BB AP nerf needs tweaking (or buff expert loader)

[El2aZeR]

2 hours ago, Aotearas said:

If there's any change that should be made in favour for BBs it's the nonsense that modules such as AA mounts can soak up an entire HE shell.

 

Can't have that because BB players told everyone it'd be the death of angling if that happens.

I wish I was joking.

[Ze_Reckless]

BBs aren't weaker after this so-called 'nerf'. AP will still damage a DD. If you are able to read the minimap or chat (CA: I'm about to use my radar.) you switch to HE a.k.a. thinking is rewarded.

 

If by some miracle a DD tries to rush you, just turn away. That's not viable if you were stopped or reversing but then think about what happens to a DD or CA/L or CV when they get caught with their pants down. Think a little about your positioning and you will be fine.

[Armorin]

If anything, better range of BB secondaries. That was the reason they existed, to target the small ships that was pretty much a waste of shells trying to hit with the larger guns. Many BB secondaries have DD calibre guns, so why such a poor range?

AP shells still seem to do good damage though, especially if they are fired with overconfidence^tm.

[Johnny_Moneto]

Vor 14 Stunden, PapVogele sagte:

... Why is that a DD that gets within point blank range HAS to be deleted by BBs? So you can rush down DDs without worrying? Why do DDs that ambush BBs because they outplayed that BB have to be deleted because just so your feelings dont get hurt?

Some years ago it used to be like now, that you deal significantly more damage to a DD with HE. Then players complained two things: big BB shells should be able to crush a DD just by their sheer size and the secondaries should be a more efficient close proximity defense against rushing DDs. Both items got addressed by WG, maybe overdoing it a bit in the AP damage department and now they try to revert that step. Leaving the secondaries. This applies mainly to high tiers. As we all know low tier BBs are more or less victims to DDs, this relation changing gradually going up the tiers.

[DasTongle]

I think it is finally fine the way it is. If you aim right with an AP volley you still score 5k in Overpentration Damage. And you can still switch to HE afterwards to do a lot more damage.

I do not think that it was a bad change and that expert loader needs a buff.

Sure it doesn't always work in randombattles to have cruisers hunt dds but experience shows that if you stay in the area arround a cruiser and protect him a Destroyer is much less likely to attack you because you are suddenly not an easy target anymore...

[tsounts]

So, BB players want to blap dds at max range with their big guns or finish them off with their secondaries once within secondaries' range?.....
Last patch's BB ap tweak is fine I think.

BBs should learn to support their dds and cruisers instead of staying at max range and then getting isolated, after they have allowed their team to collapse, while being unable to insta kill anything that is spottted..

[Exocet6951]

7 hours ago, Fonfalks said:

This is utter bull_hit. 

Nobody is asking to make BBs destroy DDs. DDs are not supposed to yollorush BBs knowing that BBs cant do anything and torping them from 3 kms at T10 and killing BBs like it is nothing. DDs job is to torp while being invisible!!!! Key word here is invisible. I have had few of these encounters - DD rushes me on Yamato from behind island and even tho i knew he was there there was nothing i could do - i saw him, shot 6 shots at him, 5k dmg he smiled and did full broadside torp spread and i am dead. 

And what i am most pissed off about in your reply is W T F ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT - RELYING ON TEAMMATES???!!!!!! WHAT F_ING TEAMMATES??????? HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED THIS GAME? 

There are no teammates there are only at least 8 - 10 complete and utter morons who will do God knows what. That's it. 

 

 

Teach me how to stealth torp with the Minsk please since a DD's job is only stealth torping. 

 

If you got caught 3km away from your counter class, perhaps you don't deserve to survive? 

Do you expect survival when a GK pops out of an island 3km in front of your Des Moines? 

 

 

What you're saying is that BBs shouldn't have to use team play because there's none to be had. 

Do you see the twisted circular logic? 

[Exocet6951]

[forum monster]

[Ysterpyp]

15 hours ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

 

Fair point.

 

Still an "Expert Loader" buff on BBs would be nice. 

i run on Missouri 75% expert reloaded (Equals profit)

[PapVogele]

1 hour ago, Donnerturm said:

Some years ago it used to be like now, that you deal significantly more damage to a DD with HE. Then players complained two things: big BB shells should be able to crush a DD just by their sheer size and the secondaries should be a more efficient close proximity defense against rushing DDs. Both items got addressed by WG, maybe overdoing it a bit in the AP damage department and now they try to revert that step. Leaving the secondaries. This applies mainly to high tiers. As we all know low tier BBs are more or less victims to DDs, this relation changing gradually going up the tiers.

I know mate, they got their sigma buffed on top of a massive reduction of their turning circle and rudder shift times, I do believe this was in closed Beta but I can't quite remember as the patchnotes from back then are inaccessible for some odd reason.

[Black0rchid]

You can get offended by my posts or even disappointed, however that does not change the state of the Game and the state of the player population. 

 

Battleships have been dumbed down for the past 2 years. you know as well as I do that the game was based on Rock Paper and scissors mechanic. At the game launch you had reasonably balanced classes, they might have needed a few tweaks but far from what we have today. You have a class that was so heavily buffed that it could kill the 3 classes and dominated the whole game. The ruder shift was buffed to the point that some batleships can dodge 6/7 km torps, survivability was buffed, secondaries were buffed .... and we have Batleships that were launched more recently that have a beter concealment than a Cruiser.in fact some even rival with the Kabharosk. 

 

That is ridiculous! 

 

Meanwhile we saw the generalization of radar and Hydro, those that don't have it have spotter plane, being that the only exception to this is the Conqueror and we all know that the only Achilles heal it has is DD's. 

 

So in the end, and to sum it up, all the Buffs given to BB's have only contributed to players that have no clue on what to do ... continuing to play just like they did when they started. We saw the number of BB's increase to insanity, and it's completely normal to see 3/4 BB each side in each game when the game was clearly not designed to be like that. BB's still sail broadside on to the enemy from one side of the map to the other......because they can!

 

Why should BB's be the lowest skill requirement class? Makes no sense to me. A DD can be killed by Cruisers and BB's, it can be sppoted from 11 km away by  radars, the torpedoes can be seen in water from KM's away and even smoke is currently broken allowing ships to shoot into it with Virtually no dispersion. I have lost count on the number of times I have been killed or critically hit in a DD while in smoke...not shooting and not stopping. A BB can delete a Cruiser in one salvo, however the same cruiser or even a DD will have to shoot in average between 100 and 300 shells to take down the battleship. Does this make sense? 

 

So yeah, it's about time Wargamming actually started requiring BB players to actually pay attention to their position in the map and the relative position of their team. Lonely Batleships will now be a preferred target for DD's. It's about time BB players started to spec their ships according to their weaknesses and not according to what fits the general population. Concealment expert shouldn't have been a major skill for a BB from start .... unless you are in a Conqueror (and it trades that off with the ability to have hydro/radar/spotter plane). The rest of the BB's should not have it, maybe this way the BB player will start to think of the good points and bad of the ship they are specking before they actually take a build.

 

One thing we both agree, the skill gap between good players and bad will certainly increase.....and that is a good thing. Hoppefully economy will push bad players out of high tiers. I have a dream! A dream that in a tier 10 game we will not have teams with 33% avrg WR and 40k avrg damage!

 

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

12 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

So you are saying BBs should be free to just rush DDs in smokescreens since they should get a free oneshot off 100/100 times?

Apart from being quite the buff to Aquisition mod, that would be quite broken too.

No, because:

 - a BB 'rushing a DD' is actually a bit laughable... Imagine a New york at full 'speed' 

- Besides if the BB does that... how will it give a full broadside... OK maybe it's a Frenchie (but the dispersion will make sure not all hit).

And those Frenchies have a baaaaaad problem if DDs attack them from the rear... 

 

12 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

I'm fine with BBs kill a (full hp) dd in TWO volleys. But one? No.  The would make BB too much of omnipotent counter to everything. 

I think that if you calculate a FULL (100% hit) broadside to kill a DD, that's what it will be indeed.

You'll NEVER kill him in 1 volley if it is a full HP DD. 

 

 

[DFens_666]

22 minutes ago, Black0rchid said:

One thing we both agree, the skill gap between good players and bad will certainly increase.....and that is a good thing. Hoppefully economy will push bad players out of high tiers. I have a dream! A dream that in a tier 10 game we will not have teams with 33% avrg WR and 40k avrg damage!

 

No, this means, that DDs will be the next CV class. You see <30% Midways with hundreds of battles and they wont stop playing because of the economy.

And neither will DDs. The side with the better DD players (when there is no CV) has already better chances to win, if you increase the gap, then they will dominate the game even more

[Black0rchid]

Quote

No, this means, that DDs will be the next CV class. You see <30% Midways with hundreds of battles and they wont stop playing because of the economy.

And neither will DDs. The side with the better DD players (when there is no CV) has already better chances to win, if you increase the gap, then they will dominate the game even more 

Well ... nowadays you see them in BB as well. 

Eitherway, CV 's nowadays are hyped because of the CV rework. I have been in CV games 85% of the time lately. So meh.  

 

[DreiFiddy]

I've largely just played Grozovoi since the change (I still need to grind the module anyway)

 

Battleships are helpless, due to grozovoi having a heal I can rush a battleship with close to zero risk (providing they don't have a cruiser sitting next to them), and their potshots when I'm gunboating at 14km are harmless.

[ClappingLollies]

1 hour ago, DreiFiddy said:

Battleships are helpless, due to grozovoi having a heal I can rush a battleship with close to zero risk (providing they don't have a cruiser sitting next to them), and their potshots when I'm gunboating at 14km are harmless.

Key point: "providing they don't have a cruiser sitting next to them"

 

If the BB nabbs thinks this is a big nerf, then maybe its time for them to stop thinking that BB's should be self sufficient. BB's are not supposed to be master of all. 

Who would have thought that BB players must actually (just a tiny bit) use their brain now. Just a tiny bit! That is not the worst thing is it? All the BB mains out there can't be that freaking lazy that they can't do that either? 

 

@Aotearas made a good point earlier. There are to many BB's in every battle. Cruisers (that are supposed to support them against e.g DD's) are forced to play far back. Simply because there are potential BB blaps incoming from all angles.  

[Black0rchid]

Quote

maybe its time for them to stop thinking that BB's should be self sufficient. BB's are not supposed to be master of all. 

And Finally someone makes some sense ......

 

[DFens_666]

29 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

Key point: "providing they don't have a cruiser sitting next to them"

 

If the BB nabbs thinks this is a big nerf, then maybe its time for them to stop thinking that BB's should be self sufficient. BB's are not supposed to be master of all. 

Who would have thought that BB players must actually (just a tiny bit) use their brain now. Just a tiny bit! That is not the worst thing is it? All the BB mains out there can't be that freaking lazy that they can't do that either? 

 

@Aotearas made a good point earlier. There are to many BB's in every battle. Cruisers (that are supposed to support them against e.g DD's) are forced to play far back. Simply because there are potential BB blaps incoming from all angles.  

 

First match i played today (NC) on Land of fire.

Spawned center (standard battle) went to where A cap would be, because most of the team lemming to C. Tried to get some shots at the enemies, which were pretty much camping. Meanwhile, Yorck and Atago rushed through from C straight to the middle towards me, and a Lightning joined them which was on my side anyway. So i had 2 Cruisers + a DD trying to farm me. What did my Jervis, Belfast, Hipper do? Run towards map border where they died to a DD/Belfast and whining how bad the team was. Hipper didnt die, but wasnt bothered to help me either. So i basicly had to kill Yorck myself, luckily Atago got constantly damaged by someone else on my team (dont know who).

But the DD... man he was tunnelvisioning me. Open water gunboating all the time, but i wanted to get the Cruisers first. Finaly at some point he got so careless that he went full broadside towards my team and then he basicly instantly evaporated.

 

- My Cruisers/DDs werent bothered to help me one bit (those on my side ofc) even tho it would have been free damage since i was between them, and they wanted to kill me anyway.

- Enemy DD thought he can just rush me down

 

So what good does it do when 80% of the players are playing like they are lobotomized? Your team doesnt want to help you, and the enemy are pretty much killing themselves because of dumbing down the game.

[ColonelPete]

11 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

First match i played today (NC) on Land of fire.

Spawned center (standard battle) went to where A cap would be, because most of the team lemming to C. Tried to get some shots at the enemies, which were pretty much camping. Meanwhile, Yorck and Atago rushed through from C straight to the middle towards me, and a Lightning joined them which was on my side anyway. So i had 2 Cruisers + a DD trying to farm me. What did my Jervis, Belfast, Hipper do? Run towards map border where they died to a DD/Belfast and whining how bad the team was. Hipper didnt die, but wasnt bothered to help me either. So i basicly had to kill Yorck myself, luckily Atago got constantly damaged by someone else on my team (dont know who).

But the DD... man he was tunnelvisioning me. Open water gunboating all the time, but i wanted to get the Cruisers first. Finaly at some point he got so careless that he went full broadside towards my team and then he basicly instantly evaporated.

 

- My Cruisers/DDs werent bothered to help me one bit (those on my side ofc) even tho it would have been free damage since i was between them, and they wanted to kill me anyway.

- Enemy DD thought he can just rush me down

 

So what good does it do when 80% of the players are playing like they are lobotomized? Your team doesnt want to help you, and the enemy are pretty much killing themselves because of dumbing down the game.

DD still sunk - do not see the problem.

And he threatened you so much that you decided to focus on other ships first.

Yeah, the change made DD real scary for BB....

[ClappingLollies]

10 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

So what good does it do when 80% of the players are playing like they are lobotomized? Your team doesnt want to help you, and the enemy are pretty much killing themselves because of dumbing down the game.

 

There are idiots everywhere in this game. You could turn that argument upside down and call the cruisers BB's. Or DD's. My point is that its not valid to have a class that is the best at almost everything, just because people are incompetent.

 

If that was the case why cant my single DD AP salvo blap a cruiser or a BB? I almost never get any support either. But that is not an argument for buffing a class. 

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

6 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

There are idiots everywhere in this game. You could turn that argument upside down and call the cruisers BB's. Or DD's. My point is that its not valid to have a class that is the best at almost everything, just because people are incompetent.

Yes they are. But let's get real, there are also people that have no life, and are no doubt very very good at this game. 

Plus there are people (kids?) that play this game, go pew-pew-pew at trees on islands, suicide, are AFK because of coffee, ram the other teammate, see how fast they can take a turn...

How can you ever expect to get some kind of balance... Not saying you are either one of the above, but you WILL fit in somewhere in between... as will I.

But hey, we will never be the unicums, always hovering between 45-55% h? Unless we go total... well... this:

 

 

--> But we will never be as good as this guy.... unless we go:

 

6 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

If that was the case why cant my single DD AP salvo blap a cruiser or a BB? I almost never get any support either. But that is not an argument for buffing a class. 

But your DD actually CAN do just this. Just not with single AP salvo - but using torps. And even from stealth, at least some DDs can.

It's actually CRUISERS that really are in the sh!t. Guess what, 5BBs, 5DDs, 2 cruisers. How come?

[Kartoffelmos]

In a cruiser, I need:

• battleships to prevent the enemy battleships from rushing me/take all map control
• destroyers to spot the enemy destroyers (if I don't have radar)

In a destroyer, I need:

• cruisers/battleships to help me deal with the enemy destroyer (if both teams are incompetent, I merely need to play better than the opposing destroyer) and radar cruisers
• carrier/cruiser to provide AA

In a battleship, I need:

• destroyers to spot the enemy destroyers (or radar)
• carrier/cruiser to provide AA (and now assist with sinking destroyers)

There are a bunch of other things I need each class to do as well, but you get the point. With the change, a battleship cannot heavily damage or outright delete a destroyer with AP, but the dependency on other classes remains the same. Destroyers will never "turn into the new CV" merely because they have so many things that can hurt them (lowest HP pool, radar, etc.) and they have to expose themselves in order to deal with the opposing destroyers. If anything, this change promotes shooting at destroyers whenever they are spotted in order to avoid dangerous late-game situations. A skill difference in destroyers will merely result in one team gaining all the caps (or torpedo attacks without counters) but that is already the case.

 

Having written all that, I have not played much after the change so I might be mistaken, but since I never relied on full penetrations on destroyers to begin with (overpenetrations caused and still cause enough damage), I doubt that much will change.

[DFens_666]

38 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

 

There are idiots everywhere in this game. You could turn that argument upside down and call the cruisers BB's. Or DD's. My point is that its not valid to have a class that is the best at almost everything, just because people are incompetent.

 

If that was the case why cant my single DD AP salvo blap a cruiser or a BB? I almost never get any support either. But that is not an argument for buffing a class.

 

My point kinda was, that when you make one class stronger, somehow the players also get dumber (looking at the Lightning in my example). While at the same time, good players will find means to exploit that strength.

And by making BBs wearker, they will camp even harder than before.

 

How to solve this? I think that ship has sailed long ago.

Like, if we would make the game more like it should be (rock paper scissors) i think games would be even more horrible. Also i think its impossible to make BBs less popular. Cruisers should be the go to class, then we would have decent games (alteast how i see it). But this doesnt work, unless they would be OP, and then we are faced with the same problem again.

[NothingButTheRain]

1 hour ago, MortenTardo said:

Key point: "providing they don't have a cruiser sitting next to them"

 

If the BB nabbs thinks this is a big nerf, then maybe its time for them to stop thinking that BB's should be self sufficient. BB's are not supposed to be master of all. 

Who would have thought that BB players must actually (just a tiny bit) use their brain now. Just a tiny bit! That is not the worst thing is it? All the BB mains out there can't be that freaking lazy that they can't do that either? 

 

@Aotearas made a good point earlier. There are to many BB's in every battle. Cruisers (that are supposed to support them against e.g DD's) are forced to play far back. Simply because there are potential BB blaps incoming from all angles.  

Last bit, that's what islands are for. And map awareness. If you are playing a cruiser (particularly one that spends more time in open water like the Frenchy or Rusky CAs) then you MUST use your brain so you actually do not get hit from multiple directions. If you still get hit all the time from all angles then you're doing it wrong.

 

And btw basically everything is 'forced' to play far back or else they will get torped. The only class that can get in real close like that, are destroyers themselves. And they are supposed to do so.

 

Lately I've been playing Donskoi a lot actually, it's a pretty good ship even when stock.

 

And I sure as heck prefer games with 5 BBs and 4/5CA/CL each team and just a few DDs instead of 5 BBs and 4 DDs each team. Because when sailing such a cruiser, BBs are basically just big XP pinatas to me. How one can think this is too difficult is really questionable. Or they just shouldn't play cruiser, imo.

 

Things would change if it were the old 5/2/5 battles but thank the gods this hardly ever happens anymore 

[ClappingLollies]

6 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Yes they are. But let's get real, there are also people that have no life, and are no doubt very very good at this game. 

Plus there are people (kids?) that play this game, go pew-pew-pew at trees on islands, suicide, are AFK because of coffee, ram the other teammate, see how fast they can take a turn...

 

That has nothing to do with balance. It should be that equally skilled players have equal amount of strengths and weaknesses in the different classes. That is just not the case now. One of the classes are so idiot friendly that the players don't learn anything even after thousands of battles. And as soon as they have to slightly relay on team mates the players whine. 

 

16 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

How can you ever expect to get some kind of balance... Not saying you are either one of the above, but you WILL fit in somewhere in between... as will I.

But hey, we will never be the unicums, always hovering between 45-55% h? Unless we go total... well... this:

 

 

--> But we will never be as good as this guy.... unless we go:

 

I don't know about you, but i'm not in that category. 

I play less and less. Although i do read about changes and so forth. Educate myself. Therefore my WR is steadily increasing. Not hovering around 45-55%. 

BTW you can be good in games, without being sweaty. 

 

28 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

But your DD actually CAN do just this. Just not with single AP salvo - but using torps. And even from stealth, at least some DDs can.

It's actually CRUISERS that really are in the sh!t. Guess what, 5BBs, 5DDs, 2 cruisers. How come?

You just answered it yourself. You can't blap a BB with DD AP.

Yes, you can blap a BB with DD torpedoes in some cases but that mostly requires you to have good torp RNG spread, good enough torps, the BB player have to be blind, deaf and can't press W, A, S or D. 

 

I agree that cruisers are the ones that gets shafted the most tho.