BB AP nerf needs tweaking (or buff expert loader)

[Bear__Necessities]

I like this change as a DD main. 

 

Do I think it's fair or balanced?

 

No. 

 

I however don't have an answer or solution to give yet. I hope its tweaked and actually balanced properly. It's gone from heavy one side to heavy to the other... WG... I don't think you understand what balance means. Keep trying. 

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

14 minutes ago, Black0rchid said:

Maybe learning to deal with them? Using the brain? Specing the ship the. Right way instead of going for concealment expert? Making secondary build and longer range torp a spec mandatory for BB? So many possibility. If they decide to stop playing..... They will not be missed, that I can assure you :) Now keep crying over the bb nerf.....

 

Didn't know it was that easy.

 

I guess we can all go home. 

[ForlornSailor]

12 minutes ago, Black0rchid said:

Now keep crying over the bb nerf.....

 

So uncalled for and immature. Its a normal discussion. I thought better of you, really...

 

13 minutes ago, Black0rchid said:

Maybe learning to deal with them? Using the brain? Specing the ship the. Right way instead of going for concealment expert? Making secondary build and longer range torp a spec mandatory for BB? So many possibility.

 

Like thats what usualy happens? We still have people trying to avoid damage because they want to minimize repaircosts. We still have people crying about CVs and at the same time never put 1 captain point into AA-skills. And, ofc, we still have people complaining about radar but keep repeating the following : rush cap - stay in open - smoke - wait - die - repeat. So where exactly do you see people using their brains on a larger scale in this community?

 

 

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Honestly at this point, why should we care? Braindead BBs are going to use every excuse possible to camp in the back while skilled BBs are going to remain at more effective distances.

 

Well, for the sake of the game? You know me, I like to point out these things, when I feel, it will make people overall play more stupid. Doesnt matter which class we are talking about.

 

Just now, Bear_Necessities said:

WG... I don't think you understand what balance means.

 

Bottomline.

[DFens_666]

6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Honestly at this point, why should we care? Braindead BBs are going to use every excuse possible to camp in the back while skilled BBs are going to remain at more effective distances.

 

Because it makes DD players also dumb?

Sure i can see how good DD players like this changes, as it makes it easier on both fronts (less BB AP damage and less DDs to worry about as they turn their brain off and go full retard)

 

Can cause even more onesided matches imo

[Yedwy]

Hmm IDK in general it is less damage (personal observation from both standpoints) but the other day (it was after the patch) i smacked a rushing akizuki in the nose and ribbon showed full pen not overpen, so the question is it still possible to have pens just harder or does that full pen count as 10%? On other notion, switching to HE is something i already used to do even before (when there was time to prepair for a dd ofc) so i dont find that so bad, EL though IMHO is of questionable merit as it is now (with possible exeption of the 75% variant and on some ships) becouse you need to have fully loaded guns for it to work and IRL it usually takes only slightly more time to just fire loaded ammo and switch to the other type  for next volley then to wait at least 20-30 seconds for the new ammo type since the window of opportunity for whitch you are acctually switching it is often gone by then even more so if you add shell travel time and reaction time to it...

[DFens_666]

4 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

i smacked a rushing akizuki in the nose and ribbon showed full pen not overpen, so the question is it still possible to have pens just harder or does that full pen count as 10%?

It shows penetration, but you only get 10% from it.

 

[Drake847]

Can you still multi overpen a dd(have not tested it sufficent) ?  I mean i hit a dd with monty shells he still took 10k something . I  cant complain and i play all 3 classes .

I would also say it is a bit to early to give a proper judgement about the Ap "nerf"

[DFens_666]

2 minutes ago, Drake847 said:

Can you still multi overpen a dd(have not tested it sufficent) ?  I mean i hit a dd with monty shells he still took 10k something . I  cant complain and i play all 3 classes .

 

Yes, shells dealing more damage than they should still exists (as for the other classes aswell, obviously WG is like [edited]them).

DD needs to be turning for that to occur however.

 

 

[El2aZeR]

28 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Well, for the sake of the game?

 

Honestly I do not believe any change will make average play even more stupid considering what an abysmal low we have already fallen to.

Imo it is time to stop balancing this game around the average, aka braindead player and finally assume people actually know what they're doing.

 

27 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Because it makes DD players also dumb?

 

Dumb DD players will remain dumb.

I'd be surprised if more than 20% even knows such a change took place.

 

8 minutes ago, Drake847 said:

Can you still multi overpen a dd(have not tested it sufficent) ?

 

Yes, however MrConway stated that this should've been eliminated and is now labeled as a bug. They're already investigating.

[ForlornSailor]

7 minutes ago, Drake847 said:

Can you still multi overpen a dd(have not tested it sufficent) ? 

 

Yes. @DFens_666 and @wilkatis_LV tested and confirmed it.

 

3 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

I'd be surprised if more than 20% even knows such a change took place.

 

Thats absolutly true, sadly. Just another reason why I dont like it, when they fiddle with gamemechanics. Soon we will see threads "I did a pen on DD but only got OP-dmg - bug!". And can you really blame them? In their infinite wisdom WG chosed to keep the pen-ribbon. Also, since you still are able to pen a Harugumo f.e. or pen with HE, its easy to draw the conclusion, something is wrong, when you get your pen denied on a Gearing or so.

 

6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Imo it is time to stop balancing this game around the average, aka braindead player and finally assume people actually know what they're doing.

 

Yes I agree. But that ship has sailed? Imagine what changes we all would need to reverse... Anyway, limiting damage taken seems to be the way to go these days. First remove BB citadel, then limit DD damage and the CA/CL thing points to that direction aswell (also: french cruiser troll armor?). At the same time, WG increases the dakka-dakka. Its so weird. Like you try to bake a cake and you gone slightly off the receipe and now you try to fix it by adding more salt and more sugar, hoping, it will even out.

 

[El2aZeR]

15 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

But that ship has sailed?

 

True.

I'm still holding on to the railings tho. *sigh*

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Because it makes DD players also dumb?

Sure i can see how good DD players like this changes, as it makes it easier on both fronts (less BB AP damage and less DDs to worry about as they turn their brain off and go full retard)

 

Can cause even more onesided matches imo

 

They COULD fix this though, and they NEED TO do something of that kind already. 

Easiest would be to step up the secondary damage. BBs would still not be able to damage DDs with AP.

But DDs also would better not go too near any BB either. And... tadaaa... nobody would need a brain too use it.

I'd also like that because I'm braind... ehh... lobotom... ehhh... kinda, it's realistic too. Secondaries, that is what they are for.

Light cruisers/DDs that got too close to BBs got shredded by secondaries. As is, secondaries just fart a bit in the general direction.

 

Also, they need to have a look at secondary/AA damage anyway with their new guised miss.... ehh... CV meta.

 

So, there you go. It's easy fix, dumb as f, so... well... how can they mess that one up?

[Admiral_Nightingale]

1 hour ago, Yedwy said:

Hmm IDK in general it is less damage (personal observation from both standpoints) but the other day (it was after the patch) i smacked a rushing akizuki in the nose and ribbon showed full pen not overpen, so the question is it still possible to have pens just harder or does that full pen count as 10%? On other notion, switching to HE is something i already used to do even before (when there was time to prepair for a dd ofc) so i dont find that so bad, EL though IMHO is of questionable merit as it is now (with possible exeption of the 75% variant and on some ships) becouse you need to have fully loaded guns for it to work and IRL it usually takes only slightly more time to just fire loaded ammo and switch to the other type  for next volley then to wait at least 20-30 seconds for the new ammo type since the window of opportunity for whitch you are acctually switching it is often gone by then even more so if you add shell travel time and reaction time to it...

10% regardless of pen / overpen hitting a nice RNG volley on a DD still hurts it hard though but they should if they dont use their stealth.

[ReapingKnight]

As a Crusier\DD main who also plays BBs I don't see an issue, I've played multiple games where a DD have been broadside at 7> KM from my and I still hit them for 3-6k damage. What's wrong with that? The fact that the DD got close to you is the problem that has been caused by no map awareness, or team mates dying\abandoning sides completely (or you going somewhere without support).

 

I don't believe having BB capable of one-shot-ing close range DD to solve this problem as it's not a mechanic problem, it's a player problem based completely around team work and communication which this game tries(fails) to encourage. The saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink comes to mind...Yes there are some exceptions to the rule as always where you may be the last left alive vs a DD but then again the game has been balanced around BB beat CA, CA beat DD and DD beat BB...but if you make it so that BB beat DD then the balance changes...This is most likely caused by the game being designed around two\three nations...no plans or gimicks were taken into account for balance when this launched..

 

The issue I've noticed and I am not sure if it's due to this change is that I've got a lot more OverPens on broadside anything from BBs CAs and DDs...(the DDs I understand due to thin armor) 

[Gojuadorai]

2 hours ago, Bear_Necessities said:

I like this change as a DD main. 

Do I think it's fair or balanced?

 

No. 

 

I however don't have an answer or solution to give yet. I hope its tweaked and actually balanced properly.

It's gone from heavy one side to heavy to the other... WG... I don't think you understand what balance means.

Keep trying. 

 

this is the problem  i was always in support of a change since the regular AP  pen WAS too much

i predicted their penetration changes wont work out it was way to complex and it was clear even before testing that it had too much unforseen implications 

now this change 
10% just lets DDs get away with stuff they should not 

stupid unelaborate play should not be rewarded ever! (neither for BB nor for DDs)
but this change just enforced that, the optimal dicision is now the one that requires the least amount of skill.

im not advertising going back to the old solution but 
a middel ground solution 
i think anywhere between 15-20% there can be a middle ground which allows good dds to make their plays but still punish bad players.

[El2aZeR]

Don't worry guys, DD play is about to die hard.

So there is no need to buff BB capability against them.

 

Spoiler

 

All DDs killed within 5 minutes.

Also "skill gap is a problem, so we made it even worse".

 

[Flavio1997]

 

guys do you get that if you raise the damage of ap to 15%, there won't be any difference in damage between ap and he:  

let's take the montana for example:

ap overpen damage: 1350 ( 10% of 13500)

he pen: 1900 ( 33% of 5700)

 

ap overpen with 15% damage: 2025

 

guys you don't get how much already an ap overpen is devastating for a dd

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

Well, IMO a DD that comes within 2-3km of a BB should be dead in 30 seconds, no matter if he gets hit by main guns or not.

On the other hand, AP will not do deadly damage at 19k or more. Maybe a secondary buff would be the thing.

But AP damage should also be calculated by tier - a full broadside hit = instakill, no matter AP or HE. 

But if you miss half and it was AP, well.... So, a Gearing having ~20k HP, coming close to T8 BB,

means that BB should (be able to) do 20k damage in one AP broadside... take 10 guns... ~2k per shell?

 

On NC it's 13.1 K so 10% is a bit low IMO. But then there's the secondaries...

The secondaries (if they aren't damaged) put out 5x2x5 shots in 30 secs. 50 shots x 1800HP at 5km. Plenty. 

[Flavio1997]

12 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Well, IMO a DD that comes within 2-3km of a BB should be dead in 30 seconds, no matter if he gets hit by main guns or not.

On the other hand, AP will not do deadly damage at 19k or more. Maybe a secondary buff would be the thing.

But AP damage should also be calculated by tier - a full broadside hit = instakill, no matter AP or HE. 

But if you miss half and it was AP, well.... So, a Gearing having ~20k HP, coming close to T8 BB,

means that BB should (be able to) do 20k damage in one AP broadside... take 10 guns... ~2k per shell?

 

On NC it's 13.1 K so 10% is a bit low IMO. But then there's the secondaries...

The secondaries (if they aren't damaged) put out 5x2x5 shots in 30 secs. 50 shots x 1800HP at 5km. Plenty. 

yeah, but you are talking about an untouched dd rushing a bb....a bit of a stretch in a normal game

[Gojuadorai]

1 hour ago, Flavio1997 said:

 

guys do you get that if you raise the damage of ap to 15%, there won't be any difference in damage between ap and he:  

let's take the montana for example:

ap overpen damage: 1350 ( 10% of 13500)

he pen: 1900 ( 33% of 5700)

 

ap overpen with 15% damage: 2025

 

guys you don't get how much already an ap overpen is devastating for a dd

 

 

what a load of nonsense

youre implying every Ap hit is a pen when the fraction of AP pens  on DDs was about 30% on average  (ofc you could get lucky)
also the module DMG from BB HE is devastating 
 

and a AP overpen is certainly not devastating ... unless yourte affraid your paint gets scratched before youre bakc in port

 

[Fonfalks]

7 hours ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

Not blowing your counter class out of the water, and instead having to rely on teammates in a team game is dumbing down the game? 

 

 

Can I start quad citpenning broadside BBs when I play cruiser then? 

Or not having my T8 and lower planes be annihilated by dfaa and BBs when a ship is isolated?

 

Why do BBs always have to be coddled while other classes get hammered and beaten by a myriad of mechanics? 

This is utter bull_hit. 

Nobody is asking to make BBs destroy DDs. DDs are not supposed to yollorush BBs knowing that BBs cant do anything and torping them from 3 kms at T10 and killing BBs like it is nothing. DDs job is to torp while being invisible!!!! Key word here is invisible. I have had few of these encounters - DD rushes me on Yamato from behind island and even tho i knew he was there there was nothing i could do - i saw him, shot 6 shots at him, 5k dmg he smiled and did full broadside torp spread and i am dead. 

And what i am most pissed off about in your reply is W T F ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT - RELYING ON TEAMMATES???!!!!!! WHAT F_ING TEAMMATES??????? HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED THIS GAME? 

There are no teammates there are only at least 8 - 10 complete and utter morons who will do God knows what. That's it. 

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, Flavio1997 said:

guys you don't get how much already an ap overpen is devastating for a dd

 

I guess a Yamato shell cita on a Zao doesnt hurt. Only 36% HP shaved off

And let me remind you that a Cruiser is far more easier detected than a DD + its bigger in size.

[GulvkluderGuld]

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Well, IMO a DD that comes within 2-3km of a BB should be dead in 30 seconds, no matter if he gets hit by main guns or not.

On the other hand, AP will not do deadly damage at 19k or more. Maybe a secondary buff would be the thing.

But AP damage should also be calculated by tier - a full broadside hit = instakill, no matter AP or HE. 

But if you miss half and it was AP, well.... So, a Gearing having ~20k HP, coming close to T8 BB,

means that BB should (be able to) do 20k damage in one AP broadside... take 10 guns... ~2k per shell?

 

On NC it's 13.1 K so 10% is a bit low IMO. But then there's the secondaries...

The secondaries (if they aren't damaged) put out 5x2x5 shots in 30 secs. 50 shots x 1800HP at 5km. Plenty. 

So you are saying BBs should be free to just rush DDs in smokescreens since they should get a free oneshot off 100/100 times?

Apart from being quite the buff to Aquisition mod, that would be quite broken too.

 

I'm fine with BBs kill a (full hp) dd in TWO volleys. But one? No.  The would make BB too much of omnipotent counter to everything. 

Islands with dds here? Imma go onehot them cuz muh stats.

Smokescreen? Same deal

Cruiser? *Blap*

Bow in BB? Go to forum and whine because it cant be killed in 1 volley.

Grozovoi tried to open water charge my Yamato. Killed him just fine with HE as there was plenty of time for 2-3 HE volleys on top of the first 2 AP volleys.

[Aotearas]

If there's any change that should be made in favour for BBs it's the nonsense that modules such as AA mounts can soak up an entire HE shell. Nothing more frustrating than actually having HE loaded in anticipation of a DD, spotting the DD, shooting the little bugger and half your hits do 0 damage because a couple AA machinguns just blackholed the entire shell.

 

Just today had an instance in my Warspite like that, hit three HE shells (three penetration ribbons) on a DD, did only 1749 damage (ergo one HE pen) and knocked out a couple AA modules. The same number of hits with AP would've been almost double the damage at 3420 (plus the chance for said overpens dealing double damage, cuz that ain't fixed!).

 

There's no point in having an HE damage system that is so unreliable that even as THE ammunition choice meant to deal with low-armour targets, you're still better off shooting the nerfed AP.

[DFens_666]

37 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

If there's any change that should be made in favour for BBs it's the nonsense that modules such as AA mounts can soak up an entire HE shell. Nothing more frustrating than actually having HE loaded in anticipation of a DD, spotting the DD, shooting the little bugger and half your hits do 0 damage because a couple AA machinguns just blackholed the entire shell.

 

Just today had an instance in my Warspite like that, hit three HE shells (three penetration ribbons) on a DD, did only 1749 damage (ergo one HE pen) and knocked out a couple AA modules. The same number of hits with AP would've been almost double the damage at 3420 (plus the chance for said overpens dealing double damage, cuz that ain't fixed!).

 

There's no point in having an HE damage system that is so unreliable that even as THE ammunition choice meant to deal with low-armour targets, you're still better off shooting the nerfed AP.

 

That was what i was hoping for when they announced the changes to modules/saturated areas receiving damage... because then HE would be totaly viable and even more OP than BB AP against DDs. But the way it is now its kinda questionable...

 

And todays game made me going crazy on how many penetrations dealt 0 damage again (on all classes)... man would i have loved for them to fix that.

The best one was 3 pens + 1 overpen on a 6k HP FDG... after that he stood there still with 4+k HP