BB AP nerf needs tweaking (or buff expert loader)

[NothingButTheRain]

32 minutes ago, Kartoffelmos said:

If anything, this change promotes shooting at destroyers whenever they are spotted

Well, this I doubt as the main complains about BB AP was to get blapped from long ranges (from people taking potshots whenever a DD got spotted briefly, even if there are easier targets available to them).

I actually take fewer potshots at DDs now since these changes as the chances have increased that I have other (more juicy) targets to shoot at now. So I tend to ignore DDs more whenever I have AP loaded. Or often even when I have HE loaded as HE dispersion is often pretty sorry. And switching takes too long even with the skill, might as well get rid of the shells I had already loaded on a more secure hit.

[ClappingLollies]

5 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Last bit, that's what islands are for. And map awareness. If you are playing a cruiser (particularly one that spends more time in open water like the Frenchy or Rusky CAs) then you MUST use your brain so you actually do not get hit from multiple directions. If you still get hit all the time from all angles then you're doing it wrong.

 

 And btw basically everything is 'forced' to play far back or else they will get torped. The only class that can get in real close like that, are destroyers themselves. And they are supposed to do so.

 

Lately I've been playing Donskoi a lot actually, it's a pretty good ship even when stock.

 

And I sure as heck prefer games with 5 BBs and 4/5CA/CL each team and just a few DDs instead of 5 BBs and 4 DDs each team. Because when sailing such a cruiser, BBs are basically just big XP pinatas to me. How one can think this is too difficult is really questionable. Or they just shouldn't play cruiser, imo.

 

Things would change if it were the old 5/2/5 battles but thank the gods this hardly ever happens anymore 

That is the thing. When playing either Cruisers, DD's or CV's you have to think ahead. You have to look at the map and use your brain. Even if you do all that you can still get blapped. For making 0 mistakes. 

Same goes for DD's.

 

That is not the case with BB's. That is why a change like this is a good thing. Not bad. 

[zappori]

Just because idiots at WG are too lazy to implement proper radar that doesnt go through islands, you have to compensate and give something to DDs in form of more snowball sh1t mechanics and nerfs

[NothingButTheRain]

14 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

That is the thing. When playing either Cruisers, DD's or CV's you have to think ahead. You have to look at the map and use your brain. Even if you do all that you can still get blapped. For making 0 mistakes. 

Same goes for DD's.

 

That is not the case with BB's. That is why a change like this is a good thing. Not bad. 

What? Are you saying that as a BB player thinking ahead is not required at all?

Are you sure about that? Absolutely positive?

 

You're being funny today!

 

Your posts today have been really condescending towards BB players in general. That's foreboding for a bad dialogue, I'd prefer you to be a little bit more serious. Or at all being serious.

[NothingButTheRain]

Just now, zappori said:

Just because idiots at WG are too lazy to implement proper radar that doesnt go through islands, you have to compensate and give something to DDs in form of more snowball sh1t mechanics and nerfs

So I suppose you are on MortenTardos team? What great timing

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 minute ago, MortenTardo said:

That has nothing to do with balance. It should be that equally skilled players have equal amount of strengths and weaknesses in the different classes. That is just not the case now. One of the classes are so idiot friendly that the players don't learn anything even after thousands of battles. And as soon as they have to slightly relay on team mates the players whine. 

But some will not even learn even after a million battles. There's only SO MUCH people can learn. Some never will understand or have just lack of talent.

Also, the grind/P2W is such that you never really have to learn. You can just play 1 line, 1 type and potato your way to T10 in ~ a thousand games or less.

But THAT is also part of the problem - THESE people do not rely on team mates. They rely on 'potato, rinse, repeat' and get there anyway.

And then OTHERS (it may be the ones that whine... and they may be correct) have to rely on exactly THESE team mates... Life is like a box of chocolates...

 

1 minute ago, MortenTardo said:

I don't know about you, but i'm not in that category. 

I play less and less. Although i do read about changes and so forth. Educate myself. Therefore my WR is steadily increasing. Not hovering around 45-55%. 

BTW you can be good in games, without being sweaty. 

Agreed that experience/expertise can be gained over time. I think at 12k battles you should be better than me at 10% of that. 

Maybe I will be that level too when I have your number of games, but it will not be next month I promise you that.

 

Especially since I am still at the 'grinding' stages - lots of captains not at 19 points and lots to discover. 

Some of those 'unicums' really I do expect them to be in one of the above extremes. Doing nothing but train to get better... 

But the thing is, the same thing happens for the ones that are in T10 but actually are no good at all... except they play A LOT.

 

Now how do you think the new CV meta

is gonna work out... console-ready!

 

1 minute ago, MortenTardo said:

You just answered it yourself. You can't blap a BB with DD AP.

Yes, you can blap a BB with DD torpedoes in some cases but that mostly requires you to have good torp RNG spread, good enough torps, the BB player have to be blind, deaf and can't press W, A, S or D. 

Meh. Pressing WASD is maybe even harder than not to sit broadside in a smokescreen... or maybe not. Agreed though it's pretty lame.

But about 'requires': If you use torps, it even shows you a white line where to fire them. Dumbed down to the max, here we go. 

I wonder what is more dumb-BLAP-capable, Dds or BBs? And did they whine? Yes they do, same as BB drivers. When smoke nerfed,  when radar came.... 

 

BTW 'requires good torp RNG spread...'... ahem... same as having good RNG when firing AP (or HE). Baaaadddd reason IMO. 

I paid a lot for goats sacrificed to RNGesus, how about you? Did it help? What kind of goats did you send, I wanna know as it didn't help me... 

 

1 minute ago, MortenTardo said:

I agree that cruisers are the ones that gets shafted the most tho. 

The basic issue is, can you BLAP it.  But I do not see cruisers being able to BLAP anything. 

Yes I see SOME cruisers able to DoT-BLAP, which is baaaaad as well. Same dumbed down thing.

 

For BBs and DDs though:

So...    can we BLAP IT:

[BLUB__BLUB]

28 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Well, this I doubt as the main complains about BB AP was to get blapped from long ranges (from people taking potshots whenever a DD got spotted briefly, even if there are easier targets available to them).

I actually take fewer potshots at DDs now since these changes as the chances have increased that I have other (more juicy) targets to shoot at now. So I tend to ignore DDs more whenever I have AP loaded. Or often even when I have HE loaded as HE dispersion is often pretty sorry. And switching takes too long even with the skill, might as well get rid of the shells I had already loaded on a more secure hit.

Guess who told me I should shoot DDs more.... 

 

26 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

That is the thing. When playing either Cruisers, DD's or CV's you have to think ahead. You have to look at the map and use your brain. Even if you do all that you can still get blapped. For making 0 mistakes. 

Same goes for DD's.

 

That is not the case with BB's. That is why a change like this is a good thing. Not bad. 

Not the case for DDs or CVS or whatever either. 

In ALL OF THEM you can just potato your way to T10. 

Enter game, try BLAP, fire HE, whatever, get killed, rinse, repeat.

 

DDs are even cheaper than BBs... even faster to T10.

[Prospect_b]

11 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

What? Are you saying that as a BB player thinking ahead is not required at all?

Are you sure about that? Absolutely positive?

 

You're being funny today!

 

Your posts today have been really condescending towards BB players in general. That's foreboding for a bad dialogue, I'd prefer you to be a little bit more serious. Or at all being serious.

Maybe learn to read.

 

Good BB players think ahead, yes. So do good DD/cruiser players.

 

His point is if you play with one hand and other one busy while watching youporn on second screen, you can still play bb and do the average bbkevin things. With cruiser or DD you'll die, instantly.

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 minute ago, Saiyko said:

Maybe learn to read.

 

Good BB players think ahead, yes. So do good DD/cruiser players.

 

His point is if you play with one hand and other one busy while watching youporn on second screen, you can still play bb and do the average bbkevin things. With cruiser or DD you'll die, instantly.

This makes sense. Yes you'll 'live' longer. But that's not to say playing DD requires skill.

Because the rinse-repeat method works just as well with DDs or cruisers. They just die sooner.

 

[Kartoffelmos]

54 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Well, this I doubt as the main complains about BB AP was to get blapped from long ranges (from people taking potshots whenever a DD got spotted briefly, even if there are easier targets available to them).

I actually take fewer potshots at DDs now since these changes as the chances have increased that I have other (more juicy) targets to shoot at now. So I tend to ignore DDs more whenever I have AP loaded. Or often even when I have HE loaded as HE dispersion is often pretty sorry. And switching takes too long even with the skill, might as well get rid of the shells I had already loaded on a more secure hit.

 

Two overpenetrations from an Amagi is literally 11 % of a Gearing's hit points (with SE). If your own destroyer wins the destroyer duel, you gain a capture points advantage and there will be one less destroyer to worry about. The way I see it, the only target that's more important is a radar cruiser, so ignoring destroyers is a huge mistake in my opinion. Well, unless if you can devastate some other ship but still.

[ClappingLollies]

52 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

So I suppose you are on MortenTardos team? What great timing

Team Tardo always win! 

 

53 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

What? Are you saying that as a BB player thinking ahead is not required at all?

Are you sure about that? Absolutely positive?

 

You're being funny today!

 

Your posts today have been really condescending towards BB players in general. That's foreboding for a bad dialogue, I'd prefer you to be a little bit more serious. Or at all being serious.

I'm saying that all the other classes are more demanding. Good BB players are obviously good players. Not denying that.  

 

I play BB's as well. I'm not "anti BB". But you cannot deny that BB's are much easier to play than the other classes.

That is just a fact. BB's are only just a tiny bit less self sufficient after this "nerf". That is good.

I always hated when i got 15k dmg BB AP salvos when shooting at a DD that made 0 mistakes. Just god screwed for doing what he should do. 

[DFens_666]

6 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

I play BB's as well. I'm not "anti BB". But you cannot deny that BB's are much easier to play than the other classes.

 

They are just so frustrating to play....

Oh full broadside "2 overpens"... still broadsiding half a minute later "1 pen didnt count + 1 overpen"

 

Somehow i feel, BBs tend to have a harder time impacting the game - a little bit like HE spammer Cruisers (that dont have Radar). You can make plays happen, but when your team doesnt cash in on that, then you are screwed. Thats how i felt today in my NC match which we also almost lost, we won by 3 points in the last second.

[GulvkluderGuld]

6 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

No, because:

 - a BB 'rushing a DD' is actually a bit laughable... Imagine a New york at full 'speed' 

- Besides if the BB does that... how will it give a full broadside... OK maybe it's a Frenchie (but the dispersion will make sure not all hit).

And those Frenchies have a baaaaaad problem if DDs attack them from the rear... 

 

I think that if you calculate a FULL (100% hit) broadside to kill a DD, that's what it will be indeed.

You'll NEVER kill him in 1 volley if it is a full HP DD. 

 

 

Thought it was being argued that ONE volley should kill a dd no matter what. 

 

A full Yamato Broadside is 9 shells:

AP: 9 x 1480 (AP overpens) = 13320 damage which is about 65-70% of regular tier X DDs hp. It would take at least 3 regular pens to hit 100% hp.

HE: 9 x 7300/3 = 21.900 which is indeed enough to oneshot (even some dds with SE) provided all shells hit and do damage (unlikely since a few will break engine, rudder, AA mounts etc and do no actual damage)

 

A full Montana broadside is 12 shells:

AP: 12 x 1350 = 16200 which is still about 3k short of a full hp dd without SE

HE: 12x5700 = 22800 which is enough to oneshot all but the Khaba and Harugumo (if they use SE).

 

So I think we can safely say that theoretically oneshots are possible using HE, but very unlikely. 

We end up with 2 shots instead.

The exception was detonations (before it got changed), so nowadays using BB guns, it is only really possible to oneshot Khaba, Harugumo or any DD < 75% hp.

 

1. While the concept does seem a bit exotic to comtemplate even a charging New york might be dangerous and impossible to avoid. Say for example the DD cant leave the smoke without getting spotted (planes overhead and friendly CV busy trying to snipe enemy CV with autodrops)

2. This shouldn't come as a surprise, but you can't oneshot a bow in BB with torpedoes since those launch in a spread (unless RN). So the DDs has into a better position on the flank where he can guarantee multiple torp hits.

And guess what can shoot while it does that? Also, it takes time for torps to arrive, so unless the BB is an utter moron (or Warpite 72s turret traverse) a DD will have to eat at least one volley from the BB before torps impact.

 

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Thought it was being argued that ONE volley should kill a dd no matter what. 

 

A full Yamato Broadside is 9 shells:

AP: 9 x 1480 (AP overpens) = 13320 damage which is about 65-70% of regular tier X DDs hp. It would take at least 3 regular pens to hit 100% hp.

HE: 9 x 7300/3 = 21.900 which is indeed enough to oneshot (even some dds with SE) provided all shells hit and do damage (unlikely since a few will break engine, rudder, AA mounts etc and do no actual damage)

 

A full Montana broadside is 12 shells:

AP: 12 x 1350 = 16200 which is still about 3k short of a full hp dd without SE

HE: 12x5700 = 22800 which is enough to oneshot all but the Khaba and Harugumo (if they use SE).

 

So I think we can safely say that theoretically oneshots are possible using HE, but very unlikely. 

We end up with 2 shots instead.

The exception was detonations (before it got changed), so nowadays using BB guns, it is only possible to oneshot Khaba, Harugumo or any DD < 75% hp.

Yeah I think it's fair now, or reasonably so at least. Well maybe not if you are a T7 Bb getting uptiered and... but hey. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

1. While the concept does seem a bit exotic to comtemplate even a charging New york might be dangerous and impossible to avoid. Say for example the DD cant leave the smoke without getting spotted (planes overhead and friendly CV busy trying to snipe enemy CV with autodrops)

2. This shouldn't come as a surprise, but you can't oneshot a bow in BB with torpedoes since those launch in a spread (unless RN). So the DDs has into a better position on the flank where he can guarantee multiple torp hits.

And guess what can shoot while it does that? Also, it takes time for torps to arrive, so unless the BB is an utter moron (or Warpite 72s turret traverse) a DD will have to eat at least one volley from the BB before torps impact.

Why would it be exotic? I have hunted DDs a in a New york, even with a fair degree of success. Granted, it was when we still had Fubukis at that tier. 

Lately I have been up to chasing T9 DDs with the Colorado. Well, more like: can't run - can't hide - so let's go down swinging!

[GulvkluderGuld]

19 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Yeah I think it's fair now, or reasonably so at least. Well maybe not if you are a T7 Bb getting uptiered and... but hey. 

 

Why would it be exotic? I have hunted DDs a in a New york, even with a fair degree of success. Granted, it was when we still had Fubukis at that tier. 

Lately I have been up to chasing T9 DDs with the Colorado. Well, more like: can't run - can't hide - so let's go down swinging!

To me it both feels and seems okay, having run the numbers.

The Gneisenau might get shafted, but it has secondaries going for it and if all fails, it has torps of its own

 

Fubuki used to be good afaik. And still faster than the NY!

The introduction of German BBs killed the mid-tier USN ones and Colorado in particular for me. I used to love the old lady, and I think it is still my most played ship.

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

To me it both feels and seems okay, having run the numbers.

The Gneisenau might get shafted, but it has secondaries going for it and if all fails, it has torps of its own

Those German BBs are quite good, but some of their captains must be drunk, N00bs or both...

 

2 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Fubuki used to be good afaik. And still faster than the NY!

Well duh. But to chase it, is really fun. Usually it resulted in a chat and a friend to play divisions with.

 

2 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

The introduction of German BBs killed the mid-tier USN ones and Colorado in particular for me. I used to love the old lady, and I think it is still my most played ship.

Colorado is good, most what ruins it is the MM. It's no fun in T9, not at all. 

Texas and Arizona are some of my favourites. I have no idea why I have bad stats in them.

Sure I could do more damage, but usually I am in team with a DD (and he finishes them off).

While we end up top half (usually even top 3) of the team (win or lose) we still get bad PR too.

Something is rotten ion the state of Denmark... but well, they are still fun.

 

I really do not understand why people want to play high tier matches. So boring.

[NothingButTheRain]

1 hour ago, MortenTardo said:

Team Tardo always win! 

 

I'm saying that all the other classes are more demanding. Good BB players are obviously good players. Not denying that.  

 

I play BB's as well. I'm not "anti BB". But you cannot deny that BB's are much easier to play than the other classes.

That is just a fact. BB's are only just a tiny bit less self sufficient after this "nerf". That is good.

I always hated when i got 15k dmg BB AP salvos when shooting at a DD that made 0 mistakes. Just god screwed for doing what he should do. 

Well it is absolutely true that all other classes are more demanding. But this is also what makes the other classes more OP.

The higher the learning curve and the more an individual can project power through skill by playing a certain class alone, the more OP this class is 

This can be seen by looking at certain stats, like the difference in winrate (solo winrate and divisional winrate) between the best and worst players. And the closer this winrate gets to 100%, the more broken the ships is that he plays. Totally agree with this.

But that is not really my point anyway.

 

And saying you are not anti-BB "but it is just fact" is not very encouraging when reading that the one single class in which a single individual can project the least power, is supposedly just lazy or whatever anyone for that matter would want to call it.

 

BBs have (and this has similarities to what DFens wrote earlier) the least individual potential power projection of any class in the game (maybe except cruisers, that one might be open to debate), which by itself makes BB the least OP class. Interesting, isn't it?

[NothingButTheRain]

6 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Those German BBs are quite good, but some of their captains must be drunk, N00bs or both...

I'm remembering the times where I was aiming at one ship, and citadelling or setting fire to an unspotted ship parked somewhere near it 

 

[NothingButTheRain]

2 hours ago, Kartoffelmos said:

 

Two overpenetrations from an Amagi is literally 11 % of a Gearing's hit points (with SE). If your own destroyer wins the destroyer duel, you gain a capture points advantage and there will be one less destroyer to worry about. The way I see it, the only target that's more important is a radar cruiser, so ignoring destroyers is a huge mistake in my opinion. Well, unless if you can devastate some other ship but still.

Well, if the smallest ship in the game gets hit by the biggest shells in teh game, wouldn't it make sense for it to give and take the largest amount of damage relative to the ship anyway? Because to me that would actually make sense. And I'm pretty sure that hitting a citadel will cause even more damage.

 

And as a DD player you shouldn't get spotted all the time in the first place right? Your conceilment and map awareness are your armor. Especially since you can see that Amagi from a mile away and not vice versa.

[BLUB__BLUB]

Just now, NothingButTheRain said:

I'm remembering the times where I was aiming at one ship, and citadelling or setting fire to an unspotted ship parked somewhere near it 

That usually happens to me every 2/10 games. It is because a cruiser has read somewhere, he has to stick near a BB and use it as meatshield.

Or, when it is a cruiser, there is a BB next to it because in the game there are CVs. It's not really the famous German dispersion.

I've seen a teammate shoot a broadside New York from 5k though and miss all of  it. And he wasn't an idiot. THAT is dispersion.

 

But what I mean by 'n00Bs' is German BB drivers, sailing at 20km away, being detected, going in a straight line, I shoot - get citadel,

and they still keep going, shoot again - another cit, and stil... well you get what I mean (and then, when at <100HP, a cruiser kills him...)

 

 

[NothingButTheRain]

17 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

That usually happens to me every 2/10 games. It is because a cruiser has read somewhere, he has to stick near a BB and use it as meatshield.

Or, when it is a cruiser, there is a BB next to it because in the game there are CVs. It's not really the famous German dispersion.

I've seen a teammate shoot a broadside New York from 5k though and miss all of  it. And he wasn't an idiot. THAT is dispersion.

 

But what I mean by 'n00Bs' is German BB drivers, sailing at 20km away, being detected, going in a straight line, I shoot - get citadel,

and they still keep going, shoot again - another cit, and stil... well you get what I mean (and then, when at <100HP, a cruiser kills him...)

 

 

Lol, you don't actually need to stick your boat to the side of a BB for it to be your meatshield 

I suppose some people actually consider this, but let me explain to them.

I made a quick and dirty paintjob, this example is also what I would call using someone else as a meatshield, as he takes hits for me while preventing the enemies from advancing towards my position, while I spam HE from behind cover.

 

One doesn't have to be right next for to use someone as a meatshield.

 

I know you already know this, but perhaps these drawings will make it more clear for the n00bs you know 

 

But this here, in my book, also counts as using teammates as meatshields, without actually having to be really near to them 

[BLUB__BLUB]

18 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

But this here, in my book, also counts as using teammates as meatshields, without actually having to be really near to them 

 Well, usually I AM the meatshield, and that HE-thingy would be my div-mate ready to put some fish in some bottoms...

But when you want an AA-umbrella then you DO need to be close. Although I get some of those even when I use my Leander (which has no AA to speak of, but hey, they dunno...).

[zappori]

I mean do the people who are defending this sh1tstorm have even the basic understanding of how universe works? Do you really think an "overpen" would do no damage to a destroyer? I mean imagine if a yamato would puncture 9 holes all the way throughout the whole ship everything will be fine? It wouldn't, you'd have 9 holes in a ship and everybody would be dead. No engines. No torps. No people alive. Nothing. Yet in WG games its magically "OK" it was an overpen. Overpen doesnt imply a miss, it implies that your ship looks like a swiss cheese.

 

So retarded.

[ColonelPete]

45 minutes ago, zappori said:

I mean do the people who are defending this sh1tstorm have even the basic understanding of how universe works? Do you really think an "overpen" would do no damage to a destroyer? I mean imagine if a yamato would puncture 9 holes all the way throughout the whole ship everything will be fine? It wouldn't, you'd have 9 holes in a ship and everybody would be dead. No engines. No torps. No people alive. Nothing. Yet in WG games its magically "OK" it was an overpen. Overpen doesnt imply a miss, it implies that your ship looks like a swiss cheese.

 

So retarded.

The shells do NOT do no damage. What are you talking about?

[Yedwy]

55 minutes ago, zappori said:

I mean do the people who are defending this sh1tstorm have even the basic understanding of how universe works? Do you really think an "overpen" would do no damage to a destroyer? I mean imagine if a yamato would puncture 9 holes all the way throughout the whole ship everything will be fine? It wouldn't, you'd have 9 holes in a ship and everybody would be dead. No engines. No torps. No people alive. Nothing. Yet in WG games its magically "OK" it was an overpen. Overpen doesnt imply a miss, it implies that your ship looks like a swiss cheese.

 

So retarded.

You serious? Do you acctually know how big say a fletcher class destroyer was irl? look it up

 

9 shells from a yamato that went through without exploding (while unpleasant for sure) might or might not disable it or do any serious damage/kill some crew and let alone kill everyone on board