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TicoXotaR

Italian DD Line

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As above, we need at least the tiers and the names of the ships. I'll be honest, I know very little about Italian ships, so I would appreciate the info. What I do know though, is that Fascist Italy (mostly) ceased to exist after 1943, so there will probably be no new Italian DD's after this point. That means that the picture you have found may just fill Tiers 2-6 over and over. The tree will either need some foreign DD's at high tiers to flesh it out, or whatever paper designs that WG can research.

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55 minutes ago, TicoXotaR said:

Here's my research into a Italian DD line. Hope you enjoy.

OP Fill in the stars on each ship.

 

Ship Name + year: ****

Tier: ****

Main Battery: ****

Secondarys (If any): ****

AA: ****

Torpedoes: ****

Manoeuvrability: ****

Concealment: ****

Consumables: ****

 

Example:-

Leone Tier VI Italian Destroyer Stats


Italian Tier VI Destroyer Leone

The Leone Class ships were designed as scout cruisers (esploratori), essentially enlarged versions of contemporary destroyers. They were initially ordered in 1917, but postponed due to steel shortages, and re-ordered in 1920.

 

COST:

8e24b326995d4ef683e03b38acc02d98.png

  • Valued at 4800 Doubloons
  • £15+
  • Euro 17+
  • $23+

 

HULL:

icon_module_hull.png

  • Hit points: 13,700. 
  • Armour: 6~16 mm.
  • Propulsion: 42,000 hp.

MAIN BATTERY:

icon_module_maingun.png

  • ‎4 x 2 120 mm/45 Vickers-Terni 1924.
  • Firing range: 12.1 km.
  • Reload time: 8.5 s. 
  • 180 degree turn time: 22.5 s. 
  • Maximum dispersion: 106 m. 
  • Sigma value: 2.0
  • Shells:
  • -120-мм proiettili HE 1918
  • --HE initial velocity: 750 m/s.
  • --Maximum HE shell damage: 1700. 
  • --COF: 6%
  • -120-мм proiettili AP 1918
  • --AP initial velocity: 750 m/s.
  • --Maximum AP shell damage: 2000. 

TORPEDOES:

icon_module_torpedoes.png

  • 2 X 2 533-мм tubolanciasiluri DAAN-Whitehead.
  • Damage: 13367 HP.
  • Reload: 131.0 s.
  • Speed: 51 knots.
  • Distance: 12  km.
  • 180 Dec: 7.2 s
  • Visibility: 1.0 km.
  • Type: Normal.

ANTI AIRCRAFT:

icon_modernization_PCM018_AirDefense_Mod

  • 2 x 1 40 mm Vickers
  • -DPS: 11
  • -Maximum firing range: 2.0 km
  • -Aura near
  • 2 x 2 13.2 mm/76 Breda 1931
  • -DPS: 8
  • -Maximum firing range: 1.2 km
  • -Aura near

MANOEUVRABILITY:

MANOEUVRABILITY.png

  • Maximum speed: 34 kt. 
  • Turning circle radius: 620 m. 
  • Rudder shift time: 3.4 s. 

CONCEALMENT:

icon_modernization_PCM027_ConcealmentMea

  • Surface detectability: 7.2 km. 
  • Air detectability: 3.8 km. 
  • Detectability after firing main guns in smoke: 2.6 km.

AVAILABLE CONSUMABLES:

Menu_icon_equipment_wows.png

  • Slot 1: Damage Control Party
  • Slot 2: Smoke Generator
  • Slot 3: Engine Boost
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The last picture (drawn rather than a photo) is of interest, spotter/fighter plane and as a DD it would have smoke. A self spotting DD in smoke 

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53 minutes ago, martin035 said:

The last picture (drawn rather than a photo) is of interest, spotter/fighter plane and as a DD it would have smoke. A self spotting DD in smoke 

There was a Dutch destroyer that used a spotter plane too, something like T5 material. I can't remember the name, but someone suggested it. That would be a very unique style of play, allowing the DD to spam BB's, spot incoming cruisers and torpedoes and generally be more self reliant than other DD's.

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10 minutes ago, Centurion_1711 said:

The OP doesn't even need to be as thorough as @iJoby's entry, but it filling in the fields they stated would be nice

I agree, I would be happy with some sort of text from the OP on each ship, something to debate about.

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Some of Dutch Admiralen Class Destroyers could carry a floatplane. Only thing is it couldn't be launched from the ship. Instead it should be put on the water by crane and then take of from water. I couldn't find any proper image of the ship with floatplane but I found some images of the model

 

Kor01mm.jpg

 

http://www.steelnavy.com/HPKortenaerMM.htm

 

Several ships of the Fletcher Class were equipped with catapult and spotter plane. But to create place for catapult one gun and one torpedo launcher had to be removed

 

Fletcher006.jpg

 

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/seaplane-destroyers-in-the-pacific/

 

This could be interesting T7 premium, it loose too much for that plane to be at T8. There also a Clemson Class DD which was modify to carry seaplane, USS Charles Ausburn with quite unusual placing for a plane, in front of the bridge

 

h59852.jpg

 

This is what I could find about Italian Tosi destroyer proposal

 

Quote

In 1936 the Comitato Progetto Navi (the department in charge for new warships designs in the Regia Marina) was requested a study for an escort ship with anti-sub capabilities.

The unit, designed by Tosi shipyard at Taranto, was a well balanced ship, being the most critical points the presence of a seaplane (given the doubtful ability of Regia Aeronautica to actually escort convoys) and a light AA weaponry. The 120/50 mm were requested as DP in specifications, but the request was rejected from the Department in charge for the naval guns.

Specifications:

1300-1580 tons;

100 m. length at waterline;

9,75 m. max. width;

23k;

crew: 104;

3 120/50 in single mountings, 4 20/70, 6 tt 533mm in two triples, 4 deep charges launchers, 1 seaplane;

The design was discarded as too expensive and not suitable for mass production (40 units were foreseen). Soon after, the Regia Marina abandoned these studies and a project for a 300-400 tons submarine hunter derived from the Albatros class, relying instead, for the convoys’ defense, on fast armed merchant ships, armed trawlers, old torpedo boats and MAS.

 

https://stefsap.wordpress.com/2016/09/26/tosi-destroyer-escort-project-1937/

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18 hours ago, Major_Damage225 said:

I dont want to sound like a smartass, but can you put some info to go with the pics, names, armarment etc. :Smile_honoring:

sure when i get a chance.

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17 hours ago, martin035 said:

The last picture (drawn rather than a photo) is of interest, spotter/fighter plane and as a DD it would have smoke. A self spotting DD in smoke 

That would be an interesting gimmick. Maybe runtime like that of a bb? The same active and reload times of cruiser planes would be redonkuless...!

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23 minutes ago, Partykongen said:

That would be an interesting gimmick. Maybe runtime like that of a bb? The same active and reload times of cruiser planes would be redonkuless...!

 

First from what I found about that Italian DD project Tosi with spotter plane it would be quite week with only three gun mounts. But generally there is a big problem with usability of spotting plane on DDs mostly because of gun velocity. For example Fletcher with spotter plane would really struggle to hit anything at max range because of massive lead. Also due spotter plane view it would be difficult to shoot even on closer targets. I could be interesting premium but I doubt it could work with current spotter plane mechanic.

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14 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

First from what I found about that Italian DD project Tosi with spotter plane it would be quite week with only three gun mounts. But generally there is a big problem with usability of spotting plane on DDs mostly because of gun velocity. For example Fletcher with spotter plane would really struggle to hit anything at max range because of massive lead. Also due spotter plane view it would be difficult to shoot even on closer targets. I could be interesting premium but I doubt it could work with current spotter plane mechanic.

If they had a DD spotter plane i would have it work without range increase.... but still do the obviase spot enemy while ships is in smoke.. like with Perth

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7 hours ago, fumtu said:

 

First from what I found about that Italian DD project Tosi with spotter plane it would be quite week with only three gun mounts. But generally there is a big problem with usability of spotting plane on DDs mostly because of gun velocity. For example Fletcher with spotter plane would really struggle to hit anything at max range because of massive lead. Also due spotter plane view it would be difficult to shoot even on closer targets. I could be interesting premium but I doubt it could work with current spotter plane mechanic.

I was more thinking of a fighter, doing spotting, not a range increase spotter plane, but I really wasn’t clear about that. A fighter would also be (slightly) more usefull against bomber planes, if no enemy fighters are around.

And yes. If a  plane isn’t a gimmick for the complete line, I agee that its premium material.

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53 minutes ago, T0byJug said:

If they had a DD spotter plane i would have it work without range increase.... but still do the obviase spot enemy while ships is in smoke.. like with Perth

 

You mean something like current BBs fighter planes, short duration and not changing aim view.

 

38 minutes ago, Partykongen said:

I was more thinking of a fighter, doing spotting, not a range increase spotter plane, but I really wasn’t clear about that. A fighter would Aldi be (slightly) more usefull against bomber planes, if no endnu fighters are around.

And yes. If a  planeisn’t a gimmick for the complete line, I agee that its premium material.

 

That could work. There is no chance that there could be entire DD line with spotter plane consumable. There are very few DDs that actually could carry floatplane, even less that could launch one from catapult. Also few navies experimented with them but there are rarely more than one of two prototypes, two few for even the subbranch. Radar made spotter plane quite obsolete so it would be impossible to find high tier DDs for a line. Unless WG introduce a new consumable - a helicopter.

 

Still, if properly balanced ships like USS Pringle, USS Charles Ausburn or one of Admiralen class DDs could be interesting premium for lower/mid tier DD.

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12 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

You mean something like current BBs fighter planes, short duration and not changing aim view.

 

 

That could work. There is no chance that there could be entire DD line with spotter plane consumable. There are very few DDs that actually could carry floatplane, even less that could launch one from catapult. Also few navies experimented with them but there are rarely more than one of two prototypes, two few for even the subbranch. Radar made spotter plane quite obsolete so it would be impossible to find high tier DDs for a line. Unless WG introduce a new consumable - a helicopter.

 

Still, if properly balanced ships like USS Pringle, USS Charles Ausburn or one of Admiralen class DDs could be interesting premium for lower/mid tier DD.

I think the uniqueness would warrant it being a prem 

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19 hours ago, Centurion_1711 said:

There was a Dutch destroyer that used a spotter plane too, something like T5 material. I can't remember the name, but someone suggested it. That would be a very unique style of play, allowing the DD to spam BB's, spot incoming cruisers and torpedoes and generally be more self reliant than other DD's.

Maybee on t5 on t10 that spotter would be swat down like a fly wery soon, heck even perths plane on t6 rarely survives full cycle unless you are so far off that both the plane and perth itself are usless, and dont forget that plane only spots torps that it flys over at the moment, if they come from the other direction - boom

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23 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Maybee on t5 on t10 that spotter would be swat down like a fly wery soon, heck even perths plane on t6 rarely survives full cycle unless you are so far off that both the plane and perth itself are usless, and dont forget that plane only spots torps that it flys over at the moment, if they come from the other direction - boom

You can run two spotter planes, giving you a better field of detection. Still not a replacement for hydro though.

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1 hour ago, Centurion_1711 said:

You can run two spotter planes, giving you a better field of detection. Still not a replacement for hydro though.

 

On higher tiers no, hydro is way better choice. Spotter plane as DD consumable only have sense on lower/mid tiers  (T4 - T7 max). T5 and T6 would probably be the best place for them. Still would like to see one of those Fletchers with plane

 

fa4127f60d874c2a344f281a18b54612.jpg

 

2737f7656faeb5bef1e7dc8126f1ac52.jpg

 

 

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Yeah might make a decent (freexp) premium dd and without to much trouble for modeling, despite the dubious usefoulness of the planes, maybee make it support dd with less dpm but longer gun range (maybee bigger fire chance per shell) and say hydro or something so its still interesting

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Okay so if I identified correctly every photo in OP's post the branch would be made of :

 

TII Indomito
1*1 120 ; 4*1 76 ; 2*1 450 TT
672t standard, 72.5*7.3*2.33m

max 30kn

 

TIII : Rosolino Pilo

4*1 76 ; 2*1 76 (AA) ; 4*1 450 TT
770t ; 72.5*7.3*2.33m

max 29~30kn

 

TIV Soldati (1905)
4*1 76 ; 3*1 450 TT
395t ; 64.4*6.1*2.1m
max 28.5kn

 

TV : Turbine
2*2 120 ; 2*1 40 ; 1*2 13.2 ; 2*3 533 TT
1220t ; 91.3*9.2*3m
max 36kn

 

TVI : Leone
4*2 120 ; 2*1 76 ; 2*1 6.5 ; 2*3 450 TT (later modernized to 2*2 533 TT)

1745t (reached 2150t in 1938) ; 109.6*103*3.2m

max 34kn

 

TVII : Navigatori
3*2 120 ; 2*1 40 ; 2*2 13.2 ; 2*3 (533-450-533) TT (later modernized to  2*2 533 TT then 2*3 533 TT in 1939)

1935t ; 105.5*10.2*3.4m (increased to 2125t ; 109.3*11.2*4.2m after 1939 modernization)

max 38kn (decreased to 34kn after 1939 modernization) ; reached 43.5kn in trials

 

TVIII : Oriani

2*2 120 ; 4*2 13.2 ; 2*3 533 TT

1675t ; 101.6*10.2*3.42m

max 38kn

 

TIX : Soldati
2*2 120 (later modernized to 2*2 + 1*1 120) ; 4*2 + 4*1 13.2 ; 2*3 533 TT
1830t ; 101.6*10.2*3.5m

max 38kn

 

TX : Tosi Escort DD Design

3*1 120 ; 4 20 ; 2*3 533 TT

1300t ; 100*9.75m

max 23kn
Has a catapult

 

Needlessly to say there are a few things that spring to mind, such as :

The Low tiers seem all messed up. Indomito and Pilo are debatable though are defendable, even though I wouldn't risk Pilo at TIII. However, having the 1905 Soldati class in it, at TIV even, is probably a mistake. This was an older, slower, weaker and smaller class of torpedo-boats, which hardly even have their place at TII.

 

Tosi's Escort Design i definitely not suited for TX. It's small and light, very slow, and it has low firepower.

 

A more debatable point, but I do not think Leone and Navigatori have their place in a "classical" IT DD branch. Or, rather, they have as much their place there as Tribal has its place in a classical US DD branch. Due to their different ideology and purpose, they might fare better in an alternate branch, or as premiums. It would allow the branch itself to be more fluid in its continuity.

 

Now, I do not have a magical answer for an Italian DD branch either, for they aren't the easiest to balance, but I can make a proposal :

 

Spoiler

IT-2          
Rosolino Pilo 4*1 + 2*1 76
5*1 102
4*1 450 30 2*1 40 770
72.5*7.3
Giuseppe Sirtori 6*1 102 2*2 450 30 2*1 40
2*1 6.5
790
72.5*7.3
Sella 1*2 + 1*1 120 2*2 533 35 2*1 40
2*1 13.2
1140
82.5*8.6
Tosi Escort DD 3*1 120 2*3 533 30 2*3 40 1300
100*9.75
Turbine 2*2 120 2*3 533 36 2*1 40
2*1 13.2
1220
91.3*9.2
Maestrale 2*2 120
2*2 + 1*1 120
2*3 533 38 2*1 40
2*2 13.2
1615
101.6*102
Oriani 2*2 120 + 1*1 120 2*3 533 38 4*2 13.2 1675
101.6*10.2
Soldati 2*2 + 1*1 120 2*3 533 38 4*2 20 1830
101.6*10.2
Super Maestrale 3*2 120 1*3 533 OR
3*3 533
35 X 37
X 20
2100
???

 

Now I have to speak about the Super Maestrale design for just a while, because it's a rather obscure design I don't know much about. It was the result of a request by Admiral Cavagnari around 1934/35 for an improved variant of the usual DD design, that was to be equipped with 6 guns of 120mm, reach 35kn and displace 2100t.
Sadly, informations beyond these tend to be lacking in my sources for now. Besides the lack of drawing, two conflicting sources pretend this design was to have been equipped with either a single triple torpedo tube, or three triples (which sounds a bit far-fetched. Cool, but far-fetched).
I keep it as my potential TX of a regular branch, but depending on the exact specs, it might need some adjustements or not, and I'll keep looking until I find more reliable sources about it.

 

Anyway, most DDs mentionned earlier return here. One might note the presence of Tosi's Escort at tier 5 with a speed of 30kn ; it's historically incorrect but I allowed myself this modification for it otherwises fits within the continuity of the line like a glove.

 

It would be a rather "weak" DD line, restricted furing most of its existence (TV to IX) to 2*3 TT, and with main guns of 120mm ranging fro 3 to 5 at most tier, excepted the luxuray of the TX to have 6. Without amazing firepower and torpedo power, and no 40+kn speed either, balancing them would require skill and precision. Far from impossible, but I am a bit afraid when thinking about wargaming butchering the balance of such a line since they like to make minute balance operations with boxing gloves on.

 

I do also have a proposal for an alternative branch of "leaders" of some sorts :

 

Spoiler

IT-3          
Alessandro Poerio 6*1 102 2*2 450 31.5 N/A 1028
83.1*8
Carlo Mirabello 8*1 102 2*2 450 35 2*1 76
2*1 6.5
1784
101.1*9.7
AS 450 3*1 135 1*2 450 30 1*6 37 1450
87.9*10.83
Leone 4*2 120 2*3 450 34 2*1 76
2*1 6.5
1745
109.6*10.3
Navigatori 3*2 120 2*(2+1) 533+450 38 2*1 40
2*2 13.2
1935
105.5*10.2
CMO 4*1 135 2*3 533 35 12*1 37 2067
120.7*12.3
Spalato 5*1 135 1*3 533 39 5*1 37
4*2 20
2400
114.7*12
CMO pr 3*2 135 3*4 533 38 8*1 37
4*2 20
2400
120.7*12.3
Capitani
Romani
4*2 135 2*4 533 40 8*1 37
4*2 20
3686
138.7*14.4

 

To first adress the elephants in the room :
 

-AS 450 is another DD design that would have made 25kn and which I have buffed to 30 unhistorically.

 

-AS 450 offers a very strange gameplay, possessing 3 high-tir 135mm guns at a low tier, but being smaller and weaker than the rest of the line, also giving up on torps and speed. In a way, it's a break of contuinity, especially since Leone and Navigatory revert to 120mm afterwards, but it fills the position in an interesting "glass canon" fashion which should be the feeling of that line.

 

-CMO pr - stands for preliminary - is a design akin to the Super-maestrale class, on which I have little information. It does look crazy when you stare at the stats and I really hope I'll be able to bring some reliable sources in the future to back up its existence ; until I can, if you're too bothered by this DD, it's possible to imagine raising Spalato at Tier IX and fitting CMO's 3rd serie at tier VIII. I just felt that the little I knew about this preliminary CMO design (3*2 135mm, heavier displacement, faster speed) allowed a better step and thus fluidity towards Capitani Romani.

 

-Yup, that is Spalato I put at tier VIII. I know all about Split's original whereabouts, don't worry , but the rearming proposal made by the italians when they acquired the hull fits into the branch and within the CMO's continuity so well, short of... the fact that Spalato is a but shorter.
Now it DOES have weak torpedo power but the branch shouldn't rely on torpedoes to begin with. Appart from that, it's fast, has the same, good guns, but has 5 (similarly to CMO's 3rd serie), and thus makes a more balanced and logical step between CMO and Capitani Romani.

 

The gameplay of such a branch would definitely be gunboat. I'd even advise for giving them only short-range torps. They would be fast and the higher tier are not the smallest, lightest of DDs so they have plenty of room to toy with movement and eventually attempt torpedo rush attacks ; however, it remains clear that they main attractive point of the branch is firepower which is dowright arousing from TIV onwards, wether in number, caliber, or both.

 

 

These are just quick proposals I drafted without putting too much thought into it, so don't be too harsh about them please. I mostly had fun doing that.

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2 hours ago, LastButterfly said:

 

 


 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

IT-2          
Rosolino Pilo 4*1 + 2*1 76
5*1 102
4*1 450 30 2*1 40 770
72.5*7.3
Giuseppe Sirtori 6*1 102 2*2 450 30 2*1 40
2*1 6.5
790
72.5*7.3
Sella 1*2 + 1*1 120 2*2 533 35 2*1 40
2*1 13.2
1140
82.5*8.6
Tosi Escort DD 3*1 120 2*3 533 30 2*3 40 1300
100*9.75
Turbine 2*2 120 2*3 533 36 2*1 40
2*1 13.2
1220
91.3*9.2
Maestrale 2*2 120
2*2 + 1*1 120
2*3 533 38 2*1 40
2*2 13.2
1615
101.6*102
Oriani 2*2 120 + 1*1 120 2*3 533 38 4*2 13.2 1675
101.6*10.2
Soldati 2*2 + 1*1 120 2*3 533 38 4*2 20 1830
101.6*10.2
Super Maestrale 3*2 120 1*3 533 OR
3*3 533
35 X 37
X 20
2100
???

 

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

IT-3          
Alessandro Poerio 6*1 102 2*2 450 31.5 N/A 1028
83.1*8
Carlo Mirabello 8*1 102 2*2 450 35 2*1 76
2*1 6.5
1784
101.1*9.7
AS 450 3*1 135 1*2 450 30 1*6 37 1450
87.9*10.83
Leone 4*2 120 2*3 450 34 2*1 76
2*1 6.5
1745
109.6*10.3
Navigatori 3*2 120 2*(2+1) 533+450 38 2*1 40
2*2 13.2
1935
105.5*10.2
CMO 4*1 135 2*3 533 35 12*1 37 2067
120.7*12.3
Spalato 5*1 135 1*3 533 39 5*1 37
4*2 20
2400
114.7*12
CMO pr 3*2 135 3*4 533 38 8*1 37
4*2 20
2400
120.7*12.3
Capitani
Romani
4*2 135 2*4 533 40 8*1 37
4*2 20
3686
138.7*14.4


 

 

 

These are just quick proposals I drafted without putting too much thought into it, so don't be too harsh about them please. I mostly had fun doing that.

If thats quick then jesus your in depth proposals must be insane but either way nice amount of detail you put into this.

 

Sorry if the qoute is messy editing on the ipad is a pain in the arse.

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There have been quite a few Italian DD and cruiser (and BB) proposed tech trees, with actual text and specifications for why each ship fits what tier.
I got caught off guard by Leone being a tier 6 premium. I still hope we will see Italian DDs with Capitani Romani as a tier 10 and the Italian cruisers with the 250mm Ansaldo cruiser project.

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