BB AP on DD's not working as intended

[ApesTogetherStronK]

4 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

how about you dd mains can calm  for now?

I'm a cruiser main. 

And I reported this....while playing a battleship because I did too much damage. 

I like DD play, but it's frustrating and I'm well aware of why the AP damage had to be nerfed in the first place. 

 

[DFens_666]

7 hours ago, camouflage_cat said:

 

It happens to all ships, even BB. I had some situations, where I got more damage from one penetration than it should, when I shot BB.

 

Actually you are right. I remembered an incident not too long ago, where i did 38572 damage with my Musashi on a Montana, while it should have been 30932 damage.

 

Spoiler

 

14800 + 3x4884 + 1480 equals not 38572.

 

21 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

i did it for myself in the first day and i could only over pen the dds. tried with kronstadt and north carolina and from every angle i was doing only 900 and 1310 damage with an ap shell. 

 

Read my earlier post and see screens (page 1). DD has to move and turn. But i think its true for the other classes aswell if you want to eat more damage

 

[wilkatis_LV]

25 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

also how about you dd mains can calm  for now?

<- this guy has been whining about multi-hits on DDs by BB AP for over a year by now

 

<- also this guy has played these ships:

 

DD main confirmed

 

 

25 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

i am pretty sure the new mechanic works.

Any single HIT does no more than 10% of its potential dmg, yeah. Sadly enough the actual problem where the shell HITS multiple times clearly still exists

 

25 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

time to buff some battleships.

Oh please

 

25 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

gascone. roma, bismarck, tirpitz, kii, monarch, american bbs from t3-to t7

• Gascogne - no idea
• Roma - doesn't need it
• Bismark / Derpitz -

• Kii - fine as she is
• Monarch - finally something sensible. Btw, WG's nerfing it
• US BBs?
  • S.Carol - better than Kawachi. Good enough
  • Wyoming - why would you?
  • NY - yes
  • NewMex - she's fine
  • Colorado - already buffed quite a lot

 

25 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

And are you sure this is not from the previous version???

Rather obviously

 

25 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

If you are not sure, go to training room and test it for yourself.

Read through the thread. It evolved - including game examples, training rooms, stuff like that - during this patch. Everything is fresh new here.

[Animalul2012]

14 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

<- this guy has been whining about multi-hits on DDs by BB AP for over a year by now

 

<- also this guy has played these ships:

 

DD main confirmed

 

 

Any single HIT does no more than 10% of its potential dmg, yeah. Sadly enough the actual problem where the shell HITS multiple times clearly still exists

 

Oh please

 

• Gascogne - no idea
• Roma - doesn't need it
• Bismark / Derpitz -

• Kii - fine as she is
• Monarch - finally something sensible. Btw, WG's nerfing it
• US BBs?
  • S.Carol - better than Kawachi. Good enough
  • Wyoming - why would you?
  • NY - yes
  • NewMex - she's fine
  • Colorado - already buffed quite a lot

 

Rather obviously

 

Read through the thread. It evolved - including game examples, training rooms, stuff like that - during this patch. Everything is fresh new here.

WHAT???

-kii with that horrible dispersion and useless torpedoes, the only thing it has is AA.

-bismarck and tirpitz are almost useless thanks to awful dispersion, the 105 secondarys dont do any damage, bad or mediocre aa, alright maneuverability and that is pretty much. bismarck has hydro so it is quite useful but tirpitz torpedoes break all the time and you are going to use them in 1 out of 100 matches.

roma- guns that can not kill=trash ship just like the kronstadt( horrible dispersion even worse than the germans and overpens anything)

gascone= 8 guns, 4 in the front 4 in the back and they have almost the same bad dispersion as the germans. you got no super heal, 32mm of armor everywhere so the BALANCED DDS WILL HAVE FUN( AKIZUKI, KITAKAZE, AND HARUCANCER). and you got speed. well better than colorado 21knots but this is not world of tanks where speed>armor.

also in what world is FDG not needing any buffs right now?? stop being so biased towards battleships and support all classes. otherwise you/we will get one OP class that will dominate the game just like medium tanks dominate in wot! 

[mrk421]

It seems quite obvious, that the instances of one shell causing damage multiple times, are the result of dividing ships into multiple damage zones, an artifact of their design decisions, if you will. WG saying it's a "feature" they planned to have in the game is a pretty lame excuse at trying to sugarcoat the situation and escape having to fix it. But it needs to be fixed! Maybe it used to be a pretty rare occurrance in the past, but seems to be happening frequently enough by now that it must no longer be ignored.

 

I can appreciate, that during a battle lots of shells are hitting ships simultaneously, shells are flying, ships are moving and maneuvering, there's communications delays between server-client etc. Therefore, it's possible, that any additional checks they could implement to sort out the damage calculations, might put too much strain on the servers and cause performance issues. It's even possible, that in order to keep the performance, they'd have to overhaul the whole process how damage is calculated/applied. But I think it's needed, because it's important to have fair and accurate damage results. I mean, if it wasn't important, you might as well do away with any calculations and replace them with simple random damage rolls...

 

17 hours ago, mariouus said:

It kind of should. Having a single shell going trought the lenght of the ship, should damage a ship more than a shell that goes from beam to beam.

I can see your point and agree with it to an extent. But even then it doesn't make any sense that if 2 shells enter the ship at the same angle, travel the exact same distance inside the hull before exiting, one of them does 2 times the damage of the other one, just because its trajectory happened to go through 2 "sections" rather than just 1...

[wilkatis_LV]

Even if it's not on-topic:

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, Animalul2012 said:

kii with that horrible dispersion

*khm*

IJN BBs have THE BEST horizontal dispersion of all BBs. That includes Kii. Yeah, vertical is slightly off, but since those arcs are so flat it mostly doesn't matter.

 

In fact, the only difference between Kii and Amagi - which btw happens to be a really really accurate t8 BB - is the 1.7 vs 1.8 sigma, which will maybe account for like 1% less shells hit out of every 100 Amagis hits.

 

1 hour ago, Animalul2012 said:

useless torpedoes

Actually not useless

 

1 hour ago, Animalul2012 said:

he only thing it has is AA.

and it's hilarious in a CV div

 

1 hour ago, Animalul2012 said:

-bismarck and tirpitz are

... 2 of the strongest t8 BBs. Barely any weaknesses at all. Especially since Derpitz probably is the single most buffed ship in the whole game

 

1 hour ago, Animalul2012 said:

roma (..) gascone

These 2 sound like a case of git gud

 

1 hour ago, Animalul2012 said:

also in what world is FDG not needing any buffs right now??

in this one, as it already got buffed in this patch

 

1 hour ago, Animalul2012 said:

stop being so biased towards battleships and support all classes.

You surely mean against not towards? Bcuz you are heavily biased towards BBs ignoring everything else. BBs are fine, at least wast majority. There are stinkers like Monarch or NY, but they are few and far between.

 

1 hour ago, Animalul2012 said:

otherwise you/we will get one OP class that will dominate the game just like medium tanks dominate in wot! 

You do realize that BBs are by far the most played class for the longest time, right? That pretty much is dominating lol

 

 

On topic:

Hopped into a training room with a clanmate, me in Monty, he in a Gearing. Told him to just do full-rudder circles while I'm firing at him.  A single training room 1v1 test, so at a very small scale, but regardless, the results are:

• 4 salvos landed
  • 2 highly unlikely to multi-hit (1x broadside, 1x hit the furthest part of his ship)
  • 1 where it probably could have happened but didn't
  • 1 where 2 shells did dmg of 3

So if it's doable even in a 1v1 with the minimal possible server resources required... surely that can't be just some server de-sync causing it?

[mariouus]

1 hour ago, mrk421 said:

I can see your point and agree with it to an extent. But even then it doesn't make any sense that if 2 shells enter the ship at the same angle, travel the exact same distance inside the hull before exiting, one of them does 2 times the damage of the other one, just because its trajectory happened to go through 2 "sections" rather than just 1...

In my opinion, it is fair.The more sections and compartments your shell passes the more damage it should do.

[mrk421]

2 minutes ago, mariouus said:

In my opinion, it is fair.The more sections and compartments your shell passes the more damage it should do.

Yes, except the compartments in the game sense are totally arbitrary. You would expect, that if 2 shells travel the same distance inside the ship, they'd pass roughly the same number of compartments (IRL), if their trajectories are similar and close to each other, no?

If 2 shells are let's say 2 m apart, and one of them stays completely withing 1 of these arbitrary zones, while the other travels mostly through 1 zone, but also barely clips another one and as a result does double the damage of the first shell, that's BS.

[mariouus]

1 hour ago, mrk421 said:

Yes, except the compartments in the game sense are totally arbitrary. You would expect, that if 2 shells travel the same distance inside the ship, they'd pass roughly the same number of compartments (IRL), if their trajectories are similar and close to each other, no?

If 2 shells are let's say 2 m apart, and one of them stays completely withing 1 of these arbitrary zones, while the other travels mostly through 1 zone, but also barely clips another one and as a result does double the damage of the first shell, that's BS.

If it pentrates the watertight bulkheads, ships survivability is compromised. Unlike beam-to-beam pentration, where survivability is reduced in single section, lenghtwise pentration damages several bulkheads, so it should make more damage. In game compartments are few, but compartments are sub-divided by transverse bulkheads, so pening it would do.

 

For example, if you pen bow beam-to-beam, you will have flooding in bow section. If you pen 1.m of bow section at an angle and also transverse bulkhead and 1.m of mid-section you would be having a flooding in both bow and mid-section. 

[mrk421]

4 minutes ago, mariouus said:

If it pentrates the watertight bulkheads, ships survivability is compromised. Unlike beam-to-beam pentration, where survivability is reduced in single section, lenghtwise pentration damages several bulkheads, so it should make more damage. In game compartments are few, but compartments are sub-divided by transverse bulkheads, so pening it would do.

 

For example, if you pen bow beam-to-beam, you will have flooding in bow section. If you pen 1.m of bow section at an angle and also transverse bulkhead and 1.m of mid-section you would be having a flooding in both bow and mid-section. 

OMG are you really that thick-skulled?

 

WG have not implemented so detailed damage models what you describe. For the purposes of damage received, the ships are presented quite simplistically and the only reason there are different damage zones in the first place is to prevent situations where you could sink a ship by shooting only at the superstructure or bow or any other single (often quite unimportant in combat effectiveness or survivability wise) region of the ship. That's all. What you're describing, while true IRL, does not exist in this game. They didn't think of "if shell passes several transverse compartments, it causes more damage than one that passes straight from beam to beam". NO, it's there purely for the purpose of forcing players to spread the damage around the ship and try to aim more for areas where in real life, most critical parts of the ships would be. In that sense, these multiple damage rolls are BS and just an unwanted artifact of their damage model. That's all.

[Blixies]

9 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Iirc the double pens were the original problem to begin with and the (artificial) limiting of normal pen damage was meant as a bypass to reduce the amount of single salvo damage many DD drivers were complaining about.

 

So these damage spikes were fixed by this AP damage change, but obviously the old bug should still be there.

Yep, makes perfect sense. They only capped the max damage per penetration instance.

The hit mechanics themselves remained the same.

 

By a single shell hit you can still get:

• penetration (capped at 10% dmg)
• over-penetration (deals 10% dmg)
• double over-penetration (deals 20% dmg)
• full penetration and an over-penetration (capped at 20% dmg)

 

The world is your oyster when you hit a BB shell on a turning destroyer.

[Blixies]

1 hour ago, mariouus said:

In my opinion, it is fair.The more sections and compartments your shell passes the more damage it should do.

I see you are a man of culture:

Spoiler

I play a lot of BBs too, but that doesn't qualify you to use the hysterical accuracy card when it suits you.

 

[mariouus]

25 minutes ago, mrk421 said:

OMG are you really that thick-skulled?

 

WG have not implemented so detailed damage models what you describe. For the purposes of damage received, the ships are presented quite simplistically and the only reason there are different damage zones in the first place is to prevent situations where you could sink a ship by shooting only at the superstructure or bow or any other single (often quite unimportant in combat effectiveness or survivability wise) region of the ship. That's all. What you're describing, while true IRL, does not exist in this game. They didn't think of "if shell passes several transverse compartments, it causes more damage than one that passes straight from beam to beam". NO, it's there purely for the purpose of forcing players to spread the damage around the ship and try to aim more for areas where in real life, most critical parts of the ships would be. In that sense, these multiple damage rolls are BS and just an unwanted artifact of their damage model. That's all.

It does at the moment. You can cause double overpentration (or overpenetration on top of penetration damage or occasionaly on citadel hit, given not on a DD anymore) by overpenetrating several sections lenghtwise. Just like you can sink any ship by only stacking single overpenetrations on top of eatchother.

 

3 minutes ago, Blixies said:

I play a lot of BBs too, but that doesn't qualify you to use the hysterical accuracy card when it suits you.

I play BBs and CA/CL in almost equal ratio, infact alot more in cruisers in past two years. So blaming me of being a "bad" BB player is moronic. Reciving double heavy damage on single hit is more of a Cruiser thing this days. Sure,DDs can take multible overpenetration damage. CA/CL could take multible overpen+pen damage on a single hit.

 

Fact is, DD players had their choise. They tested it, applaued it. Now after getting one, I would say sizeble buff, giving them another would be wrong. Specially if it would still be kept on all other classes. And I personally think they should keep it.

[Blixies]

2 minutes ago, mariouus said:

I play BBs and CA/CL in almost equal ratio, infact alot more in cruisers in past two years. So blaming me of being a "bad" BB player is moronic. Reciving double heavy damage on single hit is more of a Cruiser thing this days. Sure,DDs can take multible overpenetration damage. CA/CL could take multible overpen+pen damage on a single hit.

 

Fact is, DD players had their choise. They tested it, applaued it. Now after getting one, I would say sizeble buff, giving them another would be wrong. Specially if it would still be kept on all other classes. And I personally think they should keep it.

You don't play DDs though... coincidence? 

I see you just hate the idea of having to use the intended ammunition type, I get it bro.

[mrk421]

3 minutes ago, mariouus said:

It does at the moment. You can cause double overpentration (or overpenetration on top of penetration damage or occasionaly on citadel hit, given not on a DD anymore) by overpenetrating several sections lenghtwise. /---/

I see you still refuse to get the point. OK then. Good evening!

[mariouus]

7 minutes ago, Blixies said:

You don't play DDs though... coincidence? 

I see you just hate the idea of having to use the intended ammunition type, I get it bro.

And you came do that conclusion based on what? 

 

6 minutes ago, mrk421 said:

I see you still refuse to get the point. OK then. Good evening!

And that point was?

[MrConway]

On 11/25/2018 at 6:24 PM, Reaper_JackGBR said:

 

 

A picture speaks a thousand words as they say. 

Playing Republique.

When I hit the Z-52 I got two overpen ribbons and one penetration ribbon, so either one of two things happened: 

 

One; I did full dmg and penetrated when that shouldn't be possible anymore (but I don't think this likely as that should give me 7,685, not 7,250 damage with 2 overpens + pen )

Two;  I got the bug where one shell 'penetrates' multiple times, in which case the actual pen was a module hit and did zero damage, meaning that two overpens did the damage value of five overpens, which is pretty fudged. 

 

Either way, Wargaming, fix this. 

 

We've reported it and are investigating, we'll let you know when we know what the outcome is.

 

On 11/25/2018 at 6:47 PM, El2aZeR said:

 

Actually it's not. MrConway confirmed as much at the beginning of this year replying to @wilkatis_LV.

 

 

 

True, but the newly introduced AP vs DD mechanics should have removed this, so it is most likely now a bug :)

 

But we are still investigating.

 

20 hours ago, Reaper_JackGBR said:

I'm moderately amused that there is now a news article stating 'Were the AP changes too complicated?' 

No Wargaming, they clearly were not complicated enough. I think the evidence stacked up here proves that. And again @MrConway @Tuccy etc. can we get some official answers here? We've already established that some staff are saying feature and some saying bug, and even if this is a 'feature'; doesn't that basically defeat the entire point of the AP rework to begin with?

 

We're looking into it, as far as I am aware this was not supposed to be possible anymore following the recent AP vs. DD changes.

[Pamwachete]

So to test cv rework it wants me to dowload 22gb again? is this correct?

 

[Aotearas]

40 minutes ago, 7heBlackPearl said:

So to test cv rework it wants me to dowload 22gb again? is this correct?

 

Wrong topic buddy. You want to go here:

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/107488-cv-rework-beta-test-feedback-thread/

[ApesTogetherStronK]

4 hours ago, MrConway said:

 

We've reported it and are investigating, we'll let you know when we know what the outcome is.

 

 

True, but the newly introduced AP vs DD mechanics should have removed this, so it is most likely now a bug :)

 

But we are still investigating.

 

 

We're looking into it, as far as I am aware this was not supposed to be possible anymore following the recent AP vs. DD changes.

Good, appreciate it. 

[mrk421]

4 hours ago, MrConway said:

 

(1) We've reported it and are investigating, we'll let you know when we know what the outcome is.

 

 

(2) True, but the newly introduced AP vs DD mechanics should have removed this, so it is most likely now a bug :)

 

But we are still investigating.

 

 

We're looking into it, as far as I am aware this was not supposed to be possible anymore following the recent AP vs. DD changes.

(1) Right... Forgive me for being skeptical, but I think we know what the outcome will be.

(2) By "remove this" do you mean disable it on DDs or remove the effect from the game altogether? As has been reported in this thread, all classes are susceptible to receiving excessive damage from a single shell.

[DFens_666]

4 hours ago, MrConway said:

True, but the newly introduced AP vs DD mechanics should have removed this, so it is most likely now a bug :)

 

But we are still investigating

 

Im wondering: You guys do know (i think you know - not sure about the others at WG ) that this happens to Cruisers and BBs aswell? Especially the first ones are getting pretty hardly punished by receiving like 120-133% damage from one BB shell. Or even 2 overpens dealing like 50% damage compared to the normal 20% (just 2 days ago 2 overpens with my Nelson on an Algerie got me ~4,7k damage - he died, so could have been even more)

[ApesTogetherStronK]

Speaking of the video from iChase regarding the AP changes; why on earth does the forum link go to some thing about Poland instead? The tinfoil hatter in me thinks it's to avoid le crapstorm....

Also @wilkatis_LV I appreciate you linking this thread to the actual discussion thread for said video. 

[MrConway]

 

17 hours ago, mrk421 said:

(1) Right... Forgive me for being skeptical, but I think we know what the outcome will be.

(2) By "remove this" do you mean disable it on DDs or remove the effect from the game altogether? As has been reported in this thread, all classes are susceptible to receiving excessive damage from a single shell.

 

Specifically for DDs this should no longer be happening.

[DFens_666]

2 hours ago, MrConway said:

 

 

Specifically for DDs this should no longer be happening.

 

Did you guys know that it happens when you are turning?

The last time it happened to me when it was very obvious (Yamato shell on Salem for 17250 damage), i was slowing down and rudder hard left when it happened, so i was maybe 1/2 or 1/4 speed at the time of the hit.