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Semi AP Ammo

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Hi everybody,

I was just thinking about the current HE meta. Lots of bbs HE spamming from map border moving around to "farm" fire damage. This situation destroyed 2 particular aspects of the game:

- Every AA build is now completely useless cause it gest destroyed after few minutes in the battle. One single salvo from an english BB is enough to make your mounts go to heaven. Furthermore BBs are sided by cruisers, cv bombers and dds in the HE fiesta.

- Pushing in a BB is becoming more and more difficult: you get perma focused by legions of spammers without any option to angle against those shells.

 

In my humble opinion HE spamming should be restricted to cruisers and dds only. Moreover it would be a great thing to introduce a Semi AP ammunition for some specific BBs.

This kind of ammunition could have a great alpha damage and behave like a HE shells that destroys mounts but don't causes fires.

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I mean, the bbs spamming he at you have only got themselves to blame. If they used ap when they should(which is most of the time, with the exception of the brits), they would be doing a ton of more damage to you.

 

Sounds like you are just using damage con and heal improperly, or positioning badly if you are having issues with getting focused down.

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19 minutes ago, Graxa_Paskar said:

Every AA build is now completely useless cause it gest destroyed after few minutes in the battle. One single salvo from an english BB is enough to make your mounts go to heaven.

 

I mentioned this point and called it out as a problem, back then, when RN BBs were about to be introduced. It didnt attract much interest and WG didnt care at all, and I think they dont up to this point. Havent heard a single word about it from an offical side. I came to think, that AA-mounts should (upon first hit) only be temporarily disabled, much like main guns and torpedo tubes. Increase the time, that they are disabled, to make it still have and impact for the next wave of the CV, but not for the entire match. But yea - good luck brining that point across to WG...

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18 minuti fa, thiextar ha scritto:

I mean, the bbs spamming he at you have only got themselves to blame. If they used ap when they should(which is most of the time, with the exception of the brits), they would be doing a ton of more damage to you.

 

Sounds like you are just using damage con and heal improperly, or positioning badly if you are having issues with getting focused down.

Absolutely no problems in dealing with my consumables :Smile_Default: it was a statement on how this meta has reduced the possibility to push. Also on german bbs people are starting to prefer a mixed tank/concealment build rather than a secondary build. This is only to counter this mega fire fiesta going around. We are forced to use superintendent and all the other stuff to counter fires instead of focusing on the strong side of our bb.

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8 minuti fa, ForlornSailor ha scritto:

 

I mentioned this point and called it out as a problem, back then, when RN BBs were about to be introduced. It didnt attract much interest and WG didnt care at all, and I think they dont up to this point. Havent heard a single word about it from an offical side. I came to think, that AA-mounts should (upon first hit) only be temporarily disabled, much like main guns and torpedo tubes. Increase the time, that they are disabled, to make it still have and impact for the next wave of the CV, but not for the entire match. But yea - good luck brining that point across to WG...

I did another post like this with my long time gone account. I had 6.5k battles in that. Opened a topic but no one answered..

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22 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

I mentioned this point and called it out as a problem, back then, when RN BBs were about to be introduced. It didnt attract much interest and WG didnt care at all, and I think they dont up to this point.

 

Probably our fault. Skilled CV players brought it up, so WG automatically turned deaf to the issue.

 

On behalf of all of us, I'm so sorry.

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3 minutes ago, Graxa_Paskar said:

Another idea would be to introduce a module that increases, by a certain percentage, AA mounts hp pool. First slot is not enough for this-

 

Ontop of that its literally worthless for AA mounts. We tested that a while back, whether you use that module is basicly irrelevant. Doesnt do anything. What to expect when AA mounts have like 200 HP? Secondaries seem to get a bit buffed by that, so they wont get destroyed in one hit (alltho we didnt try BB HE, so i dunno how that turns out)

 

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Probably our fault. Skilled CV players brought it up, so WG automatically turned deaf to the issue.

 

On behalf of all of us, I'm so sorry.

 

 

image.jpeg.5597cfe069e8d170774aea6a57b6ab12.jpeg

 

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2 hours ago, thiextar said:

If they used ap when they should(which is most of the time, with the exception of the brits)

They have acctually pretty good AP. Not much worse than others imo :) Think most think that they have useless AP. But boy how wrong they are :) Cheers mate

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I've been campaigning for proper SAP ammo since French cruisers were first hinted at.
Then when that fell through, I started doing it with Italian ships, since they have probably the best case for SAP as a solid alternative to proper AP.

 

I asked around in a dev Q&A if the possibility of it was even technically possible, no answer.
For reference, I made the case that it's entirely possible. HE shells currently have an almost instant fuze and 0 krupp, which translates into 0mm of penetration, which results in a shatter, followed by an explosion almost instantly afterwards.

I postulate that it's possible to have a pseudo HE shell with a krupp and fuze set to higher values in order to penetrate.

 

Somehow, considering WG's moves to simplify everything, I doubt that another ammo type will be implemented.
People already have trouble with DW torps, despite there being text on the UI during battle telling you what targets your DW torps can and can't hit, to the point of it being on the damn cursor and still being ignored.

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16 minutes ago, Graxa_Paskar said:

Another idea would be to introduce a module that increases, by a certain percentage, AA mounts hp pool. First slot is not enough for this-

I hope they realize it before the CV rework goes live. 

We need AA to prevent the new CV to farm repeatedly one ship with multiple attacks per squadron.

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There is a module that increases the survival rate of AA mounts and a module for improving AA defense as well a Captain skills that improve AA performance with a flag to add a little more...

 

However, in my opinion, I think that in a game where CV(s) are present people forget that if ships stay close together when enemy aircraft are inbound their AA protection increases significantly thus reducing the chance of being heavily damaged or sunk....

 

I played a game in my Scharnhorst with my clan mate in his Scharnhorst and the enemy CV gave up attacking us as we chewed his aircraft to pieces..we tried to stay within 2-3km of each other, we also had 4 fighters available, using the direction centre for catapult aircraft skill, when needed and launched at each incoming attack so as to give us the best chance of survival. His attacks did minimal damage and only his bombers got through usually losing over 50% of his planes before bombs were dropped... Between us we accounted for 29 aircraft.341807531_Screenshot(448).thumb.png.00e575fbe56a54291779c36bc9afee6a.png

 

 

As to BB's pushing, you have a higher chance of surviving HE fire if you don't push alone. Ensure you have sufficient support and use the F3 key to ask your allies to pop a HE heavy ship.

 

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55 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

There is a module that increases the survival rate of AA mounts

 

That module is legit useless. Ive tested it with @DFens_666 a while ago and made a detailed topic around it. There is hardly even a difference, when a 152mm-cruiser is HE-spamming the AA-mounts of a BB. The thing is: low- and middle-caliber AA-mounts have like 160...320 HP. It gets doubled by the module but since a HE-hit usualy still deals more dmg with one hit - the AA-mount gets disabled either way. The only thing, were you could see a difference, were the big-caliber AA-mounts, like 100mm stuff. Then again - those often contribute only little to the AA-dpm.

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2 hours ago, Exocet6951 said:

I've been campaigning for proper SAP ammo since French cruisers were first hinted at.
Then when that fell through, I started doing it with Italian ships, since they have probably the best case for SAP as a solid alternative to proper AP.

 

I asked around in a dev Q&A if the possibility of it was even technically possible, no answer.
For reference, I made the case that it's entirely possible. HE shells currently have an almost instant fuze and 0 krupp, which translates into 0mm of penetration, which results in a shatter, followed by an explosion almost instantly afterwards.

I postulate that it's possible to have a pseudo HE shell with a krupp and fuze set to higher values in order to penetrate.

 

Somehow, considering WG's moves to simplify everything, I doubt that another ammo type will be implemented.
People already have trouble with DW torps, despite there being text on the UI during battle telling you what targets your DW torps can and can't hit, to the point of it being on the damn cursor and still being ignored.

IFHE acts like SAP and is therefore already in the game 

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25 minutes ago, pzkpfwv1d said:

IFHE acts like SAP and is therefore already in the game 

 

No.
That doesn't even make sense.

IFHE increases the penetration of the explosion.
An SAP shell has to physically penetrate armor before exploding, or else it acts as an HE shell with a reduced burst charge.

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4 hours ago, Graxa_Paskar said:

Another idea would be to introduce a module that increases, by a certain percentage, AA mounts hp pool. First slot is not enough for this-

 

Unless that's by a very large amount it won't work and there are significant potential issues with upping the HP of modules.

 

An alternative would be to make the Damage Control Party repair AA modules the same way they do for engines and rudder. 

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When WG introduce the RN and FR line with retarded fire % that ignore game mechanics...well we have to deal with the fallout. Why shoot AP when HE can break all the enemy models, set him on 3 fires and rinse and repeat? No matter what their angles are..

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8 hours ago, Graxa_Paskar said:

This kind of ammunition could have a great alpha damage and behave like a HE shells that destroys mounts but don't causes fires.

 

The maximum damage of a shell type in game is the wrong way round to start with. A naval HE shell (which would have a short time delay fuse anyway to penetrate soft armour) carried more explosive charge than an AP shell, which had a large proportion of its shell weight in material designed to punch a hole through armour. Semi AP was something in between the two basically, so would have had more explosive charge than AP round, but less than an HE round. All shell types would have had the potential to start a fire if it could penetrate into an area or impact on a surface where something was flammable.

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15 minutes ago, Armorin said:

 

The maximum damage of a shell type in game is the wrong way round to start with. A naval HE shell (which would have a short time delay fuse anyway to penetrate soft armour) carried more explosive charge than an AP shell, which had a large proportion of its shell weight in material designed to punch a hole through armour. Semi AP was something in between the two basically, so would have had more explosive charge than AP round, but less than an HE round. All shell types would have had the potential to start a fire if it could penetrate into an area or impact on a surface where something was flammable.

all of which would be relevant if this was a simulator, but it's a game...

although I do wonder what the game would look like if HE shells worked like they do in Tanks, where they do have the highest alpha and deal a fraction of that based on how close they were to penetrating the armour hit (rarely full damage due to low pen value, but also rarely zero), as opposed to the more simplistic yes-or-no system Warships uses...

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