How good is the Tirpitz now

[arcticstorm123]

1 minute ago, Negativvv said:

Oh and to everyone even though this isn't even an RN BB  topic: I'd imagine WG might have 1 more overpriced RN BB Prem in them, it's possible they could release a buffed KGV class with heavier armour that slots into T8. Then again they've had their KGV class Prem with DoY.... 

 

 

I'm sure theres some back of an envelope drawing in the British admiralty's archives they can blow the dust off of 

[principat121]

Wasn't it this way around?

 

Tirpitz     -> ninja nerfed with every even patch number (utterly useless nowadays)

Tirpitz B -> new, fresh version without all the nerfs (kinda like straight from the factory)

 

?

[MRGTB]

Is there any difference between the stock Massa and Tirp to B versions. Thought it was only the unique black camo that's different

[Ferry_25]

For me Tipitz is love. It's my overall favorite ship in this entire game. I'd happily take on in a one on one against any T10 BB every time. If you don't burn/ overmatch or whatever trick you have in those 3 salvo's before I come to you: I'll take you down. With or without me. I'll shoot, secondary shoot, torp or be the torp all the times. The only ships I really "fear" are other Tirpitz players who know what they're doing, the HE spammers from behind their islands/ in their smokes and CV's. But the latter 2 goes for all ships. The former: learn behind which islands they are lurking and let them stay there useless for the entire match and against the air *horrible disease* nothing can stop those punks. The match is already decided which side has the best WR CV player from the beginning. Take MM monitor, see the CV stats and you know the rest is a formality (you have the best CV in your team = win (=5% of the matches), you have the worst CV = loss (94,99% of the matches)). Other than those exceptions: I am still highly in love with Tirpitz.

[MRGTB]

42 minutes ago, Ferry_25 said:

For me Tipitz is love. It's my overall favorite ship in this entire game. I'd happily take on in a one on one against any T10 BB every time. If you don't burn/ overmatch or whatever trick you have in those 3 salvo's before I come to you: I'll take you down. With or without me. I'll shoot, secondary shoot, torp or be the torp all the times. The only ships I really "fear" are other Tirpitz players who know what they're doing, the HE spammers from behind their islands/ in their smokes and CV's. But the latter 2 goes for all ships. The former: learn behind which islands they are lurking and let them stay there useless for the entire match and against the air *horrible disease* nothing can stop those punks. The match is already decided which side has the best WR CV player from the beginning. Take MM monitor, see the CV stats and you know the rest is a formality (you have the best CV in your team = win (=5% of the matches), you have the worst CV = loss (94,99% of the matches)). Other than those exceptions: I am still highly in love with Tirpitz.

Hmm, you'll have a hard time beating the Massa one v one. Same secondary each really, but Massa has much better main guns. I did face a Tirp today with another ship shooting at me with him. And I died just before killing the tirp. He couldn't match me on guns close up. I wrecked him close up and secondary between both is really no different to make much of a difference. It'll boil down to main guns and Tirp can't match the Massa on that, unless he gets his torps in to win. You won't beat a Massa on secondary guns close up, if you think you can rely on that winning the fight compared to other BB's with poor secondary guns. They are too evenly matched while the massa can outgun a Tirp easy with main battery guns close up.

 

But sure, yeah you have the torps that makes that difference if you get a hit

[GulvkluderGuld]

2 hours ago, GaryThomasBolton said:

Hmm, you'll have a hard time beating the Massa one v one. Same secondary each really, but Massa has much better main guns. I did face a Tirp today with another ship shooting at me with him. And I died just before killing the tirp. He couldn't match me on guns close up. I wrecked him close up and secondary between both is really no different to make much of a difference. It'll boil down to main guns and Tirp can't match the Massa on that, unless he gets his torps in to win. You won't beat a Massa on secondary guns close up, if you think you can rely on that winning the fight compared to other BB's with poor secondary guns. They are too evenly matched while the massa can outgun a Tirp easy with main battery guns close up.

 

But sure, yeah you have the torps that makes that difference if you get a hit

Been having a blast in my newly aquired Bismarck recently and this puzzles me a bit. Does Massa not have a citadel like NC?

 

I've taken down full hp Musashis and Yamatos by getting to brawling distance and nuking their citadels (and their guns are even better than Massas)

So my question is, why do you think main guns matter that much?

Unless the tirp/bis tried to use back guns, you cant reliably do more than 4-5k a volley with HE. AP on superstructure while often better, produces extremely variable results. And once you go broadside to broadside at 1-2 km vs a tirpitz, there is only one outcome (40k+ torp alpha)

 

The only way I see Massa win, is if it has the bow pointing away so it can run at full speed, shooting over the shoulder (in which case, it certainly wins by virtue of main battery being better). Certainly a possible scenario, as taking Tirpitz dispersion into account, turning usually doesnt get punished all that hard, as long as it is done outside 10 km (my usual NC way of dealing with those cave-man Torpitz freaks)

 

 

 

[remenberMYname]

i was like to ready buy tirpitz. but.---

 

 

i kill him easy with lion,..or lyon. so no motivation, better to use this cash for permanent camo for X tier, then you even get much more credits. 

 

done!

[RAMJB]

3 hours ago, GaryThomasBolton said:

Hmm, you'll have a hard time beating the Massa one v one. Same secondary each really, but Massa has much better main guns. I did face a Tirp today with another ship shooting at me with him. And I died just before killing the tirp. He couldn't match me on guns close up. I wrecked him close up and secondary between both is really no different to make much of a difference. It'll boil down to main guns and Tirp can't match the Massa on that, unless he gets his torps in to win. You won't beat a Massa on secondary guns close up, if you think you can rely on that winning the fight compared to other BB's with poor secondary guns. They are too evenly matched while the massa can outgun a Tirp easy with main battery guns close up.

 

But sure, yeah you have the torps that makes that difference if you get a hit

 

I think you must've been fighting a lot of derp players in tirpitz lately. Because against a proper played one, Massa is food.

Only advantage Massa has is it's guns. Theoretically. In practice, no, they aren't any advantage. The only scenario where those guns will do anything serious to a tirpitz is if the tirpitz is out of autobounce angles - and if he is so, he's a moron. Bow on they don't do squat to the hull (neither Tirpitz nor Massa can overmatch each other), your only solution is shooting at the guns and superstructure...and he can do that too on you. You have 6 guns in front, he has four, but he has a 25 second reload on those, you have 30. 

Once both ships' superstructure is saturated (and it doesn't take much), what's left for those big guns to do damage on?. Nothing. So much nothing that you'll be better served by loading HE. So much for an advantage. Not to mention that with 1.7 sigma is not exactly as if we were speaking about yamato-accurate guns here. Not that the german guns are precise either, but the threat aren't his guns, exactly.

The thing here is that yes, Massa has bigger guns, but if he doesn't show broadside (and no decent player will), you're not achieving much with them. And that's the death's knell for massa, because he's not going to kill you with those guns. He's going to kill you with his torps. and you don't have those. Tirpitz is not one of those ships that if in the cross doesn't kill you ends in an awkward spot of having a dude on his rear and has to maneouver to get his guns on him again to finish the job. Tirpitz will nuke you with citadels in the cross, and if he doesn't, he'll nuke you with his torps, and if he doesn't he will nuke you with his other side's torps. The only outcome for a Massa in that situation is getting nuked either way. The outcome for Tirpitz is a potential 9 gun volley on his broadside none of which will be a citadel, because that ship is impossible to citadel at short range. It'll hurt, for sure, but he won't be nuked, while Massa can't say the same.

So in a situation where both ships start bow on to each other all tirpitz has to do is to press W four times, ctrl-click you, use main guns to raze the superstructures and then switch to HE to add to the secondary barbecue, and ,once the cross is imminent, hold fire with AP with all guns preaimed at where your waterline will be when the cross happens and you're broadside to him...
Did I mention he can (and WILL) citadel you from the broadside, while you can't do the same to him?. Sure, he'll take a serious hit, but nothing compared with several citadels.

And if you somehow survive THAT, then he has 8 torps, and you have none. 4 one side on the cross, after the cross Tirpitz turns to the other side, lets loose with the other 4 in case you survived both the cross nuking and the first torpedo volley sledgehammer. Sooner or later it'll be over. No Massa survives a point blank eight 380mm volley to it's broadside, plus two consecutive 4 torp volleys. But a Tirpitz can happily live on after taking nine 406mms to his broadside, simply because none will be a citadel, and because there'll be no torps afterwards.


Secondaries you say?. Oh sure, Massa's fire very quickly, they set things on fire. You know the german 105mms also fire really fast, and they also set things on fire with ease, right?.
Besides, those 127mms will do almost no damage (HE pen is laughable in them and even with IFHE they can't do damage to a T8 BB's hull). The german 105mms won't fare much better vs you...but turns out, Tirpitz also has 150mms. And those WILL hurt you because with the 1/4 german HE pen, they can damage your hull, while your secondaries do jack on his.

The only situation where Massa's secondaries are truly better is when both ships are parked 10km away from each other because at that range Massa's accuracy bonus will kick in and make a big difference in the mid term because of the fires the secondaries will start. Damage wise they won't do anything, but you'll be causing a lot more fires on him than he is on you, because you'll be getting a lot more hits on him than what he's getting on you.

But that is if both ships are parked 10km away from each other. Tirpitz won't park at 10km. Tirpitz will come in for the kill at full speed. Will close range FAST, and the closer the range not only he'll hit you more consistently with his secondaries, the closer the range, the more the accuracy bonus you have will turn against you: your secondaries will tend to focus on his center of mass (it's how their accuracy is coded), meaning that if you cause a fire, you won't cause more because your secondaries will be hitting roughly the same spot, while his will be showering the whole of your ship, potentially causing multiple fires, not just one.

And you can't do anything to prevent that. Well you can try backing. But your backing speed is 1/3 of his top speed. If it looks dicey, it's because it is. A Tirpitz coming for the kill against a Massa caught stopped bow on only has one counter, you turning around and trying to run. But that has two downsides; first, that to do that you have to show your broadside at distances under 10km, Massa is extremely vulnerable from the broadside, and Tirpitz guns may be wonky, but they won't miss a BB sized target from that range. That's asking for a spanking. And second that even if you are able to complete your turn without being nuked, Tirpitz is still 3 knots faster than you. He'll end up catching up. and then it'll be over.

Tirpitz is the king brawler of battleships-barring the Yamato sisters and the british T9-T10 napalm throwers (specially Conqueror), even the massive T10 monsters have trouble when one that knows what he's doing surprises then close enough while stopped on the water, and comes in for the kill. Sure that the Tirpitz won't get out unscathed of the experience, but that it can really put a T10 BB monster into serious trouble is proof enough of how incredibly brutal this thing is when close in. Other BBs have torps, but they're nowhere as good as Tirpitz is. The Scharnhorst twins have armor that's overmatched by anything larger than 356mm guns, and 8km range secondaries only. Mutsu's torps are almost useless in a brawl on top of being on a supersquishy hull. Kii lacks the secondaries and the citadel invulnerability. Tirpitz has it all - overmatch-proof plating (except against the Yamatos), turtleback AND torpedoes. It's an absolute beast.

So no, a Massachussets stands absolutely no chance against one. As long as the tirpitz guy is not braindead and doesn't show broadside, that is. The problem is that 99% of Tirpitzes are Derpitzes, and will do just that. And then yes, then Massa will kick it's [edited]. But only then.

 

 

[Miscommunication_dept]

At 11km and closer I would say a Tirpitz is a fair bit stronger one-on-one mostly due to the superior armour.

 

If they charge each other the Mass will have to  turn at some point to avoid torps and she can be citadelled.

 

However, secondary range is very situational, neither can brawl  with destroyers so any brawling will be late game.

I haven't fired Massa's guns but Alabama's guns are far superior even to GK's guns and more accurate than Scharnhorst's.

 

Massa is more effective for the first 60% of a battle which probably explains it's better stats.

 

 

(Glad I'm not the only person who thinks the Hood is a great ship!)

[arcticstorm123]

Hood is a great ship, doesn't stop Wargaming being mean to her.......

 

[Kenliero]

6 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Been having a blast in my newly aquired Bismarck recently and this puzzles me a bit. Does Massa not have a citadel like NC?

 

I've taken down full hp Musashis and Yamatos by getting to brawling distance and nuking their citadels (and their guns are even better than Massas)

So my question is, why do you think main guns matter that much?

Unless the tirp/bis tried to use back guns, you cant reliably do more than 4-5k a volley with HE. AP on superstructure while often better, produces extremely variable results. And once you go broadside to broadside at 1-2 km vs a tirpitz, there is only one outcome (40k+ torp alpha)

 

The only way I see Massa win, is if it has the bow pointing away so it can run at full speed, shooting over the shoulder (in which case, it certainly wins by virtue of main battery being better). Certainly a possible scenario, as taking Tirpitz dispersion into account, turning usually doesnt get punished all that hard, as long as it is done outside 10 km (my usual NC way of dealing with those cave-man Torpitz freaks)

 

 

 

I have played a lot of secondary builds, including Tirpitz and Massa. From those 2 Massa is way better.

 

The reason Massa wins duel against Tirpitz, is for 4 main reasons.

1: Massa doesn't have to angle much at all to fire all main guns, thus not taking much any damage at all.

2: Gun arcs in secondaries are so high that most shots hit the superstructure, PENETRATING Tirpitz.

3: More accurate secondaries from long range.

4: Better main battery

 

The only way Tirpitz can win a duel against Massa, is if Massa player is an idiot and closes the gap too fast and gets eaten by torps. The way you play Massa, is that you do NOT go all in, you in fact reverse to keep distance with accurate secondaries and stay only slightly angled. If both are good players, Massa wins every time. Also, in Massa you need to put all on secondaries, including BFT and IFHE, to kill enemies BEFORE they rush you. If you miss captain points to get BFT and IFHE, you end up dead. Thus Massa works properly only with 19 point captain. I think the most Massas you see in randoms don't have 19 point captains and that is why you can kill them with your Tirpitz.

[RAMJB]

46 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

 

I haven't fired Massa's guns but Alabama's guns are far superior even to GK's guns and more accurate than Scharnhorst's.

 

 

 

 

Wat.

 

-GK's 420mm guns do more damage per shell with AP rounds

-GK's reload is affected by the reload mod, giving it higher rate of fire

-GK's 420mm guns have VASTLY superior shell speed (easier to aim at moving targets)

-GK's 420mm guns have VASTLY more pen at all ranges

-GK's 420mm guns have 41% fire chance with HE vs Alabama's 36%, 50% more pen due to 1/4 rule. They do less damage per shell tho.
 

Alabama's guns are somewhat more accurate, particularily so at long ranges. But GK carries 12 of them vs Alabama's 9 which more than makes up for it.

The american 16''/45 gun is very good. But there's no way they are "Far superior even to GK's guns". Not even close.

[RAMJB]

33 minutes ago, Kenliero said:

I have played a lot of secondary builds, including Tirpitz and Massa. From those 2 Massa is way better.

 

The reason Massa wins duel against Tirpitz, is for 4 main reasons.

1: Massa doesn't have to angle much at all to fire all main guns, thus not taking much any damage at all.

2: Gun arcs in secondaries are so high that most shots hit the superstructure, PENETRATING Tirpitz.

3: More accurate secondaries from long range.

4: Better main battery

 

The only way Tirpitz can win a duel against Massa, is if Massa player is an idiot and closes the gap too fast and gets eaten by torps. The way you play Massa, is that you do NOT go all in, you in fact reverse to keep distance with accurate secondaries and stay only slightly angled. If both are good players, Massa wins every time. Also, in Massa you need to put all on secondaries, including BFT and IFHE, to kill enemies BEFORE they rush you. If you miss captain points to get BFT and IFHE, you end up dead. Thus Massa works properly only with 19 point captain. I think the most Massas you see in randoms don't have 19 point captains and that is why you can kill them with your Tirpitz.

 

1- Neither does Tirpitz, which has pretty good turret angles. But is pretty much academical - if you can't overmatch, those guns won't deal damage fast enough to work through his health in time before he's crossing you. And once you're there, you're dead.

2- Only true at long range, where Massa's secondaries do have an advantage. The closer you get, the lower they get. UNder 7km those shells are hitting hull mostly. Under 6km they're hitting only hull. Besides, doing superstructure damage doesn't help - what will you fire at with your main guns?. Yep. His superstructure. Once it's saturated (and it only takes a couple good volleys), your secondaries hitting the superstructure will net no damage at all. BTW you're in the same position- he will be shooting at YOUR superstructure until it's shot up and saturated. difference here is that half of Tirpitz's secondaries can pen your hull while your secondaries can't pen his.

3-Completely irrelevant. He can steam at 30 knots, your best speed is 27.5 knots and to get that you have to turn around (nice broadside you have there). If you back up at full speed you slow the closure rate to 20-ish knots. Not enough (not by far). Essentially Tirpitz due to it's higher speed controls the range of the engagement, you can't do jack to stay at a range if he decides he wants to go for you. And obviously, he will want to do so.

4-again probably the lesser factor in this engagement is the main battery: as long as you can't overmatch, your ability to deal front damage to a Tirpitz coming to rip your guts open with them is severely limited. And you can't overmatch Tirpitz. So can't he, but again, that's the issue, once the engagement comes to a cross he will cit the holy bejeezus out of you and torp you into oblivion while you won't do either of them to him. You go back to port, he goes back to killing moar stuff.



One more advantage is, btw, that as you said Massa's usefulness drops SIGNIFICANTLY without IFHE. Tirpitz gains nothing from it, it's secondary is as threatening with or without IFHE (in fact IFHE is a mostly wasted skill in all german BBs bar Gneisenau and GK), so those are 4 points he can (and will) use in Concealment expert while you need the trio of AFT-Manual secondaries-IFHE if you want to rely on those secondaries, leaving you no space for CE.


The reason why Tirpitz is doing significantly worse stat wise is three fold:

-Tirpitz is A LOT older, initially the ammount of them sold was staggering, I think we all remember those battles where there were 10 Tirpitzes vs 10 Tirpitzes and a couple of (very lucky) destroyers per team. The vast majority of those who got the ship were crimson red potatoes who had no idea of what they were doing, and accordingly for a VERY long time having a tirpitz in your team was considered as a tremendously bad omen (because most of the players using it were simply stated, braindead). Massa has had a much more limited popularity; sure there are potatoes in it but the average player quality on that ship is far larger than the one that Tirpitz suffered from for a very, very, very, long time, and accordingly the cumulative stats show a worse stat for Tirpitz.

 

-Tirpitz initially was not as good as it is now, the secondary range was seriously limited. One of the main reasons the ship is a powerhouse was not so for a very long timespan, and the stats, let's remember it, are the cumulative results in the whole of a ship's lifetime in the game, so those stats include the very long timeframe where Tirpitz secondaries weren't better than any other BB at that time.

-And mainly, and mostly, because the freaking stupid, idiotic, and retarded AP bombs, an abomination that should NEVER have been introduced in this game, make it possible for a Tirpitz to be pretty much deleted in the first two minutes of battle if a CV decides to do so. Massachussets doesn't suffer from this horrific design mistake,has FAR better AAA, and takes nowhere near the same ammount of damage from AP bombers as Tirpitz does.

 

That is a -significant- problem with this ship (and bismarck. And FDG. And Scharn. And Gneisenau), in any battle involving an american T8 or avobe CV, a Tirpitz is pretty much dead the second the CV wishes to see it dead. And obviously that has a huge statistical influence in the overall stats.

[Migantium_Mashum]

25 minutes ago, RAMJB said:

 

 

Wat.

 

-GK's 420mm guns do more damage per shell with AP rounds

-GK's reload is affected by the reload mod, giving it higher rate of fire

-GK's 420mm guns have VASTLY superior shell speed (easier to aim at moving targets)

-GK's 420mm guns have VASTLY more pen at all ranges

-GK's 420mm guns have 41% fire chance with HE vs Alabama's 36%, 50% more pen due to 1/4 rule. They do less damage per shell tho.
 

Alabama's guns are somewhat more accurate, particularily so at long ranges. But GK carries 12 of them vs Alabama's 9 which more than makes up for it.

The american 16''/45 gun is very good. But there's no way they are "Far superior even to GK's guns". Not even close.

Now you've done it.. GK nerf coming.

 

I still have my Tirpitz and take her out occasionally. Last game I had in her was pretty good.. Lucky last torpedo from enemy CV damaged rudder and Jutland was able to get in for a torpedo strike...almost a copy of how the Bismarck died in the Atlantic... and my kill was Massa after we went toe to toe.... kindly ate my 4 torpedoes and flooded.

 

 

 

 

[RAMJB]

2 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

Now you've done it.. GK nerf coming.

1

 

Don't think that a ship's T10 guns being better than another ship's T8 guns is going to end up in any kind of nerf xD.

[Migantium_Mashum]

1 minute ago, RAMJB said:

 

Don't think that a ship's T10 guns being better than another ship's T8 guns is going to end up in any kind of nerf xD.

WG has been doing some strange things lately, but I was only joking...

[RAMJB]

1 minute ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

WG has been doing some strange things lately, but I was only joking...

 

I guess you were, but after Yueyang's "balancing action" one has learned to expect the unexpected anyway XDDDD

[Kenliero]

7 minutes ago, RAMJB said:

 

1- Neither does Tirpitz, which has pretty good turret angles. But is pretty much academical - if you can't overmatch, those guns won't deal damage fast enough to work through his health in time before he's crossing you. And once you're there, you're dead.

2- Only true at long range, where Massa's secondaries do have an advantage. The closer you get, the lower they get. UNder 7km those shells are hitting hull mostly. Under 6km they're hitting only hull. Besides, doing superstructure damage doesn't help - what will you fire at with your main guns?. Yep. His superstructure. Once it's saturated (and it only takes a couple good volleys), your secondaries hitting the superstructure will net no damage at all. BTW you're in the same position- he will be shooting at YOUR superstructure until it's shot up and saturated. difference here is that half of Tirpitz's secondaries can pen your hull while your secondaries can't pen his.

3-Completely irrelevant. He can steam at 30 knots, your best speed is 27.5 knots and to get that you have to turn around (nice broadside you have there). If you back up at full speed you slow the closure rate to 20-ish knots. Not enough (not by far). Essentially Tirpitz due to it's higher speed controls the range of the engagement, you can't do jack to stay at a range if he decides he wants to go for you. And obviously, he will want to do so.

4-again probably the lesser factor in this engagement is the main battery: as long as you can't overmatch, your ability to deal front damage to a Tirpitz coming to rip your guts open with them is severely limited. And you can't overmatch Tirpitz. So can't he, but again, that's the issue, once the engagement comes to a cross he will cit the holy bejeezus out of you and torp you into oblivion while you won't do either of them to him. You go back to port, he goes back to killing moar stuff.



One more advantage is, btw, that as you said Massa's usefulness drops SIGNIFICANTLY without IFHE. Tirpitz gains nothing from it, it's secondary is as threatening with or without IFHE (in fact IFHE is a mostly wasted skill in all german BBs bar Gneisenau and GK), so those are 4 points he can (and will) use in Concealment expert while you need the trio of AFT-Manual secondaries-IFHE if you want to rely on those secondaries, leaving you no space for CE.


The reason why Tirpitz is doing significantly worse stat wise is three fold:

-Tirpitz is A LOT older, initially the ammount of them sold was staggering, I think we all remember those battles where there were 10 Tirpitzes vs 10 Tirpitzes and a couple of (very lucky) destroyers per team. The vast majority of those who got the ship were crimson red potatoes who had no idea of what they were doing, and accordingly for a VERY long time having a tirpitz in your team was considered as a tremendously bad omen (because most of the players using it were simply stated, braindead). Massa has had a much more limited popularity; sure there are potatoes in it but the average player quality on that ship is far larger than the one that Tirpitz suffered from for a very, very, very, long time, and accordingly the cumulative stats show a worse stat for Tirpitz.

 

-Tirpitz initially was not as good as it is now, the secondary range was seriously limited. One of the main reasons the ship is a powerhouse was not so for a very long timespan, and the stats, let's remember it, are the cumulative results in the whole of a ship's lifetime in the game, so those stats include the very long timeframe where Tirpitz secondaries weren't better than any other BB at that time.

-And mainly, and mostly, because the freaking stupid, the retarded AP bombs, an abomination that should NEVER have been introduced in this game, make it possible for a Tirpitz  to be pretty much deleted in the first two minutes of battle if a CV decides to do so. Massachussets doesn't suffer from this horrific design mistake and takes nowhere near the same ammount of damage from AP bombers as Tirpitz does. That is a -significant- problem with this ship (and bismarck. And FDG. And Scharn. And Gneisenau), in any battle involving an american T8 or avobe CV, a Tirpitz is pretty much dead the second the CV wishes to see it dead. And obviously that has a huge statistical influence.

Ok. I just realized that I am discussing this with player who has never even played Massa.... which explains why you do not understand the angling part and the high gun arcs.. They are high arcs EVEN from 6km. I have played a lot of battles in both ships and Massa is superior to Tirpitz.

Also, the angles where these ships fire secondaries are TOTALLY different. Tirpitz can not fire from tight angles like Massa, like you said. Obviously because you have not played Massa, so you can not actually know the significance of this.

 

Accuracy irrelevant? Are we actually playing the same game? Accuracy if something matters most in ALL GUNS...

 

Buy Massa and play few games and you will see the light...

 

 

[RAMJB]

Haven't play massa. I don't see the point in paying for a ship that has no use as a trainer for my captains (there's no use for a captain that needs manual secs, IFHE and AFT in the whole american set).

But I have played plenty of North Carolina and Alabama. Gun arcs are almost identical on the three, are exactly the same between 'Bama and Massa. They don't make any difference - you will just saturate his superstructure faster, after that those guns won't do too much

Accuracy is irrelevant in this engagement. Bow on vs Bow on, you can bounce more shells off his hull or rearrange his superstructure a bit more for no extra damage, once it's saturated. Accuracy is NOT irrelevant in the scope of the whole match however. Massa's main battery is superior to Tirpitz's, no question about that. But in an 1vs1 encounter that accuracy isn't going to help much as long as the Tirpitz doesn't step out of autobounce angles.

Massa' 5'' secondary turrets are identical to those of Gearing, and the ballistics are the same. The secondary gun mechanics on this game aim your secondaries at the center of mass of the enemy ship. Try this: get a gearing in a training room,  get at 6km, put the pipper on center of mass (which is roughly 2/3 up the hull on most warships) and note how many of those shells hit the hull vs how many hit the superstructure. Do the same at 8km. Note the difference, come back here and repeat that part again.

Will ALL shells hit the hull?. No. But most will...and even those which don't will be hitting a saturated superstructure and deal no damage. Because you **were** shooting at that ship's superstructure with your main guns to begin with, weren't you?. This whole point is irrelevant because of that very reason anyway.


Tirpitz can fire with up to 2 105mm and 2 150mm secondaries per side while keeping well within autobounce angles. In fact Tirpitz has a notable advantage over Bismarck in the secondary department precisely because her secondaries are better arranged for forward fire (Bismarck has trouble getting the 2nd 105mm turret into proper angle without risking getting out of autobounce angles).

Those are 8 guns firing at you, 4 of which fire 25% faster than your 127mms, 4 of which fire slower but can overmatch your bows and deal consistent damage.

 

Now tell me, even firing with the WHOLE battery on your Massa's side...how many guns are those?. oh. 10, you say?. only 6 of which have a clearcut view to the front?. 8 when angled close to autobounce angle, but not within it? None of which can overmatch?
Wow. What a massive, massive surprise. 8 guns (best case scenario because to unmask the 4th turret I'm pretty sure you MUST go out of autobounce angles in the Massa) vs 8 guns. I'm sure that'll make a huge difference

Massa's secondaries are better from 10km down to 7-8km where the accuracy bonus really kicks in. Under that Tirpitz's mix of faster 105mm reload and overmatching 150mm takes over EXCEEDINGLY quicky.

I don't know how many good players you've jousted in your Massa, mate, but I've jousted a fair bit of VERY good Massa players in my Tirpitz. And if I had the chance to rush them they simply were left without options: Tirpitz can, and will, rush a Massa before the Massa's better main guns become a factor, the secondaries only are better beyond 8km (and again Tirpitz will close too fast for them doing too much in the small time window where they are superior). Massa is slower, has no turtleback, and has no torps. It's not even close

There's a good reason why every good player in a Massa says it's not a brawler and that everything should be done to prevent it from entering a brawling contest. Tirpitz IS the best brawler BB of the game, and has the speed to force a brawl on a Massa 1v1. It's just as simple as that.

[BLUB__BLUB]

Come on, Tirptiz is still good. Unless it is a Derpitz, you will find out quickly though.

There's lots of them around  always watch carefully in my slow T6 US BB. 

Derpitz tastes nice, Tirpitz can pretty much bite your butt if you're not any good.

[bloodynicknames]

Just subjective impression but the tirpitz it not what it once was. It's strength lie in mid- to close-range encounters but with its relatively poor concealment in the current meta it just gets HE spammed and will be at half health before it can even get to the spot where she shines. 

T8 MM is screwing her over even more. It used to be that people ran when derpitz started pushing close but these days they just shrug it off. 

[Miscommunication_dept]

I once tested the Scharnhorst secondaries with and without manual fire control. Against battleships at 7 km or less the Scharnhorst without took significantly less time to kill  a New Mexico than the one with manual secondaries. The irony is at close range you want secondaries to spray so fires are set all over the ship.

 

[Kenliero]

56 minutes ago, RAMJB said:

There's a good reason why every good player in a Massa says it's not a brawler and that everything should be done to prevent it from entering a brawling contest. Tirpitz IS the best brawler BB of the game, and has the speed to force a brawl on a Massa 1v1. It's just as simple as that.

Yeah. the optimal range to fight with Massa is 10-11km. Not 6km. Everyone is saying that, including me.

It's still way better ship than Tirpitz in secondary battle. Also, you assume that every time the ships engage each other in secondaries, it is bow on and you are already engaging in full speed right towards Massa. That rarely happens in actual fight and if you play Massa intelligently, you never engage ships like that.

You play Massa more like a cruiser. You hit enemies behind islands, over the islands, just like with Atlanta. That is the most effective way to kill ships with secondaries. No other ship can do the way Massa does. 

I could pummel your Tirpitz long before you can even get your guns to Massa, if even one of us have any kind of island cover.

 

You know what, I'm tired of discussing this subject with person who actually have zero experience with 50% of the ships in comparison. You've stuck your head in sand with your favorite ship and stand your ground without actually knowing better. You compare it to something like North Carolina, which is totally different animal. Your whole argument is based only on stats instead of actually playing the ships, so, I rest my case.

[BLUB__BLUB]

20 minutes ago, bloodynicknames said:

Just subjective impression but the tirpitz it not what it once was. It's strength lie in mid- to close-range encounters but with its relatively poor concealment in the current meta it just gets HE spammed and will be at half health before it can even get to the spot where she shines. 

T8 MM is screwing her over even more. It used to be that people ran when derpitz started pushing close but these days they just shrug it off. 

 

Well, if it is any help, just about ANY BB gets HE spammed to death nowadays. 

I used to be able to brawl in USA BBs (< 5km, bam bam!) but that also just doesn't work anymore.

There's just too much HE spam, no matter what tier but getting worse with higher than T6. 

When detected, everybody sees a big burn-piñata and if you cannot hide then you are toast.

[bloodynicknames]

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

 

Well, if it is any help, just about ANY BB gets HE spammed to death nowadays. 

I used to be able to brawl in USA BBs (< 5km, bam bam!) but that also just doesn't work anymore.

There's just too much HE spam, no matter what tier but getting worse with higher than T6. 

When detected, everybody sees a big burn-piñata and if you cannot hide then you are toast.

 

well, in the montana at least(the only BB i still play mind you) its ok. you can survive for a good while