Wg, isn't cossack a bit too much?

[MRGTB]

10 hours ago, Flavio1997 said:

How can that idiotic concealment coupled with good agility don't help noobs?

Keep in mind that great concealment and long torp range won't always work for you stuck in 90% of T10 matches with Radars being a common thing, plus other ways to spot you when other DD's hit the cap at same time with equally good concealment and spot you for others. My point being, it doesn't always work having it. There are many ways in which you can still end up spotted.

 

Also, the main thing about the ship is it's better guns with less torps. The minute you fire the guns, yep your cover is blown. The RN smoke screens last what, about 40 seconds compared to other nations DD's that lasts far longer. So you have much shorter time being covered by a smoke screen once spotted, nor to fire the guns in one for long being hidden.

[remenberMYname]

goood advertisment. i wanna cossack :DDD

[RAMJB]

15 hours ago, Flavio1997 said:

 

How can that idiotic concealment coupled with good agility don't help noobs?

 

 

Because it has 8 guns so he's supposed to fire them.

Yes, that's what I got from a Cossack who was firing a full health Conqueror in the open from 7km range, as an answer to my question about what on earth he was doing, not even  20 minutes ago.

 

That the ship is broken as all shits doesn't mean the average braindead who plays this game doesn't find creative ways to make it utterly suck.

[Ysterpyp]

13 hours ago, kfa said:

Nothing to worry about here , its just a sofa advertisement 

[tajj7]

If it was performing statistically poorly that would confirm it needed buffs, two fairly minor buffs are not going to turn a poorly ship into something that is OP. 

 

I doubt most players even noticed the buffs.

 

Turret traverse is a QOL buff that is not going to have huge performance impact, and the torp reload helps but it's still firing just 4 torps each time in a meta of hydro/radars etc.  I think also calling it a torp boat when it has FOUR torpedoes is just plain stupid. 

 

Also ships aren't balanced around the top 1%, things that you might think have a massive impact will barely have an impact at all for most players. 

 

Giant stretch IMO to call it OP, because the previous version would basically have to have been close to OP, which it very clearly was not. 

[stinkmorchel]

the point of having that turret buff is actually that you can use the 2 points for Expert Marksman in something different.

[Shaka_D]

Cossack is quite squishy, her HP vaporises fast from when hit even from tier 6 ships. Farragut hit me with 2 salvos last night and left me on on almost half hp. Is this even possible. Cossack needs to stay as is.

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

Playerbase gets a T8 premium almost for free, and you complain because you think it is too good?! 

 

Guess some people can't be satisfied. 

[tajj7]

I also note from the thread about 'Le terrible' that the Cossack not only had the 2nd worst WR out of all tier 8 DDs for everyone, but was 3rd worst for WR for the top 5% of players, which meant the ship wasn't even good in skilled players hands (some 5% lower than Lightning and 7% worse off then Kidd) so clearly was in need of a buff and again makes the relatively small buff suddenly turning it OP claim look a stretch.

 

 

[Beaker71]

Only played one game so far,  so hardly much of a comparison. - but it did seem to take more damage than the lightning (using the same captain). Looks a bit longer, so maybe an easier target - i dunno.

[ApesTogetherStronK]

10 hours ago, tajj7 said:

I also note from the thread about 'Le terrible' that the Cossack not only had the 2nd worst WR out of all tier 8 DDs for everyone, but was 3rd worst for WR for the top 5% of players, which meant the ship wasn't even good in skilled players hands (some 5% lower than Lightning and 7% worse off then Kidd) so clearly was in need of a buff and again makes the relatively small buff suddenly turning it OP claim look a stretch.

 

 

And this is why stats should not be trusted when it comes to balancing. She is utterly monstrous, she feels like a tier 9 ship rather than a tier 8; her stats will be lower due to two things; 

- she was in the shop and at the end of a mission chain, the people who bought her to save time immediately are less likely to be those good players

- she is a DD killer first and foremost, her avg. dmg will be lower, but each point is more valuable. 

 

WR is a tricky stat to judge by, there isn't enough data on it yet really, especially as she is still mostly stuck in radar heavy tier ten games, and of late more and more games simply are not winnable no matter how well you play. 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

On 11/25/2018 at 9:42 AM, Flavio1997 said:

So after all this i ask you again: isn't that ship a bit too much? it has too much going for it. Give it his old torp reload time, now is too good of a spotter, cap contester, torp AND gunboat.

What do you think?

 

T8 MM and having to play with all those T10 potatoes needs a stronk ship to keep it at least halfway fun... Just imagine you wouldn't have those "OMG this ship is so effing OP" moments once in a while when getting lucky and ending in a T8 match ~10% of the time... having to endure the 90% T10 battles and the special players one meets there would just be... unbearable... ^^

[Verblonde]

On 11/26/2018 at 5:27 PM, Reaper_JackGBR said:

WR is a tricky stat to judge by, there isn't enough data on it yet really, especially as she is still mostly stuck in radar heavy tier ten games,

This reminds me: LWM's review specifically said Cossack suffered disproportionately when up-tiered; if that is correct, given the current MM, it might also have impacted the WR - along with the other factors others have mentioned?

[RAMJB]

2 hours ago, Verblonde said:

This reminds me: LWM's review specifically said Cossack suffered disproportionately when up-tiered; if that is correct, given the current MM, it might also have impacted the WR - along with the other factors others have mentioned?

That one part of her review made me raise an eyebrow. Cossack is, in essence, a bettler handling lightning with one turret more and one torpedo launcher less (but with better torpedoes).

So, If she makes the argument that Cossack "suffers" when up-tiered, then Lightning should be a nightmare, yet by now I think nobody will disagree that Lightning is probably the best silver T8 DD to get into a T10 battle with.

Also LWM's constant reference to the "awful" british destroyer smokes (which IMHO are just the best in the game right now when it comes down to self-use -american smokes are better to cover teammates-) makes me think that she just didn't mesh with the ship at all and didn't get it's strenghts right for the review. British destroyer smoke is one of the highlights and strenghts of the line, yet she mentions them ,all the time, as a huge drawback. She just got the ship all wrong in her review, I'm afraid.

Can happen to anyone, it's not a shot at her, her reviews are top notch but that doesn't mean she's going to nail every single one of them.

 

At any rate whatever her first thoughts were, 8 guns with 5.5km concealment, speed booster, british engine acceleration and that maneouverability are just too much.

[Wilkinson87]

Hello guys.

Yesterday I gived a go to the cossack, trying out how the ship works with the buff.....Its a bit too strong.....done couple of games and rekt many dds...with flags and camo this was the final result..

Btw this amount was a kiev, z52, kagero, and a portion from a hindenburg.

[Flavio1997]

8 hours ago, RAMJB said:

That one part of her review made me raise an eyebrow. Cossack is, in essence, a bettler handling lightning with one turret more and one torpedo launcher less (but with better torpedoes).

So, If she makes the argument that Cossack "suffers" when up-tiered, then Lightning should be a nightmare, yet by now I think nobody will disagree that Lightning is probably the best silver T8 DD to get into a T10 battle with.

Also LWM's constant reference to the "awful" british destroyer smokes (which IMHO are just the best in the game right now when it comes down to self-use -american smokes are better to cover teammates-) makes me think that she just didn't mesh with the ship at all and didn't get it's strenghts right for the review. British destroyer smoke is one of the highlights and strenghts of the line, yet she mentions them ,all the time, as a huge drawback. She just got the ship all wrong in her review, I'm afraid.

Can happen to anyone, it's not a shot at her, her reviews are top notch but that doesn't mean she's going to nail every single one of them.

 

At any rate whatever her first thoughts were, 8 guns with 5.5km concealment, speed booster, british engine acceleration and that maneouverability are just too much.

this, also to me the smoke is the best dd smoke of the game for egoistic use and i agree on the Americans one too are the best, but for "team oriented". Also on the torps, yeas you have just one torp launcher, but the reload is insanely fast. if you hit and flood one enemy bb, you can reload fire again and hit him, and he will flood for 20 secs!! And if he doesn't have the premium dcp he is dead....this is insane.

I'm happy that at least someone is on my same bearings

[radius77]

5,5km concealment is a blessing or a trap these days

if you believe too much in it you can end up face to face with Harugumo or Worcester

and Cossack ... well it doesn't have torps (almost) so calling she's any kind OP DD is just a stupid headline

[Flavio1997]

28 minutes ago, radius77 said:

5,5km concealment is a blessing or a trap these days

if you believe too much in it you can end up face to face with Harugumo or Worcester

and Cossack ... well it doesn't have torps (almost) so calling she's any kind OP DD is just a stupid headline

 

you get right that you are talking about tier 10 ships, and that those are your real hard counters? Worcester was made to nuke dds, and harogumo if you get spotted, with a 700 meters concealment advantage, you deserve to get nuked

[JaiFoh]

On 11/25/2018 at 12:30 PM, T0byJug said:

Changes to Cossack were probably needed...  The issue here is WG heavy handed buffs............   Why cant they just do it slowly... Buff the turrets.. if she still struggles then do the Torps.. there was no need to do both at same time

Exact opposite of what they did to the Yue Yang, too heavy handed with the nerfs. 

Almost at the Cossack but in the hands of an above average player the Cossack is insane, i only engage it in the Jutland if i know if i have a unfair fight in advantage to me.

[Procrastes]

10 hours ago, RAMJB said:

Also LWM's constant reference to the "awful" british destroyer smokes (which IMHO are just the best in the game right now when it comes down to self-use -american smokes are better to cover teammates-)

I am still trying to get the hang of that special British destroyer smoke. What usually happens, is that I trigger the smoke and then sail away from it, whereafter I find myself slowly reversing back into my little smoke cloud, getting into cover just as it dissipates (cue the sound of incoming HE shells and the screams of burning crew members). This is not due to any fallacy with the smoke itself, but rather - as it were - a lack of skill on my side. I shall simply have to practice more. Luckily, British destroyers are fun to drive around in! 

[Uglesett]

2 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

I am still trying to get the hang of that special British destroyer smoke. What usually happens, is that I trigger the smoke and then sail away from it, whereafter I find myself slowly reversing back into my little smoke cloud, getting into cover just as it dissipates.

If you're going to sit in the smoke, you have to start slowing down and maybe start turning a bit before you trigger it. Same applies to some extent to RN CLs as well.

 

Although with the DDs, you're often just as well off just using it as an escape tool, triggering smoke and turning away to screen yourself while you're G-ing TFO. I view firing from smoke with RN DDs as more of a situational thing. Not something you depend on for burning down BBs, but something you do if you can save yourself some damage while getting rid of an enemy DD that's spotted through other means or maybe if you have a shot at finishing off a low health cruiser.

[tajj7]

On 11/26/2018 at 10:27 PM, Reaper_JackGBR said:

And this is why stats should not be trusted when it comes to balancing. She is utterly monstrous, she feels like a tier 9 ship rather than a tier 8; her stats will be lower due to two things; 

- she was in the shop and at the end of a mission chain, the people who bought her to save time immediately are less likely to be those good players

- she is a DD killer first and foremost, her avg. dmg will be lower, but each point is more valuable. 

 

WR is a tricky stat to judge by, there isn't enough data on it yet really, especially as she is still mostly stuck in radar heavy tier ten games, and of late more and more games simply are not winnable no matter how well you play. 

 

Stats > feels. They are free from confirmation bias, perception bias etc. especially if you then have stats for different skill groups which then gives you a wholistic view of the ships performance. 

 

As I said the ship was not performing in TOP players hands which makes most your comment about the players who got it not relevant. Good players were not doing as well in it as other tier 8 DDs, this is a simple fact. Those other tier 8 DDs are also in the same meta (for example the Kidd, which is not that old to the game) and they are performing better in all hands and good hands. 

 

Quote

she was in the shop and at the end of a mission chain, the people who bought her to save time immediately are less likely to be those good players

The good player stats make this irrelevant. They were stats from the top 5%, so if average players and good players can't make the ship perform compared to its peers, then it's pretty obvious the ship is underpowered. 

 

Quote

she is a DD killer first and foremost, her avg. dmg will be lower, but each point is more valuable. 

 

Which would surely reflect in win rate, yet it does not. 

 

Quote

she is still mostly stuck in radar heavy tier ten games, and of late more and more games simply are not winnable no matter how well you play. 

 

This is no different to what the other DDs are having to perform in, but most are doing consistently better

 

Thus two fairly minor buffs are not going to turn an underperforming ship into an OP one.

 

There is literally no evidence to support your claims, just your personal opinion, which is subjective and potentially biased by your perspective. 

[Procrastes]

12 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

Although with the DDs, you're often just as well off just using it as an escape tool, triggering smoke and turning away to screen yourself while you're G-ing TFO.

Good advice! And yes, I've tried this. I find that I must learn to start turning away, and be a good way into the turn, before I trigger the smoke - or it will end up shielding me from my allies rather than from my enemies. Practice, practice...!

[Flavio1997]

22 hours ago, tajj7 said:

 

Stats > feels. They are free from confirmation bias, perception bias etc. especially if you then have stats for different skill groups which then gives you a wholistic view of the ships performance. 

 

As I said the ship was not performing in TOP players hands which makes most your comment about the players who got it not relevant. Good players were not doing as well in it as other tier 8 DDs, this is a simple fact. Those other tier 8 DDs are also in the same meta (for example the Kidd, which is not that old to the game) and they are performing better in all hands and good hands. 

 

The good player stats make this irrelevant. They were stats from the top 5%, so if average players and good players can't make the ship perform compared to its peers, then it's pretty obvious the ship is underpowered. 

 

 

yeap....but there is just a problem with that:

there is no single thing that ligning( the best silver by stats in the 5% category), that cossac doesn't do better:

same concealment, better firepower, agility 0,5 secs better rudder, 3.1 vs 2.6, better speed ( 5-6 knots). Torps i would say are equal, yes one fires a torp every 12he other every 16, but cossacks torps have better range ( the difference between firing them in and out of radar range), better damage and flooding capabilities. And the ability to reload in 60 secs mean that if you hit a bb twice with 2 consecutive salvos:

-if he has repmium dcp he will flood for 20 secs

- if he hasn't got premium dcp he is dead

 

i truly cannot wrap my head around the fact that those stats are so different