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Benzo7

Buff German secondary damage?

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NO idea if this is the right place to post this so sorry if it's in the completely wrong place.  (I did see a thread about introducing an "ignore that ship" command so...)

 

I saw a post on the dev blog about changing all of the secondaries that use AP to use HE (which I am ALL for. (I knew putting a secondary build on Nelson was worth it!)) and the 120mm secondaries on the Giulio Cesare will have a maximum damage of 1700.

Which is the same as the Grosser Kurfurst's 150mm guns 30mm higher in calibre.

And, going back to Nelson, it's 152mm secondaries will have a maximum damage of 2150 only 2mm higher.

And then there's the Yamato/Musashi/Izumo 155mm secondaries which will have a maximum damage of 2600 which is still only 5mm higher.

 

I know the 1/4 penetration rule for Germans somewhat contradicts the lower damage, but I don't know. What are your thoughts?



Inb4 get [edited]-blasted in the replies.

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5 minutes ago, Benzo7 said:

NO idea if this is the right place to post this so sorry if it's in the completely wrong place.  (I did see a thread about introducing an "ignore that ship" command so...)

 

I saw a post on the dev blog about changing all of the secondaries that use AP to use HE (which I am ALL for. (I knew putting a secondary build on Nelson was worth it!)) and the 120mm secondaries on the Giulio Cesare will have a maximum damage of 1700.

Which is the same as the Grosser Kurfurst's 150mm guns 30mm higher in calibre.

And, going back to Nelson, it's 152mm secondaries will have a maximum damage of 2150 only 2mm higher.

And then there's the Yamato/Musashi/Izumo 155mm secondaries which will have a maximum damage of 2600 which is still only 5mm higher.

 

I know the 1/4 penetration rule for Germans somewhat contradicts the lower damage, but I don't know. What are your thoughts?



Inb4 get [edited]-blasted in the replies.

Hmm, actually, they have the 1/4 penetration also means ,they don't use full HE shells, more something like HE/AP hybrid shells. To be able to penetrate armor, they need a heavier, stronger "head" or tip. Guess that's why there is less space for the exploder / gun poweder, what ever they use

 

Just like this: The red stuff is the exploder, with a stronger AP shell, there is less space for TNT or what ever they use.

 

Spoiler

shells.thumb.png.08899a4dd8b1b3fd15745a9dbd121455.png

 

But that's only assumption, maybe I'm wrong :D

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fits in with the other german ships - they all have lower HE damage relative to the rest of the world. So no, no need to change that.

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It was one caliber that didn't have the 1/4 pen with the german BB ships, it was either the 105 or the 150.

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German HE (at least for BBs, not sure about CAs) - increased pen, higher than average fire chance, lowest alpha. Seems to fit right in

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2 hours ago, Sturmtiger_304 said:

It was one caliber that didn't have the 1/4 pen with the german BB ships, it was either the 105 or the 150.

It is 105mm. 150mm has 1/4 pen.

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And why the 105s don’t have the pen bonus? I mean, if the damage is so pitiful and the fire chance more of the same, why they don’t give it the good pen so people are not forced to use IFHE for make german secondaries somewhat effective on the ships with 105s? The Kii has the increased pen and is not OP, would the German ones be OP with the increased penetration, both 105s plus the 128s? I think not, specially because of the said lower damage and fire chance, which are quite good in the French ones for example, prevents them from being overpowered.

 

 

Not like german BBs have much going for them apart from tanking and....well that is it because all the other navies have far better guns (Republique) accuracy (Montana And Yamato) or absurd HE and concealment (Conqueror)

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Dont the german bbs also have higher range and better rate of fire/more secondaries?

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30 minutes ago, thiextar said:

Dont the german bbs also have higher range and better rate of fire/more secondaries?

Yes and no, the French compete with them when it comes to secondaries, although they need IFHE on many of their ships to fully utilize them.

 

According to the Anaheim event today secondaries are getting a rework. They want to make them more viable.

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2 hours ago, FrankvC_Jr said:

And why the 105s don’t have the pen bonus? I mean, if the damage is so pitiful and the fire chance more of the same, why they don’t give it the good pen so people are not forced to use IFHE for make german secondaries somewhat effective on the ships with 105s? The Kii has the increased pen and is not OP, would the German ones be OP with the increased penetration, both 105s plus the 128s? I think not, specially because of the said lower damage and fire chance, which are quite good in the French ones for example, prevents them from being overpowered.

 

 

Not like german BBs have much going for them apart from tanking and....well that is it because all the other navies have far better guns (Republique) accuracy (Montana And Yamato) or absurd HE and concealment (Conqueror)

This might be wrong, but from my understanding the 1/4 pen applies to guns the same size as main battery guns in the German tech tree. 

 

So the 150s get the 1/4 pen since the German DDs can use those (although the DDs don't get the 1/4 pen, maybe they should...), but the 105s don't get the 1/4 pen since no ship uses them as their main battery guns that I know of.

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The main difference between German secondaries and other secondaries is their range. Germans can extend their range out far enough to be useful, other BBs (except French and a few premiums) can't really do that.

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Let's also mention the fact that secondaries are very powerful against DDs, but in high tiers like T10 their usefullness get's obsolete pretty quickly due to the short range and low raw damage.

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EDIT: whoops wrong thread

This is what I get for having so many tabs open.

 

Though to add my opinion to this:

How about no?

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53 minutes ago, Sturmtiger_304 said:

Let's also mention the fact that secondaries are very powerful against DDs, but in high tiers like T10 their usefullness get's obsolete pretty quickly due to the short range and low raw damage.

The last tier that has viable German secondaries is 8th. Both Friedrich der Große and Großer Kürfurst fare extremely poorly when specced for secondaries, as they are too big and clumsy to fully exploit the secondary battery.

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I do feel that German secondaries  should be better. They suffer so badly at range that I’d like them a little better in a brawling situation. 

I received a Varg camo so I had to take my Bismarck out with a 10 point captain. It’s terrible without secondaries, the hood is probably better!

 

The Kurfursts  guns don’t set fires as well as Bismarck’s but pen cruisers and high tier dds much better.

 

french secondaries have a much higher fire chance but limited pen. Wargaming are looking into  making secondaries more viable. 

 

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the german 105 mm guns need 1/4 pen treatment. the rest do not need any buffs. the 150mm guns already pen 37mm of armor and the 128 ones 31. kurfurst and gneiseneau can rip apart cruisers with these secodarys but tirpitz and bismarck and even de grosse cant. 

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8 hours ago, Aragathor said:

Both Friedrich der Große and Großer Kürfurst fare extremely poorly when specced for secondaries, as they are too big and clumsy to fully exploit the secondary battery.

 

Yep, definetely this one. I was initially going for secondary build since T7, but FDG was so shitty i skipped it, and playd GK a handful of battles now - i already moved away from a bit from the secondary build by speccing CE (already made life much easier compared to the first battles without) and i switched the 3rd slot secondary module to aiming system mod 1. Havent tried how that works out yet, but i assume its better than to have useless secondaries most of the game.

My secondary range is still 10,2km, lets face it, thats plenty, because:

- A DD being >10,2km and <11,6km will hardly get hit by secondaries anyway. Also he most likely can escape that range. A DD which is closer to me is a viable target, and the extra range doesnt help me.

- A BB being between that range: Well that actually can happen, however you mostly would count on fires for meaningful damage. Imo its not a big loss

- A Cruiser at that range: Probably the best target because it will receive damage and is big enough to get hit. Now comes the BUT: with better main guns, its more likely that i can get rid of that Cruiser with those that wait what my secondaries will do to it. And probably no Cruiser wants to be that close to a BB anyway (unless its a hindi - but that means it will come closer than 10,2km also)

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I think we should wait and see how the German BB identity evolves after the buffs/changes to the other nations.

But I kinda agree that they should have the strongest secondaries. Virtually having no citadel is no USP anymore and their bad gun angles still compensate for that. Plus they still have kinda shitty guns, generally speaking.

 

BUT FdG will receive a buff. It's too early to demand stronger secondaries imo.

 

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Who cares? You could strap a 10km range Minotaur to the side of a BB and almost all BB players will still sit 18km away and run when a DD gets spotted

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Vor 4 Stunden, fallenkezef sagte:

Who cares? You could strap a 10km range Minotaur to the side of a BB and almost all BB players will still sit 18km away and run when a DD gets spotted 

Wait, what did you just say... 18km away and running, I was already annoyed by that 18 km away.

 

Maybe instead of buffing secondaries some BB should just get two speed levels for backing away.

(If wargaming takes this as a viable idea you all may come and shoot me.)

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4 hours ago, aboomination said:

I think we should wait and see how the German BB identity evolves after the buffs/changes to the other nations.

But I kinda agree that they should have the strongest secondaries. Virtually having no citadel is no USP anymore and their bad gun angles still compensate for that. Plus they still have kinda shitty guns, generally speaking.

 

BUT FdG will receive a buff. It's too early to demand stronger secondaries imo.

 

The line is not made up of FdG, there are other ships that struggle there. Not as much as FdG though, but that has nothing to do with secondaries but the fact that FdG is just overall horrible.

Großer Kürfurst is just not a good secondary platform, the guns are nice but you tend to eat constant fire, as you are big and clumsy.

Bismarck is ok.

Gneisenau? Second worst damage on tier. After Lyon came out Gneis lost a lot of utility as a secondary platform, since Lyon can do that too.

Bayern and lower? Not really secondary focused ships, the range and the skills aren't there (Man Sec is useless on them).

 

 

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45 minutes ago, GA_Tirpitz said:

Wait, what did you just say... 18km away and running, I was already annoyed by that 18 km away.

 

Maybe instead of buffing secondaries some BB should just get two speed levels for backing away.

(If wargaming takes this as a viable idea you all may come and shoot me.)

I'm already surprised most of them stay camped bow-in.... 

I think a premium ship with all guns strapped reverse-French-style to the rear would sell incredibly well. 

 

We can call it the USS Coward or something. 

vittorio41.thumb.gif.bd4ba3b56c77a104d243a92ade7b0192.gif

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6 hours ago, Animalul2012 said:

the german 105 mm guns need 1/4 pen treatment. the rest do not need any buffs. the 150mm guns already pen 37mm of armor and the 128 ones 31. kurfurst and gneiseneau can rip apart cruisers with these secodarys but tirpitz and bismarck and even de grosse cant. 

105s at T8+ cannot even pen DDs, which shows how crap they are.

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33 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

 

105s at T8+ cannot even pen DDs, which shows how crap they are.

Which is why the switch to 'all secondaries shoot HE' makes sense, well, sort of. 

Also, if you have a T7 you have the same sort of '105' problem when you get uptiered.

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