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karol66

Make Concealment Expert tier 1 or 2 skill

Make Concealment Expert tier 1 or 2 skill  

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  1. 1. Make Concealment Expert tier 1 or 2 skill

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    • No
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With current meta, >90% builds include this high price skill. Because of 4 point cost of Concealment Expert, the number of possible builds is poor. If we switch this skill with (example) Adrenaline Rush, we will get more diversity, the system will be more friendly for new players and captains but the bonus for veterans will still be here.

 

 

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If 90% of people jumped off the bridge... would you?

 

I mean there is a reason why its on Tier 4 and not lower.

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4 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

Alternatively, remove Concealment Expert entirely, tweak individual ship concealment values where needed and open up more diverse captain builds without any must have captain skills, no matter how cheap you can make them.

Is the correct answer

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1 minute ago, Aotearas said:

Alternatively, remove Concealment Expert entirely, tweak individual ship concealment values where needed and open up more diverse captain builds without any must have captain skills, no matter how cheap you can make them.

^^This! Not sure how many others are 'must haves' though (I mean, yes, you talk about LS on DD's obviously, but for 2 points it's not so significant) SI i think could still be optional - after all it's often a case of choosing WHEN to invest as much as WHICH skills to invest in (assuming were talking of grinding a captain, not a 19 ptr)

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16 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

Alternatively, remove Concealment Expert entirely, tweak individual ship concealment values where needed and open up more diverse captain builds without any must have captain skills, no matter how cheap you can make them.

Good idea, but WG makes money off captain training/re-training, both directly and indirectly, and if they remove the must have skills from the tree then that revenue stream takes a big hit.

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26 minutes ago, karol66 said:

With current meta, >90% builds include this high price skill. Because of 4 point cost of Concealment Expert, the number of possible builds is poor. If we switch this skill with (example) Adrenaline Rush, we will get more diversity, the system will be more friendly for new players and captains but the bonus for veterans will still be here.

 

 

Yet another "let's skip learning how to play this game and learn the nessesery skills" thread. Next you will be wanting an auto win button. :Smile_hiding:

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1 hour ago, karol66 said:

With current meta, >90% builds include this high price skill. Because of 4 point cost of Concealment Expert, the number of possible builds is poor

lol

If anything 4 points is too cheap, and they should reintroduce 5 point skills for CE and fireprevention. It's too easy to make generic "jack of all trades" captains for bbs atm.

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1 hour ago, Srle_Vigilante said:

I mean there is a reason why its on Tier 4 and not lower.

 

Point sponge?

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16 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

lol

If anything 4 points is too cheap, and they should reintroduce 5 point skills for CE and fireprevention. It's too easy to make generic "jack of all trades" captains for bbs atm.

not sure i agree on Fire Prevention "needing" to go up to five points - sure, it'S good, but is it that good? I'd definitely bump IFHE along with CE though^^

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13 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

not sure i agree on Fire Prevention "needing" to go up to five points - sure, it'S good, but is it that good? I'd definitely bump IFHE along with CE though^^

I only gave two BB skills, because in the end, besides going back to 5 pointers, I'd also like different captain skill trees per shiptype.

 

Where indeed IFHE should be expensive. Where for example CE would be 5 points for a BB, but let's say 3 for a DD. But DDs would go 4 points for BFT & Torp reload.

Etc etc.

 

 

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Let's see how things work out when they change it to a flat bonus first, shall we?

 

That said, I don't think I'd mind if they took @Aotearas' suggestion to heart. I mean, with the exception of some BB builds, it's basically mandatory because concealment is so important. Might be better to just remove the skill and rework concealment values around not having it.

 

I think its biggest impact is on mid-tier DD play. For T7+, most people will have it anyway, so things are equal and it's basically just a captain point sink. For T2-4, most people will not have it, so with the exception of some seal clubbers things are fairly equal. But around T5-7 you'll have a mix of captains that do and do not have it, in which case it can make a pretty huge difference.

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Vor 1 Stunde, Aotearas sagte:

more diverse captain builds without any must have captain skills, no matter how cheap you can make them.

I don't know that it's possible to do that for any and all ships in the game. And I'm completely OK with ships like the IJN gunboats or Atlanta needing a fairly high number of must-have or nearly-must-have skills.

 

However, your basic idea is very intriguing, especially considering how much fun it is to play with different captain builds.

Free skill point redistribution week is still the only reason I want to do a Clan Battle. And it's an aspect of the game that automatically gets better every time because more premium ships and more maxed-out commanders accumulate.

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Vor 1 Stunde, Capra76 sagte:

if they remove the must have skills from the tree then that revenue stream takes a big hit.

To the contrary. The more different captain builds you can have that actually make sense, or more/less sense to different kinds of players, the more people will want to experiment with them.

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2 hours ago, Aotearas said:

Alternatively, remove Concealment Expert entirely, tweak individual ship concealment values where needed and open up more diverse captain builds without any must have captain skills, no matter how cheap you can make them.

I think this is a good idea.

 

2 hours ago, Aotearas said:

That would by extension also count for Last Stand for DDs (just give DDs the same measure of manouverability as with the skill by default) and possibly even for Superintendant (that one is a bit more subjective as there's good other alternatives for three captain points, however it's by far the most utilitarian choice for most classes with worthwhile consumables, making it a de facto must pick too). Same deal for Air Superiourity Expert for CVs (though that's probably being adressed in some fashion with the CV rework anyway).

LS, maybe yes. But SI... It's a little too much methinks.

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2 hours ago, Aotearas said:

Alternatively, remove Concealment Expert entirely, tweak individual ship concealment values where needed and open up more diverse captain builds without any must have captain skills, no matter how cheap you can make them.

 

That would by extension also count for Last Stand for DDs (just give DDs the same measure of manouverability as with the skill by default) and possibly even for Superintendant (that one is a bit more subjective as there's good other alternatives for three captain points, however it's by far the most utilitarian choice for most classes with worthwhile consumables, making it a de facto must pick too). Same deal for Air Superiourity Expert for CVs (though that's probably being adressed in some fashion with the CV rework anyway).

I fully support that initiative! In fact, I would go even one step further and do away with the (is it in slot 5?) Concealment system module as well. I mean, this module is such a no-brainer that it might as well be the only module available in that slot (with the debatable exception of some of the Unique modules for T10s). What I would do to compensate would be to increase the buff camos give to concealment. To at least 10 %, perhaps 12. Consequently, the prices of camos could be increased. OR perhaps you could have 2 tiers of camos: cheap ones that only provide say 5(6)% buff to concealment and more expensive ones that provide the full bonus, i.e. 10-12%. As a bonus that would make ships prettier to look at to boot :cap_like:

 

I also agree on LS. Alternatively, the LS commander skill could also be moved to a module - either a new one or as an effect of existing Steering gears and Rudder modules. Just a thought...

 

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2 hours ago, SeaWolf7 said:

Yet another "let's skip learning how to play this game and learn the nessesery skills" thread. Next you will be wanting an auto win button. :Smile_hiding:

Either I didn't fully understand you post, or:

image.png.c27039ee4bae7ef65ccdea6d2d786b04.png

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55 minutes ago, Nautical_Metaphor said:

To the contrary. The more different captain builds you can have that actually make sense, or more/less sense to different kinds of players, the more people will want to experiment with them.

Exactly. Right now some destroyers MUST use IFHE and all needs CE. Those 2 skills = 14 points. Many BB take CE+FirePrev = also 14 points.

If you see ship X, you can tell with 99% accuracy what build he uses. Where is room for diversity? CE is only common 4 points skill what everyone needs. If the cost of this skill will be reduced (or skill removed) we will see more POSSIBLE builds for all. Right now, there is no room for experiments.

 

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3 hours ago, Aotearas said:

Alternatively, remove Concealment Expert entirely, tweak individual ship concealment values where needed and open up more diverse captain builds without any must have captain skills, no matter how cheap you can make them.

 

That would by extension also count for Last Stand for DDs (just give DDs the same measure of manouverability as with the skill by default) and possibly even for Superintendant (that one is a bit more subjective as there's good other alternatives for three captain points, however it's by far the most utilitarian choice for most classes with worthwhile consumables, making it a de facto must pick too). Same deal for Air Superiourity Expert for CVs (though that's probably being adressed in some fashion with the CV rework anyway).

I agree with most, but SI indeed has too many good alternatives, imo. There's only very few ships where I'd count SI as a must have, which would be cases like Grozovoi or T9/10 cruisers. But other than that... I for example don't run SI on most German BBs, instead opting for BoS and a secondary build, while on DDs, I typically find it of equal value to BFT/TAE (based on what kind of DD it is) and DE (for gunboats), so it's fine. SE seems to me much more of a must have on DDs than SI for example. Incidently... SE is pretty much a crap skill for most others, which makes it qualify more than SI for getting removed, because you either need it or you don't and if you need it, it's almost a no-brainer.

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1 minute ago, Riselotte said:

I agree with most, but SI indeed has too many good alternatives, imo. There's only very few ships where I'd count SI as a must have, which would be cases like Grozovoi or T9/10 cruisers. But other than that... I for example don't run SI on most German BBs, instead opting for BoS and a secondary build, while on DDs, I typically find it of equal value to BFT/TAE (based on what kind of DD it is) and DE (for gunboats), so it's fine. SE seems to me much more of a must have on DDs than SI for example. Incidently... SE is pretty much a crap skill for most others, which makes it qualify more than SI for getting removed, because you either need it or you don't and if you need it, it's almost a no-brainer.

 

I would personally change SE into giving HP bonuses based on class and tier. So DDs get the usual 350 HP per tier, CL/CAs would get say 1000 per tier (almost but not quite one BB AP citadel), BBs would get say 2000 per tier and CVs get instead aircraft HP ... make that whole thing cost 4 captain skill points.

 

Would make the skill much more relevant for all classes and actually be a viable pick to improve survivability.

 

 

Just a rough idea obviously.

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5 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

 

I would personally change SE into giving HP bonuses based on class and tier. So DDs get the usual 350 HP per tier, CL/CAs would get say 1000 per tier (almost but not quite one BB AP citadel), BBs would get say 2000 per tier and CVs get instead aircraft HP ... make that whole thing cost 4 captain skill points.

 

Would make the skill much more relevant for all classes and actually be a viable pick to improve survivability.

 

 

Just a rough idea obviously.

It's roughly one BB AP citadel at T7-8 if you get citpenned by a Scharnhorst, I guess. For T4, adding 4,000 hp is half a citadel not even from a 305 mm BB. T10 gets 10k, which would equal a BB citpen from a Myogi, most BBs do more. Yamato I think is 14-15k per citadel.

 

Not that I would give it more hp, it already would be a retardedly powerfull skill, given that at high tiers you get stupid amounts of hp out of it (102k hp Conkek? 53k hp Minotaur? 50.8k hp Zao? That's 25% more hp and coupled with SI for extra repair party is an insane amount). If this skill was to come live, I'd argue it'd be better than FP and the 14th skill point on any cruiser after CE (and if CE gets gutted, it'd be the 10th).

 

Honestly, I don't see it as a good idea, because it basically extents the current situation, where SE is a very solid skill for DDs that often is a must have if you don't have special skill needs (IFHE?) to all classes. Makes it hardly better than the current situation of CE.

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37 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

 

I would personally change SE into giving HP bonuses based on class and tier. So DDs get the usual 350 HP per tier, CL/CAs would get say 1000 per tier (almost but not quite one BB AP citadel), BBs would get say 2000 per tier and CVs get instead aircraft HP ... make that whole thing cost 4 captain skill points.

 

Would make the skill much more relevant for all classes and actually be a viable pick to improve survivability.

 

 

Just a rough idea obviously.

 

Well, the idea makes kinda sense:

Currently we have skills, that are must have. And the rest is "nice to have" at best in my book. Is Vigilance a skill i need? No. Is it nice to have? Occasionally sure. Or speecing for more AA, mostly it doesnt benefit me at all, yet the other skills are even less beneficiary.

 

If we have more good skills, then you would atleast make a choice which way you want to go. Currently the options are too few to NOT pick certain skills.

Alltho id say, a 1k HP buff/tier for a Minotaur sounds definetely OP :Smile_trollface: Even with current 350 HP its something you could pick, instead of better AA f.e.

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Could we keep the discussion on CE?

 

Regarding the OP, after giving it some more thought I think making CE a 1-2 pt skill is actually a worse idea than keeping it at 4 points. Why? Because if it only cost 1-2 points, ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE (except those who don't have a clue about skills and just pick some at random) would pick it, at which point you might as well just make it a default like what happened with the old Situational Awareness skill. So why not just remove it to begin with...

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43 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

It's roughly one BB AP citadel at T7-8 if you get citpenned by a Scharnhorst, I guess. For T4, adding 4,000 hp is half a citadel not even from a 305 mm BB. T10 gets 10k, which would equal a BB citpen from a Myogi, most BBs do more. Yamato I think is 14-15k per citadel.

 

Not that I would give it more hp, it already would be a retardedly powerfull skill, given that at high tiers you get stupid amounts of hp out of it (102k hp Conkek? 53k hp Minotaur? 50.8k hp Zao? That's 25% more hp and coupled with SI for extra repair party is an insane amount). If this skill was to come live, I'd argue it'd be better than FP and the 14th skill point on any cruiser after CE (and if CE gets gutted, it'd be the 10th).

 

Honestly, I don't see it as a good idea, because it basically extents the current situation, where SE is a very solid skill for DDs that often is a must have if you don't have special skill needs (IFHE?) to all classes. Makes it hardly better than the current situation of CE.

 

18 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Well, the idea makes kinda sense:

Currently we have skills, that are must have. And the rest is "nice to have" at best in my book. Is Vigilance a skill i need? No. Is it nice to have? Occasionally sure. Or speecing for more AA, mostly it doesnt benefit me at all, yet the other skills are even less beneficiary.

 

If we have more good skills, then you would atleast make a choice which way you want to go. Currently the options are too few to NOT pick certain skills.

Alltho id say, a 1k HP buff/tier for a Minotaur sounds definetely OP :Smile_trollface: Even with current 350 HP its something you could pick, instead of better AA f.e.

 

Well, it's obviously just a rough idea to make the skill a valuable pick for all classes instead of just mandatory for DDs. Actual numbers and if it would be a straight up HP buff for everything is up to debate, other option could be to improve the amount of HP a DRP could heal and/or improving the amount of heavy/citadel damage a DRP could heal back for example.

 

 

15 minutes ago, mrk421 said:

Could we keep the discussion on CE?

 

The discussion is about making more captain builds viable. In that regard CE isn't the only skill that would need to be looked at so we're very much still on-topic I'd say.

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2 hours ago, Saiyko said:

I only gave two BB skills, because in the end, besides going back to 5 pointers, I'd also like different captain skill trees per shiptype.

 

Where indeed IFHE should be expensive. Where for example CE would be 5 points for a BB, but let's say 3 for a DD. But DDs would go 4 points for BFT & Torp reload.

Etc etc.

Not necessarily a bad idea, but how would you handle things like reassigning captains and premium ships? 

 

I mean, you'd basically have to rework captains so that once assigned to a ship of any given class they'd be locked to that class until respecced.

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