may as well quit back to port. No amount of fighters, DFAA, AA skills or AA stacking with allies is going to save you.

Unless ofc you're in a CV yourself. As the only class CVs actually have pretty brutal AA on top of their CAP so it's rare that a squad survives beyond the first attack.

 

This ^^.  Agree and came to the same conclusion when playing them.  DD's are easy so the amount of rage CV players will get now is going to be comical. 

 

Oh well, the majorly of you asked for the rework so here it is :cap_tea: Better the devil you know sometimes. 

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15 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

Oh well, the majorly of you asked for the rework so here it is :cap_tea: Better the devil you know sometimes

We didn't ask for that. What people hate about CVs is their ability to deliver DD levels of damage without incurring DD levels of risk.... If the rework doesn't correct that then it's a complete failure. By the sounds of it the planes are too fast, can attack too often, and defence against the CV, the heart of the entire matter, has been given no thought whatsoever. 

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2 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

We didn't ask for that. What people hate about CVs is their ability to deliver DD levels of damage without incurring DD levels of risk.... If the rework doesn't correct that then it's a complete failure. By the sounds of it the planes are too fast, can attack too often, and defence against the CV, the heart of the entire matter, has been given no thought whatsoever. 

 

And what did you expect? 

 

Do you think for one second that casual players will play this if they are subject to the same level of AA we have now?? Not one will and many don't because of that reason as well as skill gap. 

 

And people where STILL moaning that CV's were OP. :Smile_facepalm: You know when you used to press that magical button and all those nasty planes evaporated? Well now they are still buzzing around your head setting you on fire...Constantly. Or when that CV missed that Bomb/Torp drop on you and had to re-load? Yeah, i'm still buzzing around your head with ammo to last a lifetime. 

 

They have taken away the skill gap and made it into a freak show for consoles. BATTLESTAIONS MIDWAY mk2.

 

And when you have TWO CV players ganging up on 1 DD?   It's a sorry sorry sight. 

 

Alot of people asked for a rework because they, god know, thought CV's were OP without even playing them.  

 

"So yeah, the majority of players asked for this rework." 

 

Play a few CV games now in middle/high tiers and get back to me with how it's going (your highest is a tier 6).  You need to experience it . Coming up against a Buddy with defensive AA is a completely different kettle of fish compared to even tier 8-10 Battleships, never mind Cruisers.

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3 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

Do you think for one second that casual players will play this if they are subject to the same level of AA we have now?? Not one will and many don't because of that reason as well as skill gap. 

I see them playing destroyers and cruisers, one dev strike away from being back in port..... CVs should combine the overall durability of a BB, the ability to make a mistake and come back from it, but their individual attacking units should be as fragile as a DD, and they shouldn't have the ability to dev strike things or nag ships to death without there being a fair counter strategy. 

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One question regarding the AA defense for ships:

Maybe I'm wrong but I read the catapult fighter will be still available (and also the skill to double it). But I've also read that these planes will remain only 30s in the air (-60s on BB / -330s for CA???). I've never seen them in action in those testserver vids.

Are they worth it in the future? Just asking because I'm planning some captain skills.

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So... if one were to salvage this working as intended of a rework, what could be done?

 

-remove "engine boost" from aircraft or cut down its effectiveness?

-increase time gap between launching squadrons?

-???

 

One thing that strikes me is no direct control over AA. If CV players directly control their flyboys, then players on the surface should be able to manually aim AA guns, then you would have skill vs skill (somewhat). Especially DD and CA/CL could make use of that, BB could be stuck with automatic AA:Smile_trollface:  It would in theory solve difference in amount of guns per ship

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12 minutes ago, Woman_At_Work said:

One question regarding the AA defense for ships:

Maybe I'm wrong but I read the catapult fighter will be still available (and also the skill to double it). But I've also read that these planes will remain only 30s in the air (-60s on BB / -330s for CA???). I've never seen them in action in those testserver vids.

Are they worth it in the future? Just asking because I'm planning some captain skills.

Catapult fighter has a shorter duration for BB and cruisers but what has also changed is that you don't simply launch 1 plane, but a full squadron (between 3 and 6 planes depending on tier). It is then much more efficient against enemy planes.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Panocek said:

So... if one were to salvage this working as intended of a rework, what could be done?

I have two ideas:

 

1) The one requiring actual work: Reintroduce planes as a limited resource. This will again balance planes as a limited resource against AA as a limited/dwindling resource (in the current version, destruction of AA mounts is balanced by planes being a limited resource).

 

You could get rid of total deplaning by allowing the CV player to launch only minimum strength squadrons after a certain number of aircraft losses. So that the CV will always have something to do, but if you throw away your planes you'll be less powerful in the end game.

 

2) The band-aid solution: Remove module destruction (at least for AA mounts).

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On 11/30/2018 at 9:54 AM, invicta2012 said:

I see them playing destroyers and cruisers, one dev strike away from being back in port..... CVs should combine the overall durability of a BB, the ability to make a mistake and come back from it, but their individual attacking units should be as fragile as a DD, and they shouldn't have the ability to dev strike things or nag ships to death without there being a fair counter strategy. 

 

"Counter Strategy"??? :Smile_facepalm:

 

Plane Kills:

 

Cleveland: 54

Texas: 32

Gilio: 21

Mino: 31

Lion: 47

NC: 31

Alabama: 36

Massa: 24

Gne: 42

Sharn: 29

Kuts: 28

Des: 30

Buff: 29

Atlanta: 50

Hipper: 29 

Bis: 24

FDG: 30

Kidd: 27

 

Sorry, did you mention sometime about "Counter strategy". :cap_tea:

 

That's not including WASD or support from any other ship.

 

I have never understood peoples problems with the old CV''s.

 

It's still in testing so hopefully things will change, but i'm not holding my breath i'm afraid. 

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17 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

I have two ideas:

 

1) The one requiring actual work: Reintroduce planes as a limited resource. This will again balance planes as a limited resource against AA as a limited/dwindling resource (in the current version, destruction of AA mounts is balanced by planes being a limited resource).

 

You could get rid of total deplaning by allowing the CV player to launch only minimum strength squadrons after a certain number of aircraft losses. So that the CV will always have something to do, but if you throw away your planes you'll be less powerful in the end game.

 

2) The band-aid solution: Remove module destruction (at least for AA mounts).

One solution would be increasing cooldown for every plane lost, lets say 2s penalty per plane.

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21 minutes ago, Panocek said:

One solution would be increasing cooldown for every plane lost, lets say 2s penalty per plane.

 

Planes already regenerate fairly slow, the actual issue is that you practically never lose enough planes for that to ever matter unless you potato hard. Even with fixed plane reserves added it wouldn't make a difference because whereas previously you only needed to destroy two waves before the CV starts running out, now you have to deal with the full reserve amount because fighters don't exist anymore.

E.g. to deplane a Midway you'd have to kill all 116 planes with only AA. In the current RTS version you're "only" dealing with about 70 and that's with actually useful AA, lengthy pauses between attacks and the CV helping you with fighters.

 

And quite honestly if it were easy for players to shoot down planes then reworked CVs would be completely useless as their only purpose is to deal damage. If it is not however they automatically become overpowered UNLESS DoT is nerfed hard - to the detriment of other classes.

 

This rework is a fundamental failure. I see no way with which it can be salvaged.

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3 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Planes already regenerate fairly slow, the actual issue is that you practically never lose enough planes for that to ever matter unless you potato hard. Even with fixed plane reserves added it wouldn't make a difference because whereas previously you only needed to destroy two waves before the CV starts running out, now you have to deal with the full reserve amount because fighters don't exist anymore.

E.g. to deplane a Midway you'd have to kill all 116 planes with only AA. In the current RTS version you're "only" dealing with about 70 and that's with actually useful AA, lengthy pauses between attacks and the CV helping you with fighters.

 

And quite honestly if it were easy for players to shoot down planes then reworked CVs would be completely useless as their only purpose is to deal damage. If it is not however they automatically become overpowered UNLESS DoT is nerfed hard - to the detriment of other classes.

 

This rework is a fundamental failure. I see no way with which it can be salvaged.

AA intensity affecting drop accuracy (not due to DFAA), "minor flooding/fires" with half the duration as DoT nerf to carriers. Or go back to RTS, but with rework squadrons - Midway flies around with 12 TB squad, but only 3/4 attack. Fighters could be as multirole fighters - can only autoattack (left click) squadrons, but carry minor ordnance against ships - small HE bomb for IJN, rockets for USN.

 

Just throwing thoughts

 

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So unlimited planes + nerfed AA + reduced utility of defAA. This looks even more retarded than the current CVs.

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These new aa mechanics seem like the dumbest thing ever. Carriers shouldnt even be able to drop the most powerful aa ship in the game fully specced into aa... Thats just stupid.

 

dfaa needs to spread the planes out, otherwise it makes aa cruisers pointless.

 

aa range needs to go back to what it was, otherwise teamplay vs carriers becomes impossible, and battleships are balanced around this.

 

aa needs to not be random at all, it should be a constant dps aura, or atleast as close to that as you can come with the flak mechanic, making it an rng fest is the stupidest thing i can think of.

 

All in all: Do you want another aa-creep where every ship suddenly needs stronger and stronger aa? Cause making aa cruisers useless is exactly how you get an aa creep started.

 

 

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It's sad really that basically everything I expected (and feared) came true. Even worse however is that I hadn't expected WG to turn AA defense into a pure RNG gamble and basically eradicating the ability to protect other ships with your AA.

 

 

This rework is such a conceptional failure it should be aborted and WG go back to the drawing board. But hey, that ain't happening because quite apparently WG wants to force the issue just as hard as they were ignoring the previous CV issues until they flipped the table rather than actually work to resolve any of those.

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Played the test server a few times, but only once as a CV.

1st iteration - AA didn't exist for any practical purpose (didn't seem to matter what ship or fitting out done)

2nd iteration - reverse of above, AA seemed OP (but I mainly payed strong AA ships for that one)

3rd iteration - not tried yet.

 

But... I am baffled by the logic behind the 'sector' aspect - on small ships (DD's) and a few other ships that have centrally mounted AA it has some logic to it. But for most cruiser, all BBs and all CV's, do they physically  move the gun mounts from one side of he ship to the other?? Blame it on the FC?.. but each side has their own on larger ships. Just seems to be complexity for complexity sake, or, 'how do we get the player to think they are participating in this aspect' perhaps.

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