BB AP nerf needs tweaking (or buff expert loader)

[anonym_2hneAFaIyP4T]

1 minute ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

Guys:

DDs are not supposed to rush BBs!

 

This has nothing to do with being a "hard-counter" or even a counter to them.

 

The question is just if braindead rushing them should be possible.

 

maybe... neither are BB's 'supposed' to camp... or cruisers 'supposed' to brawl BB's (well, may be some exceptions)... but that doesn't stop people trying

 

And that I think is kinda the point. No matter what the changes, people will do stupid stuff. Give it a while and I suspect the DD's will find that Yolo rushing BB's rarely works any better than it did before (I mean, does it? Could 'you' reliably get full pen damage from AP on a yolo rushing dd before the change?), and things will go back to a their previous _balanced state... then we can review and form a better opinion.

 

Just my 2c 

[Verblonde]

2 minutes ago, Gojuadorai said:

 

i have a riddel for you

which is you and which is helmut

 

I'm the crap one, obviously!

 

I would suggest that the opinions of a muppet are valid, if only because there are a lot more of us than unicums, so our behaviours have a greater impact on the game overall.

[DFens_666]

1 minute ago, Verblonde said:

 (and an isolated BB deserves it)...!

 

And you need to yolo him because.... ?

[anonym_2hneAFaIyP4T]

1 minute ago, Verblonde said:

there are a lot more of us than unicums, so our behaviours have a greater impact on the game overall.

+1 long live us

[Verblonde]

1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

 

And you need to yolo him because.... ?

<sigh> I'm obviously not going to charge him, all guns blazing; I'm going to try and torp the bugger without breaking stealth (and assuming I don't have to be doing something more important).

 

What I really meant by the bit in brackets is that an isolated BB deserves everything it gets, but you knew that didn't you?

[Verblonde]

Just now, Rusty_9 said:

+1 long live us

Hurrah! Although the person trying to stat shame me was at least tactful enough to omit my survival stats, which are also truly dreadful...!

[GulvkluderGuld]

1 hour ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

I play all classes and this nerf leaves BBs too vulnerable to DDs.

Waiting to reload HE when a DD pops up is not an option, and you can't always expect them.

 

What this nerf does is preventing BBs from pushing, because they cannot defend themselves. 

If a DD gets too close to a BB, there has to be real punishment. Everything else is dumbing down the game for DDs.

 

Option A:

The damage that BB AP can do to DDs needs to be tweaked, for starters maybe 15% instead of 10%.

 

Option B:

"Expert Loader" skill needs to be buffed for BBs (-75%, like on the USN special captains).

 

(If you want people to use the right ammo for the job, at least let them switch in a reasonable time.)

Not enough time has passed for me to really form an opinion.

Also we have to distinguish between higher tier (8+) where radar is available (usually in quantities) and the rest.

 

I have not seen dds rush BBs in the higher tiers, unless the bb chose to push a smokescreen with a DD inside, in which case the BB rolled the all or nothing dice.

 

BBs arnt supposed to push no matter what, you put it like it is some God given right. And if they push, they will eat attrition torpedoes. That has not changed.

So which situations are you talking about? My opinion in general agrees with Aoteras:

1 hour ago, Aotearas said:

Cruisers are supposed to protect against DDs rushes. Guess why there's so few of those around. Now guess if making BBs selfsufficient against DDs will make cruisers more popular ...

 

Also, you can already increase your damage output against rushing DDs by a good chunk, just need to spec your captain skills for secondaries.

Pretty much this.

 

Face it, BBs arnt supposed to be DD killers too, they already are cruiser killers and BB killers.

 

If a DD gets close to a BB, it means that BBs deserves what it gets, because either 1) he ran out of support and didn't retreat in time (misplay) or 2) he used island cover and got outplayed.

 

 

[DFens_666]

1 minute ago, Verblonde said:

<sigh> I'm obviously not going to charge him, all guns blazing; I'm going to try and torp the bugger without breaking stealth (and assuming I don't have to be doing something more important).

 

What I really meant by the bit in brackets is that an isolated BB deserves everything it gets, but you knew that didn't you?

 

Sure, i dont deny that. But if a DD decides to rush him in order to torp from 1km, then i think the DD might aswell die? DDs dont want to get blapped across the map by a BB - that i can understand. But shouldnt the BB be able to kill the DD point blank range (aka DD detection) then aswell?

[GulvkluderGuld]

16 minutes ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

Guys:

DDs are not supposed to rush BBs!

 

This has nothing to do with being a "hard-counter" or even a counter to them.

 

The question is just if braindead rushing them should be possible.

 

Rushing on open water, no

Ambushing from behind islands or if a BB pushes close (4ish km) to a smokescreen, yes.

 

V-25 should be able to rush ANYTHING

[ForlornSailor]

1 hour ago, Exocet6951 said:

Why do BBs always have to be coddled while other classes get hammered and beaten by a myriad of mechanics? 

 

Just to remind you: This thread exists, because DDs just got a massive buff. A Buff, which is an exeption in the core mechanics of the game.

 

On topic: I deliberatly played a few DDs yesterday and rushed a few BBs. Worked out every time. Only one time they managed to get me killed - because the Kongo & Warspite I picked as a target shot HE at me.

One thing to think about: What happens, if you make it unprofitable for one class to shoot at another class? Right, you will focus on another class. You can see it happening in BB vs BB/CA interaction. The decline in hittable citadells on BBs makes BBs shoot at Cruisers more. When a BB rather shoots at the RN CL in his smoke, then targeting 3 BBs closer to him (actually happened to me), then things are getting weird. But why wouldnt he? He got a sh1tload of XP for blowing me out of the water, what would have been the outcome of shooting at a BB without cita? And the same question will be asked in BB vs DD.

 

What needs to be done is the following:

 

- Fix the one-shell-two-hits thing. I dont care if its a bug/feature/logic or anything - it needs to go, its not good for the game, its not good for any class, that gets hit by that.

- Change how (BBs) switch Ammo-type: When I dont have expert loader and I want to switch - why would I not just shoot me ready loaded guns? There needs to be a bonus even without EL and EL strenghens it to a workable level. Hint: 50% aka unsualy ~15 sec isnt workable.

- I like @Gojuadorai suggestions. A pen should still be treated as such and gives more damage. 20 % sounds reasonable.

[Verblonde]

Just now, DFens_666 said:

 

Sure, i dont deny that. But if a DD decides to rush him in order to torp from 1km, then i think the DD might aswell die? DDs dont want to get blapped across the map by a BB - that i can understand. But shouldnt the BB be able to kill the DD point blank range (aka DD detection) then aswell?

 

If a DD tries to torp from point-blank, he should probably expect not to survive proceedings, certainly!

 

At the risk of starting another row, I do think there is something to be said for doing something to secondaries akin to the current arrangement with AA i.e. give some ships more than one aura of secondary fire, or maybe just have a drastic increase in effectiveness as you get closer (the multi-aura thing probably isn't supported by historical armament?) to a ship with functioning secondaries. Basically make it flat-out suicide for a spotted DD to get closer than x km to a BB, with longer ranged secondary use remaining pretty much as is (define 'x' according to tier and ship armament). That would fix the 'blap at range' issue whilst not leaving even the most idiotic BB open to a suicide charge...?

[ForlornSailor]

10 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Basically make it flat-out suicide for a spotted DD to get closer than x km to a BB, with longer ranged secondary use remaining pretty much as is (define 'x' according to tier and ship armament). That would fix the 'blap at range' issue whilst not leaving even the most idiotic BB open to a suicide charge...?

 

Personally, that would be again lowering the skill cealing too much in my book. If BBs just become untouchable without them having to do anything. IMO it should be a viable tactic to take the risk and rush a BB, if he has his main guns turned the other way, f.e. You might take a little damage from secondaries, but thats to be expected. But fending off attacks should still need skill and should have a reasonable chance of sucess or failure.

[RAMJB]

We just got HE-firing secondaries. They don't hit squat without manual secondaries tho (except on Massa).

Do a general dispersion buff for all secondaries to 50% of what they are now. They'll still be not useful at max ranges, but if a DD comes yolorushing you, he's going to eat some explosive lead in the face (as he should) without being completely lethal in the short nor medium term. Right now secondaries are a non factor unless manual secondaries are specced (and costing 4 points that skill is only worth taking in a few, very particular, ships), a point must've been found where they are a decent deterrent without being over the top, and I'm sure toggling with the dispersion is a good way to achieve it.

I want to make my position clear here: A DD 2km away from a BB which receives a full main battery salvo on the face SHOULD be blasted into oblivion, "counter" class or not. But what it can't be is that a random AP shell from 10km hitting a DD does 5k damage. Because that's just retarded.

Barring another, final, fix that allows for both things to happen (yolorushing DDs receiving a full salvo on the face being express-sent to port, while no more stupid AP random pens that shouldn't really happen at long distances), the secondary buff is a good intermediate fix, or at the very least, mean a decent deterrent against charges that should be suicidal...yet they currently aren't.


In general though I can say I'm pretty happy with the change. I still play my BBs as I used to (I never relied on those BS AP pens anyway), and the DDs that ate a shitton of stupid unfair damage are a lot more playable right now. But there are scenarios that I agree the change has created where things shouldn't be the way they currently are.

[Exocet6951]

24 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Just to remind you: This thread exists, because DDs just got a massive buff. A Buff, which is an exeption in the core mechanics of the game.

 

One buff of this magnitude in 3 years, and within a week, there's a suggestion to increase guaranteed damage by 50 to 100%

 

Interesting. 

Again, cruiser dealing quad citpens to BBs rushing them when? 

Since apparently everyone needs to be self sufficient and have no counter? 

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

To be clear: I never said it should be like before.

 

Just that it could use some tweaking towards more damage.

[Gojuadorai]

32 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

 

Face it, BBs arnt supposed to be DD killers too, they already are cruiser killers and BB killers.

 

 

nobody asked for BBs to be dd killers but this is a game and a game need healthy gameplay

if YOLO which can be executed independantly of skill is the best decision then the skill required to play WOWs has become meaningless

this update has deleted many options for skillfull play from both sides e.g.
- dds were showing broadside to a AP salvo to increase likelyhood of overpens and got rewarded -> now its just nose in yolo
- BBs that could actually hit a DD at ranges could influence what that dd is going to do now theres no point in trying any more and its better to just brainlessly trade with BBs when theres no cruiser

- and certainly soem more examples can be made

the cruiser solution is wishfull thinking  ... (kinda reminds me of space citizen ..... how cool would that be if that and this existed....)

BBs need to be able to deal some meaningfull damage to badly played DDs 
(with AP cause nobody can pay the opportunity cost of switching in regular situations and nobody wants a world where every dam BB is spamming HE like a noob)
 

 

[Verblonde]

15 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Personally, that would be again lowering the skill cealing too much in my book.

Yeah that's the down-side; it would also risk buggering up the 'skillful ambush from behind an island' scenario too...

 

Edit: coming up with a secondaries-based way to stomp DDs that are idiotic (using a better mechanic than my suggestion) might also have the merit of making cruisers more playable (where they have viable secondaries) too - that might be a good thing?

[GulvkluderGuld]

6 minutes ago, Gojuadorai said:

 

nobody asked for BBs to be dd killers but this is a game and a game need healthy gameplay

In that case maybe something should be done to reduce the numbers of BB per game?

 

1. AP should never have been that way in the first place

2. This is BB crying. Taking those shots certainly is still possible and should be done. An AP overpen is 8-13% of dd hp. For reference, that is more %hp dmg than a regular pen on a BB.

 

meaningful AP dmg? Dont suggest we want healthy gameplay and suggest one ammo type for all situations? AP is just as bad as HE in that sense.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

2 hours ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

I play all classes and this nerf leaves BBs too vulnerable to DDs.

 

 

"Expert Loader" skill needs to be buffed for BBs ...

 

Is it not a bit too early to make counter changes?  I do think if changes are needed, buffing "Expert Loader" might be a good choice.

[The_Shungite_Wizard]

yolo a bb kind of pointless, it leaves the dd either dead or no health left to farm / scout the late game, patch weekend people are probs just trying stuff out

[wilkatis_LV]

2 hours ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

Option B:

"Expert Loader" skill needs to be buffed for BBs (-75%, like on the USN special captains).

This would not only make it a very reasonable pick, but probably even make EL the default 1p skill for BBs instead of PT / PM.

 

Surely you can see why WG won't do it - would make too much sense

 

2 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Ive always wondered maybe that whole EL thing needs some changing:

 

- If you have guns loaded, make them switch ammo in 50% of the reload time regardless if you have a cptn skill.

- EL gets changed, that you can fast switch ammo WHILE reloading i.e.:

If you are currently reloading, >50% of your normal reload time (like 20 secs left for a BB) then you can switch ammo and it will continue reloading without reset.

If your reload is <50% (like 10 secs left for a BB) you can switch ammo but it will start at 50% of the reload circle (back to 15 secs f.e.)

for special cptns with 75% EL they can ofc still be faster than normal cptn

 

It will also remove the possibility of waiting till you have reloaded and then switch ammo, which is faster than switching ammo right away.

Same as above, far too sensible for WG to actually introduce it

[Black0rchid]

Unlike the OP I don't see this as a DD dumbing down, I see this as an increased IQ requirement for BB players. If memory does t fail me BB have received buffs in one form or other on the past 2 years. The level of brain dead BB players has been contributing to the level of gameplay we currently see. So yeah its time there is a minimum IQ requirement for players. This is a step in the right direction. 

[ForlornSailor]

11 minutes ago, Black0rchid said:

Unlike the OP I don't see this as a DD dumbing down, I see this as an increased IQ requirement for BB players. If memory does t fail me BB have received buffs in one form or other on the past 2 years. The level of brain dead BB players has been contributing to the level of gameplay we currently see. So yeah its time there is a minimum IQ requirement for players. This is a step in the right direction. 

 

And what will be the conclusion of this lerning process for some/many BBs? Thats right - stay away from the DDs, even more then currently.

[Black0rchid]

Maybe learning to deal with them? Using the brain? Specing the ship the. Right way instead of going for concealment expert? Making secondary build and longer range torp a spec mandatory for BB? So many possibility. If they decide to stop playing..... They will not be missed, that I can assure you :) Now keep crying over the bb nerf.....

[El2aZeR]

58 minutes ago, Gojuadorai said:

- dds were showing broadside to a AP salvo to increase likelyhood of overpens and got rewarded -> now its just nose in yolo

 

This wasn't skillful in any way. Broadsiding was a gamble. You make yourself a bigger, more predictable target hoping for overpens. Penetration damage could still occur via underwater and deck hits.

 

1 hour ago, Gojuadorai said:

- BBs that could actually hit a DD at ranges could influence what that dd is going to do now theres no point in trying any more and its better to just brainlessly trade with BBs when theres no cruiser

 

I still regularly get 3-5k salvos on DDs with BB AP shells at range. When there are multiple teammates shooting him that DD is going to die very quickly.

I've certainly had no troubles dealing with DDs after this patch. Just keep up with your minimap awareness, fire your first salvo of AP and switch to HE immediately. Overpen damage still hurts a lot unless you misaim or RNGesus says no.

 

And if people don't want to rely on cruisers to defend their mighty BBs, I guess AP bombs are fine too then? It's the same principle after all, why should CVs have to rely on allies to take out AA cruisers?

 

12 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

And what will be the conclusion of this lerning process for some/many BBs? Thats right - stay away from the DDs, even more then currently.

 

Honestly at this point, why should we care? Braindead BBs are going to use every excuse possible to camp in the back while skilled BBs are going to remain at more effective distances.