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__Helmut_Kohl__

Vanguard: lacking something to be good

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So I played a bit in the Vanguard, and it just isn't a good ship, because it is missing advantages for the trade-offs that it makes.

 

  • The small AP caliber (no overmatch) would be ok, if the gun angles where not so bad.
  • The bad gun angles would be ok, if it had the normal RN BB firechance.
  • The bad AP penetration would be ok, if it had better AP angles.
  • The better heal could make up for that, if it wasn't 32mm all around and didn't have to show broadside all day.

 

The ship has too many negative aspects overall (weak armor, high citadel, bad gun angles, low range, low penetration, slow shells).

 

It just feels that all you get in return is the better heal, which is already negated by having to show boradside all game.

 

It desperately needs better gun angles.

If it cannot have that, it needs something like RN BB fire chance or RN AP angles.

 

Currently it is just a turd armor ship with bad gun angles, that shoots weak AP and can't properly spam HE.

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while, from what I've seen of her, I'd agree with you that she'd need something to be truly good... why can't we leave her as a mediocre ship, just this once? Why does every premium have to be good? Just dont buy it... (or if you already did, caveat emptor)

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  • She is a sniper (for a BB), deadly accurate
  • She has an insanly short rudder shift to open and close your angling quickly

Yes, she cannot overmatch certain ships, but that is hardly a problem as french, german, british silver Tier VIII cannot do that either.

Her penetration power is similar to other Tier VIII 380mm guns.

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Just now, ColonelPete said:
  • Her penetration power is similar to other 380mm guns.

 

Yeah, maybe it is the fuse time, I don't know. 

 

But with BB broadsides at range, it leaves you hanging a lot. 

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14 minutes ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

 

Yeah, maybe it is the fuse time, I don't know. 

 

But with BB broadsides at range, it leaves you hanging a lot. 

I have big problems with Monarchs AP, which is slightly weaker. Vanguard performed well for me, which is probably because of that accuracy. But I am not fan of the short fuse times on such big shells either.

Btw Monarchs HE has 35% fire chance and Vanguards HE has 34%. No big difference.

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40 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Didn't the bad gun angles get at least partially offset by the good rudder shift?

 

For that you would have to keep moving all the time, and even then it doesn't always help. 

 

It is often better to stay at a certain position for crossfire or area denial. The gun angles make that harder than it should be. 

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It is better to keep such a big ship moving. Speeding up again takes too long.

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13 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

It is better to keep such a big ship moving. Speeding up again takes too long.

 

That is why it is a good idea to use propulsion mod on BBs and on cruisers like Stalingrad. 

 

It enables you to just stay in a good position. 

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2 hours ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

RN AP angles

that's a CL not BB thing

 

RN BB AP bounces at the same 60° as all other BBs AP does

 

2 hours ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

Yeah, maybe it is the fuse time, I don't know. 

This just means that she'd score more pens instead of overpens as the shell has a better chance of exploding before exiting the ship

 

1 hour ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

For that you would have to keep moving all the time

Moving in a BB? Pls :Smile_trollface:

 

Obviously keep the ship moving. Just do the same zig-zag as with any other BB

 

mjHvd0y.png

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9 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

that's a CL not BB thing

 

RN BB AP bounces at the same 60° as all other BBs AP does

 

Hood and Duke of York both have 67.5.

 

These are also the other recent RN premium BBs without "real" RN BB HE. 

 

Where do you think I got the idea? :Smile-_tongue:

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7 hours ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

 

Yeah, maybe it is the fuse time, I don't know. 

 

But with BB broadsides at range, it leaves you hanging a lot. 

 

 

According to LWM's pre-review Vanguard gets standard fuze timing, same as Warspite, amazing accuracy for BB guns, and similar penetration values as the Bismarck Twins. And the german 15'' is many things (inaccurate, inconsistent, infuriating come to mind), but one thing is not is slacking in penetration.

Given their turret turning speed, pen, and accuracy, I think those guns should give little to complain. Yeah, turret arcs seem bad, but you can compensate it by wiggling at the proper time given that it has a rudder shift time superior to many cruisers.

I don't see how, or why, does this ship need anything to compensate for something that already has in-built mechanisms to compensate for. 

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9 hours ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

The ship has too many negative aspects overall (weak armor, high citadel, bad gun angles, low range, low penetration, slow shells).

 

Sounds like a decent trade for

- high HP pool (for T8)

- fast reload + great accuracy

- incredible handling

- hilarious AA (though ofc this may change with the rework)

- RN BB standard heal with stupidly short cd

- decent stealth and speed

 

From what I've seen I'd say this is one of the more balanced ships that have come out in recent times. Ironic that she immediately gets characterized as weak. Have people gotten used to all the overpowered bull:etc_swear: WG tends to throw at us or what?

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AP on vanguard works for me and it has great dispersion its a cruiser killer, this ship is acctually what Roma was supposed to be (low detection, manouverable, fast turreted medium caliber bb) but somehow never became that, vanguard acctually HITS where you aim and doesnt overpen everything when you close in unlike Roma whitch is basically usless since it either scatters all over the place if you fire at range or when you close in to acctually hit anything overpens all day

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13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Sounds like a decent trade for

- high HP pool (for T8)

- fast reload + great accuracy

- incredible handling

- hilarious AA (though ofc this may change with the rework)

- RN BB heal with stupidly short cd

- decent stealth and speed

 

From what I've seen I'd say this is one of the more balanced ships that have come out in recent times. Ironic that she immediately gets characterized as weak. Have people gotten used to all the overpowered bull:etc_swear: WG tends to throw at us or what?

Exactly that. I think people have this knee-jerk reaction to new premiums following Belfast, and the like. Don't forget that in a computer game, nothing is be balanced: It is either over-powered or under-powered, no middle ground. So because this ship isn't a simple upgrade for money over Monarch or other T8's, it must be under-powered. Plus, everything must have a gimmick these days, so that has left people wondering (probably the same folks that complained about gimmicky RN cruisers though)

Personally I quite like the look of her, even if she is tough to play. I checked the penetration curves, and Vanguard has identical pen to Bismarck and better penetration than Monarch at all ranges. She loses out to French 15" guns though. In a strange way, Vanguard could be a template for any split BB line that WG might introduce for the British: high agility, not so tanky, accurate, punishing, AP-centric guns and large size.

Oh, and Vanguard is a good looking ship too, if that helps :Smile-_tongue:

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I like her, then again i like anything British, shes like a higher tier Warspite from back in the day.

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Having watched quite a few streams where various iterations were played I'm not buying it, just doesn't appeal.

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3 hours ago, RAMJB said:

According to LWM's pre-review Vanguard gets standard fuze timing, same as Warspite, amazing accuracy for BB guns, and similar penetration values as the Bismarck Twins. And the german 15'' is many things (inaccurate, inconsistent, infuriating come to mind), but one thing is not is slacking in penetration.

 

Wowsft.com has it with 0.015, not standard 0.033.

 

And I am not the only one. Flamu says he struggles a lot as well with the AP against BBs. 

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2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

- incredible handling

 

People seem to believe this handles like a cruiser. In fact, you don't notice a big difference to ships like Alabama. 

 

Maybe because of the turning circle, I don't know. 

 

Quote

- hilarious AA (though ofc this may change with the rework)

 

Wouldn't call it hilarious, if you compare it to NC, Bama, Massachusetts, Kii.

 

And if you are just saying that they all have "hilarious AA", I wonder how many planes it can shoot down before you strike it with your Midway... 

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You can't expect Warspite gun on a tier 8 to works properly. It just can't. Warspite guns only works because they overmatch everything in the 5-7 MM spread. But their penetration is not good.

 

Tbh Vanguard is unfinished. It's another rushed release right after the Terrible. And it's as terrible. Absolutely no point on buying that ship when you can get a Nelson or Hood for captain training, or buy a Roma/Massa/Bama.

 

That ship needs higher shell velocity and better gun angle to be competitive.

 

Ffs, using all guns with it means you show a 45° angle. Even if you kite, you won't get away with that kind of move against ANY BB player that knows what he's doing. Even GK shows less broadside when using all guns, and GK got armor.

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11 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

I have big problems with Monarchs AP, which is slightly weaker. Vanguard performed well for me, which is probably because of that accuracy. But I am not fan of the short fuse times on such big shells either.

Btw Monarchs HE has 35% fire chance and Vanguards HE has 34%. No big difference.

Monarchs AP is a big relief after KGV... didn't realise the HE is actually any good though. Had to check myself to see it.

Thought it was much less than that. But thanks for the tip, mine is at 32% though because of IFHE (captain from KGV).

 

Spoiler

717560476_MonarchHE.thumb.jpg.da5f6c87b7010ee870c96d074edd003b.jpg

 

 

1 hour ago, ShinGetsu said:

You can't expect Warspite gun on a tier 8 to works properly. It just can't. Warspite guns only works because they overmatch everything in the 5-7 MM spread. But their penetration is not good.

Never realised that either, I guess I now got my wish having the QE guns on the KGV, just one tier up.

Makes sense why I have less problems with Monarch than I had with KGV. 


Maybe I'll even like Vanguard... Naaahhh better Hood and Warspite for me. Because that's a valid point you have there.

Warspite/QE guns at tier 8, never realised that. Good one. :cap_like:  

Spoiler


1642128328_MonarchKing.thumb.jpg.fc3f9fd071978d725511f23f7efdef05.jpg1910537824_Monarch100k-3.thumb.jpg.3acf130c43070bfd8008ab0b3244e8cb.jpg2109187939_Monarch100K-1.thumb.jpg.8089a23d03d1e343eeee2d4763eb0775.jpg

 

 

 

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I've only played 1 game with her so far but she did pretty well despite what was ultimately a loss.

 

Also, for everyone who keeps pointing out she has the same guns as Warspite, that is correct, however, she fires different shells. Her SAP shells have increased penetration, damage and reduced fuse time, making them better shells than both Warspite and Hood fire, despite using the same guns to do so.

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2 hours ago, ShinGetsu said:

You can't expect Warspite gun on a tier 8 to works properly. It just can't. Warspite guns only works because they overmatch everything in the 5-7 MM spread. But their penetration is not good.

2

 

I fail to see what in earth this has anything to do with Vanguard. Vanguard gets the same rifles as Warspite, but gets a completely different shell with higher shell velocity and equal penetration to that of German 15'' battleships.

Long story short: you're complaining about a non-existing issue because everyone knows german 380mm guns have perfectly workable penetration, and if so, Vanguard getting exactly the same pen values, also has it.

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