BB AP on DD's not working as intended

[ApesTogetherStronK]

 

 

A picture speaks a thousand words as they say. 

Playing Republique.

When I hit the Z-52 I got two overpen ribbons and one penetration ribbon, so either one of two things happened: 

 

One; I did full dmg and penetrated when that shouldn't be possible anymore (but I don't think this likely as that should give me 7,685, not 7,250 damage with 2 overpens + pen )

Two;  I got the bug where one shell 'penetrates' multiple times, in which case the actual pen was a module hit and did zero damage, meaning that two overpens did the damage value of five overpens, which is pretty fudged. 

 

Either way, Wargaming, fix this. 

[Aotearas]

@MrConway, @Tuccy, @Sub_Octavian, @Crysantos ... Overconfidence™?

 

Update straight from a disgruntled Discord server: @Reaper_JackGBR just hit a Daring, got the normal penetration ribbon but the correct 10%/overpenetration damage. So pretty sure the problem highlighted in the TO is indeed the double damage bug plus hit ribbons doing their usual thing.

[wilkatis_LV]

7 minutes ago, Reaper_JackGBR said:

I got the bug

It's a GAME MECHANIC not a bug. Ffs people, learn it already

 

 

That multi-hit thing is the most likely explanation. Didn't see it on PTS so hoped its gone, haven't played enough on live in the current patch to know.

 

If the multihit thing still exists WG has failed to fix the actual problem. Pens never were the part of the AP that did a ton of dmg to DDs bcuz of how rare they were, these multihits did it. But, of course, why would WG have listened to those few competent enough to recognize this when the vast majority of potatoes just yell about pens, aye?

[Exocet6951]

13 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

@MrConway, @Tuccy, @Sub_Octavian, @Crysantos ... Overconfidence™?

 

Not enough lootbox sales, we're still running on "My first deluxe economy servers 1.0"

It includes features like server/client desync, booting clients off the server, and mathematically impossible results like the one in the OP.

 

6 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

It's a GAME MECHANIC not a bug. Ffs people, learn it already

 

 

That multi-hit thing is the most likely explanation. Didn't see it on PTS so hoped its gone, haven't played enough on live in the current patch to know.

 

If the multihit thing still exists WG has failed to fix the actual problem. Pens never were the part of the AP that did a ton of dmg to DDs bcuz of how rare they were, these multihits did it. But, of course, why would WG have listened to those few competent enough to recognize this when the vast majority of potatoes just yell about pens, aye?

 

"It's not a bug, it's a feature" -Bethesda reasoning


And yes, super coincidence where every large amount of damage that registered as a regular pen did a number that exactly corresponds to a multiple of 3.

Every time.

wow !

What are the odds?

 

[ForlornSailor]

waaaaaait. Let me get this straight. For years, we bring up the bug, that one shell does damage twice - one of them a pen - then WG thinks "hey, these guys complain about penetrations, lets remove them, and call it a fix" and now you tell me - the innital bug isnt even fixed in the first place?

I cant. I just cant. Im leaving now.

[Aotearas]

3 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

It's a GAME MECHANIC not a bug. Ffs people, learn it already

It's a bug when a single shell applies more than one instance of damage, which is what this is about so you can stick the rest of your uncalled for rant where AP doesn't pen.

[wilkatis_LV]

6 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

mathematically impossible results

20 minutes ago, Reaper_JackGBR said:

7,685, not 7,250 damage

 

it would be impossible if the target would have been below the one he got. But since he got less than calculated - saturation can cut it short.

 

Basically if modules has 1.8k hp and you hit a pen which should do 4k -> that's 2k on the ship + 2k on the moudule, but since there is only 1.8 you get a sum of 3.8

 

Perfectly plausible

[ApesTogetherStronK]

Just now, wilkatis_LV said:

 

it would be impossible if the target would have been below the one he got. But since he got less than calculated - saturation can cut it short.

 

Basically if modules has 1.8k hp and you hit a pen which should do 4k -> that's 2k on the ship + 2k on the moudule, but since there is only 1.8 you get a sum of 3.8

 

Perfectly plausible

Wasn't aware of that, I did not destroy or incapacitate any modules however. I'll get the replay up in a bit so you guys can see the shot in question. 

Either way,  still broken. 

[El2aZeR]

3 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

It's a bug when a single shell applies more than one instance of damage, which is what this is about so you can stick the rest of your uncalled for rant where AP doesn't pen.

 

Actually it's not. MrConway confirmed as much at the beginning of this year replying to @wilkatis_LV.

 

 

[ForlornSailor]

4 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

It's a bug when a single shell applies more than one instance of damage, which is what this is about so you can stick the rest of your uncalled for rant where AP doesn't pen.

 

Im pretty sure wilkatis was beeing sarcastic. Actually, someone from WG called this mechanic a feature and not a bug, I do remember this aswell. [edit: thx @El2aZeR thats what I was talking about] Buttomline: they didnt understood what was reported to them over and over again. They really though - people have a problem with DDs getting too much damage from BBs I guess. Well, some crybabys actually whined about that. Guess its time to join the whine army so that I get my citadell removed from RN CLs.

[wilkatis_LV]

3 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

It's a bug when a single shell applies more than one instance of damage, which is what this is about so you can stick the rest of your uncalled for rant where AP doesn't pen.

No, it has even been confirmed by MrConway as a game mechanic.

 

Here:

 

Especially note the last comment. It's not a bug.

[Aotearas]

7 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

it would be impossible if the target would have been below the one he got. But since he got less than calculated - saturation can cut it short.

 

Basically if modules has 1.8k hp and you hit a pen which should do 4k -> that's 2k on the ship + 2k on the moudule, but since there is only 1.8 you get a sum of 3.8

 

Perfectly plausible

Or we do the other math, divide the total damage of 7250 by the 1450 (ergo 10% of max damage on the Republique) and see it results in a perfectly neat factor of 5. No need to explain away the mismatch of a full penetration with a vague "saturation could've done it" and go for the much more likely explanation that those three shells somehow resulted in five instances of inflicting the 10% max AP damage according to the new large calibre AP interactions.

 

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Actually it's not. MrConway confirmed as much at the beginning of this year replying to @wilkatis_LV.

 

4 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Im pretty sure wilkatis was beeing sarcastic. Actually, someone from WG called this mechanic a feature and not a bug, I do remember this aswell. [edit: thx @El2aZeR thats what I was talking about] Buttomline: they didnt understood what was reported to them over and over again. They really though - people have a problem with DDs getting too much damage from BBs I guess. Well, some crybabys actually whined about that. Guess its time to join the whine army so that I get my citadell removed from RN CLs.

4 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

No, it has even been confirmed by MrConway as a game mechanic.

 

Here:

 

Especially note the last comment. It's not a bug.

 

A game mechanic that makes no sense, is counterproductive to the "fix" and would classify as a bug under any sane scrutiny.

 

Either way, the supposed fix in the patch doesn't work and that's the important take-away from this thread.

[wilkatis_LV]

4 minutes ago, Reaper_JackGBR said:

I did not destroy or incapacitate any modules however.

I meant module as in section of a ship. Was more or less explained how this works in the corresponding "How it Works" video

 

4 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Im pretty sure wilkatis was beeing sarcastic.

I only I was.

 

I've been campaigning for this idiotic mechanic to get removed for at least a year by now, and you can see how successful that has been. Everyone just dismisses it as a "bug that will get fixed at some point". Well, it's not!

 

5 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

Or we do the other math, divide the total damage of 7250 by the 1450 (ergo 10% of max damage on the Republique) and see it results in a perfectly neat factor of 5.

Or just this, yeah. I know @Exocet6951 said it always comes out as a multiple of 3, but in my experience it seems that x2 and x5 are far more common.

[Aotearas]

23 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

I've been campaigning for this idiotic mechanic to get removed for at least a year by now, and you can see how successful that has been. Everyone just dismisses it as a "bug that will get fixed at some point". Well, it's not!

Quite honestly, I wouldn't trust WG to call a bug a "feature" simply because they have no friggin' clue how it interacts with their own damage mechanics and gives them a PR pass to just ignore it since it's "working as intended" even when it quite evidently doesn't.

 

Anyhow, at this point this is just semantics; it obviously doesn't work as it should, whether that be intended or a bug and it needs to be fixed.

 

 

A late addendum: I also distinctly recall Sub_Octavian replying with "that's a bug" in my old single hit, double damage pen topic where my DD got hit by a single BB AP for twice the damage of a BB full pen back in the day. So that makes two conflicting statements by WG about the alleged "feature".

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/85023-overconfidence™/?do=findComment&comment=1984835

 

[DFens_666]

4 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

Or we do the other math, divide the total damage of 7250 by the 1450 (ergo 10% of max damage on the Republique) and see it results in a perfectly neat factor of 5. No need to explain away the mismatch of a full penetration with a vague "saturation could've done it" and go for the much more likely explanation that those three shells somehow resulted in five instances of inflicting the 10% max AP damage according to the new large calibre AP interactions. 

 

A Shell which deals Citadel + Penetration damage at the same time seems to actually more often saturate one area (atleast what ive seen from the times it happens to me) f.e. a Yamato shell dealing 17250 or so damage, which is not Cit + Pen, but Cit + Saturated pen.

 

At this point (i mentioned it before) i think its not even some weird multi damage pens, i somehow feel its shells not "registering". They hit the target, but they dont show up in the statistics. THats why it somehow seems impossible to recreate in a training room. Must be some server problem maybe?

Maybe OP did hit 5 shells, but game says it was only 3

[Loran_Battle]

You know the interesting thing about this "feature" is that apparently shells can overpen (i.e. go through a target) AND explode twice! I wonder if the US military wants to talk to WG about this magical shell they have developed .

 

Anyways, seems what I said when they announced they were reworking the AP mechanics has happened: I was really hoping they would stop the 1 shell does 2xpen+overpen damage over everything else. Remember when WG removed citadels of destroyers because a single citadel did too much damage to a destroyers? Oh yeah, but we will keep the 2x pen + overpen damage from a single shell as a feature... Sigh.

[Aotearas]

1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

 

A Shell which deals Citadel + Penetration damage at the same time seems to actually more often saturate one area (atleast what ive seen from the times it happens to me) f.e. a Yamato shell dealing 17250 or so damage, which is not Cit + Pen, but Cit + Saturated pen.

 

At this point (i mentioned it before) i think its not even some weird multi damage pens, i somehow feel its shells not "registering". They hit the target, but they dont show up in the statistics. THats why it somehow seems impossible to recreate in a training room. Must be some server problem maybe?

Maybe OP did hit 5 shells, but game says it was only 3

 

Still think the other explanation is more likely, simply because the math adds up without going into the nebulous saturation guessworkings. Also pretty sure it wasn't a case of just hitting more shells than hit ribbons displayed, but that should be relatively easy to find out once @Reaper_JackGBR posts the link to the replay and we can see where the other shells went (should be easy to count with Repulique only having 8 shells to hit with).

[El2aZeR]

3 minutes ago, Loran_Battle said:

You know the interesting thing about this "feature" is that apparently shells can overpen (i.e. go through a target) AND explode twice! I wonder if the US military wants to talk to WG about this magical shell they have developed

 

Is standard issue glorious stalinium shell comrade. Given to every nation as super sekrit gimmick.

[ApesTogetherStronK]

https://replayswows.com/replay/35983#stats

 

Shot is at 5:32 into the actual game

[wilkatis_LV]

26 minutes ago, Reaper_JackGBR said:

https://replayswows.com/replay/35983#stats

 

Shot is at 5:32 into the actual game

Well, since the dmg limit on pens does seem to work I just have to assume that's a classical multihit situation. God f-ing damnit WG

 

Either one overpen hit 3 times or both hit twice. Either way the result is clear

[mrk421]

Does anyone know, if this "single shell does damage multiple times" is only a "thing" with AP shells, or can it happen to HE as well?

[DFens_666]

Ye, only 3 shells hit him, i think i found the one causing the penetration

 

Spoiler

 

The penetration ribbon pops up slightly before the overpen ribbons, while the 2 next to the hit will be the ones overpenning him.

Sadly, the damage number pops up right away so you couldnt tell if a shell is at fault or all 3...

 

10 minutes ago, mrk421 said:

Does anyone know, if this "single shell does damage multiple times" is only a "thing" with AP shells, or can it happen to HE as well?

Never seen it with HE. I think since HE cant hit multiple sections of one ship, it shouldnt work?

[wilkatis_LV]

48 minutes ago, mrk421 said:

Does anyone know, if this "single shell does damage multiple times" is only a "thing" with AP shells, or can it happen to HE as well?

AP afaik.

HE explodes on impact, so technically it can never reach any 2nd compartment to hit

[DFens_666]

Ok guys, i think i got the bug.

Ive expected this since loooong ago, but i wasnt sure how to get it. (well if i would have taken a human player in the training room, i could have reproduced it ~~)

 

Its when the ship is turning! I remember everytime i get weird damage bugs, i was turning. And i think the rudder must be on max so that i gets bugged.

I went to training room with 12 DDs and let them drive around but not armed. The problem is, they dont fully turn unless they have to evade an island, so i got it 2 times. If you shoot not moving bots, you will NEVER get the bug.

Here screens

 

Spoiler

 

Both times, i got more overpen damage than i should have gotten. 8*1270 = 10160 but i got 9*1270 damage. Respectively 9*1270 = 11430 while it was 10*1270 = 12700.

So in @Reaper_JackGBR example, he did get infact 5 overpens from 3 shells.

[wilkatis_LV]

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

Ok guys, i think i got the bug.

Ive expected this since loooong ago, but i wasnt sure how to get it. (well if i would have taken a human player in the training room, i could have reproduced it ~~)

 

Its when the ship is turning! I remember everytime i get weird damage bugs, i was turning. And i think the rudder must be on max so that i gets bugged.

I went to training room with 12 DDs and let them drive around but not armed. The problem is, they dont fully turn unless they have to evade an island, so i got it 2 times. If you shoot not moving bots, you will NEVER get the bug.

Here screens

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Both times, i got more overpen damage than i should have gotten. 8*1270 = 10160 but i got 9*1270 damage. Respectively 9*1270 = 11430 while it was 10*1270 = 12700.

So in @Reaper_JackGBR example, he did get infact 5 overpens from 3 shells.

Tested in a PvP game, can confirm