Destroyers and bad game design

[Colonel_Boom]

Hello,

 

i wanna talk about the current clusterf*ck that is the game design in WoWs especially in high tiers.

First we have the ship classes sorted by the severety of problemtics:

1.CV

2.DD

3.CL/CA

4.BB

 

1.CV should be self explanatory. They have the highest carry potential since they basically have permaradars, strike potential and invulnerability.

2.Next is the DD. They are hard to spot, hard to hit and have access to the highest damage weapons in the game that can strike without being seen.

The big problem with the DDs is that they can only be really hardcountered by planes or radar in high tiers which imo is bad game design.

3. Cruisers are currently the game deciders. They burn battleships down, punish DDs and have defensive tools against all classes. Especially in high tiers that becomes very prevelant.

4. BBs have the lowest carry potential in the game right now because literally every other class can counter them. Let it be HE spam, torpedo threat, planes. They can still be used effectively when the team is good but the current passive Meta doesn't suit them since getting close to enemies is being punished. The times when BBs reigned supreme have been over for a long time now.

 

Problems:

The main problem is the game design between destroyers and other classes. If you would make radar/CVs useless then DDs would be too strong and could only be countered by other DDs. If DDs would only have stealth, speed and weaker fire power then that would be no problem but they have torpedos and smokes as well.

Imo, every ship should be able to counter DDs more or less effectively or be able to build the ship to be a DD counter. But the current consumable and spotting is a hindrance to that.

 

Playing DDs in high tiers is currently very taxing but if you get rid of the hard counters, they would become far too strong. There is a reason why ppl use radar ships and thats not just to spank DDs.

I made this post because i want to change the game design around DDs to make it more fun to play DDs but also fun for every other ships class to play against them.

 

MfG Boom

[ColonelPete]

• all classes, except CV, have similar WR
• there are different types of DD, they are not all the same
• DD are countered by DD
• these "highest damage" weapons have an exremly long reload and not all DD have them/can use them

[MrWastee]

1.: doesnt matter at all anymore.... brace urselves, rework is coming...

 

2.: imo there u lack the most important counter to dd's: dd's.

 

3.: 1st CA's op post ever?!.... don't get me wrong, t10's cruisers are quite powerful! but i really not see em dominate in the sense stated

 

4.: imo that goes for potatoe bb's, yeah.... but the reign of superior ap, if ever i see it might decline with a fx for bb ap... nothing i would set my money on lol.

 

 

someone plz prove me wrong and get the numbers somewhere, i'm lazy :).....

 

 

all in all this one gets a 4/10 from me

[Allied_Winter]

So you want one class to be balanced by litterally EVER other class? Sounds ... broken to me imho.

 

And theoretically we have one class that counter DDs --> Cruisers. Yes, some are less suited than others, but their DPM is their power against DDs. And that some players are not able to fully utilise the strength of a Cleveland or Chappayev against DDs is not a class problem. It's PEBCAK

[CptBarney]

Well firstly cv’s are getting reworked.

 

Secondly dd’s without smoke would struggle in some cases to perform well and do adaquatley against other ship groups also smoke can also be used as a team utility to help others stay hidden while you spot everything decreasing the enemies dpm and kill potential by a large amount, also dds have very little hp in general so focus them whenever they get spotted.

 

cruisers were designed to kill dds mainly and support bbs so im not surprised they are effective against dds as that is one of the jobs of a cruiser, also cruisers are your flexi ships they are supposed to be multi-role. Also torpedos allow dds to engage targets they normally cant and become a hard counter to bb’s.

 

thirdly bb’s are i think the most popular ship class atm and are the only class to end ships from full hp in a single salvo, they also have unparalleled armour and survivability allowing them to soak and dish out damage for their team in which bbs should swap positions when one is losing a fair bit of hp to recover.

 

dds are meant to push, deny areas of the map and capture locations plus spot positions and counter bbs. Cruiser are there to provide mostly secondline support, aircraft killer, ultility and dd hunters. While bbs are surposed to be your tanks and bruisers (depending on nation and ship) soaking up damage while dealing as much damage as possible themselves. 

 

I hope i got some of this right.

 

sorry for the long post.

 

forgot to mention some dds are designed to counter other dds so bare that in mind.

[ForlornSailor]

2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

all classes, except CV, have similar WR 

 WUT?

 

3 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

3.: 1st CA's op post ever?!.... don't get me wrong, t10's cruisers are quite powerful! but i really not see em dominate in the sense stated

 

Yea. I found his points 3 and 4 really... weird. I used to play 2xCA Divi on T10 and it was horrible. Your impact on the outcome of the match was... zero. Once we picked up a BB or DD, WR increased and games became a lot better.

 

7 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

So you want one class to be balanced by litterally EVER other class?

 

Im not even sure what exactly he wants/proposes? I fail to find any specific change mentioned :/

[Exocet6951]

DDs are countered by the threat of more numerous cruisers roaming around with hydro, floatplanes, radar, etc... 

 

Something that's hard to achieve when cruisers are less numerous than battleships, and driven to stay back at the risk of instant deletion. 

 

 

As always, the root of the problem is that despite being less carry-capable, BBs are such a threat that they mess up the entire class interaction.

 

 

[DFens_666]

Ill get ma popcorn

 

Yes, I agree, especially since WG is changing CVs, AND they want to change Radar aswell. Both which are countering DD stealth, and both are getting nerfed so to say. Currently even a bad CV player can spot DDs, even when its not deliberate. But after the change, this will be different since they only 1 squad in the air. Ofc a good CV player can just harass the DD himself permanently spotting and damaging him.

Ontop of that, they are changing BB AP vs DDs... I think this are waaay too many changes at once which either are making life easier for DDs, or atleast have the potential to do so. This might make it difficult to change something back, since you dont know what change had what kinda impact (like playing mastermind board game - if anyone knows that)

 

But i dont agree with Cruisers being the deciding factor in a game -> its DDs when there is no CV around. Mostly one side will lose their DDs very quickly, and its downhill from their. If the enemy DDs are good, then you will have problems even with radar.

Also i dont agree, that BBs have the lowest impact in the game. You simply need BBs to not let Cruisers run free. This works even at long range because T10 BBs are very accurate and have the most guns. But any non-Radar Cruiser has no impact to stop a DD run freely, only Radar Cruiser have that ability.

[Taliesn]

BB bingo meme incoming in 9... 8... 7...

 

[RAHJAILARI]

30 minutes ago, Colonel_Boom said:

Hello,

I made this post because i want to change the game design around DDs to make it more fun to play DDs but also fun for every other ships class to play against them.

MfG Boom

Still with you lad and I agree there are issues (though not necessarily on these specifics), but I would be more interest in hearing what improvements do you propose to do exactly?

[fumtu]

39 minutes ago, Colonel_Boom said:

Problems:

The main problem is the game design between destroyers and other classes. If you would make radar/CVs useless then DDs would be too strong and could only be countered by other DDs. If DDs would only have stealth, speed and weaker fire power then that would be no problem but they have torpedos and smokes as well.

 

And why you are thinking that CVs or radar will be make useless against DDs? As far as I know even in CV rework it is still possible to spot and attack the DD. Hell if you are ready to sacrifice all your damage you can keep DD perma spotted, what is removed is that you can perma spot DD and at the same time attack some other distant target. WG so far only considering other ways of radar function. That doesn't mean that anything will change, just the something could change if they decide that radar could/should work differently. I don't see any reason to criticize it without knowing what are you actually criticize.

 

You are totally ignoring the fact that unlike other high tier classes, DDs has the lowest health pool and only few of them have heal. On the other hand their main armament, torps, while having great threat of potential damage, are relatively slow and have slow reload. Their effectiveness could be easily negated by map awareness and changing direction and speed (WASD hacks). 

 

I don't understand what are you actually complaining or what are your proposals. Are you proposing to remove smoke or torps from DDs? Or change their concealment? Or give BBs a radar?

[Episparh]

43 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Yes, I agree, especially since WG is changing CVs, AND they want to change Radar aswell. Both which are countering DD stealth, and both are getting nerfed so to say. Currently even a bad CV player can spot DDs, even when its not deliberate. But after the change, this will be different since they only 1 squad in the air. Ofc a good CV player can just harass the DD himself permanently spotting and damaging him.

Ontop of that, they are changing BB AP vs DDs...

You forgot the flattening of Concealment Expert skill which is a straight nerf to BBs and CA/CL concealment.. 

 

1 hour ago, Colonel_Boom said:

I made this post because i want to change the game design around DDs 

Just keep in mind what happened with CVs... They have huge impact and were really countered just by other CVs, so the rework was needed. ..

So if a DDs have huge impact and are countered only by other DDs guess what will follow. 

[Excavatus]

Lets see how can we summarize the OPs post,

 

• CVs have the most carry potential,
• DDs cannot be countered enough and they have the meanest weapons with ninca stealth
• CA/CLs deciding everything in the battle, with HE spam, fires, radars etc.
• BBs are generally useles...

 

ok, where did I put my bingo card...???

 

The incredibly msyterious thing is,

OP has very very good stats in all ship types...

 

I've alwayst thought that you need to learn the game to do well in it..

 

[GeneralSavage]

55 minutes ago, Colonel_Boom said:

 

3. Cruisers are currently the game deciders. They burn battleships down, punish DDs and have defensive tools against all classes. Especially in high tiers that becomes very prevelant.

That's a lesser known fact imo. Wooster, DM, Hindy, Mino have immense potential, especially with a solid captain build. They:

1)Can farm fire damage (Except mino, ofcourse)

2)Melt broadsides, be it a BB or cruiser

3)tear down aircraft

4)Have gimmick(s)

5)Have better maneuverability and concealment than capital ships

6)Have better survivability than DDs

This combination of 1-6 along with viable captain build and most importantly, a brain with minimum capability to spot an island, tap a button4gimmick and hold LMB can do some impressive work.

 

 

[tajj7]

21 minutes ago, GeneralSavage said:

6)Have better survivability than DDs

 

They have better survivability on paper, because of the HP pool, but in reality they don't because of how hard BBs punish them in almost any situation or angle. 

 

DDs have low HP, but often don't get deleted by one ship or even two ships, they usually die fast because they go to early spots, get spotted and get focused down. But if they avoid that then their lack of citadels, their speed and their concealment means in practical terms they will survive a lot more easily being active than most cruisers will.

 

Many cruisers have spend the whole game hiding behind islands otherwise they just get deleted, most DDs will sail around all game in the open being aggressive because they can dictate engagements in the most part. 

 

Most high tier cruisers spend the game playing defensively, Worcester, DMs lines hide behind radars, Minotaur line sits in smoke waiting for people to push, the others generally keep to range and kiting or also look for islands.  Most cruisers don't do anything agressive unless it's vs other cruisers or DDs and they know the chances of BB deletion is very small.

 

The rest of the time, playing any cruiser you spend the whole game with a fear of deletion that none of the other classes really have. 

[_Teob_]

17 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

 

They have better survivability on paper, because of the HP pool, but in reality they don't because of how hard BBs punish them in almost any situation or angle.

[...]

 

They (CAs) have better survivability objectively as, statistically speaking, DDs still have the lowest match survival rate by far.

So in reality CAs have better survivability than cruisers. This is a fact.

They also have comparable win rates to cruisers and BBs overall (although the range is wider for DDs than for the other classes)

Lastly they do the lowest damage of all classes by a wide margin.

 

So the tl;dr is: collectively DDs die more, do less damage and win about as many matches as the other classes.

 

These are all facts based on both MapleSyrup and Wows-numbers and hold true for all 3 servers.

 

*this all holds true for tier 7+

[Episparh]

52 minutes ago, GeneralSavage said:

That's a lesser known fact imo. Wooster, DM, Hindy, Mino have immense potential, especially with a solid captain build. They:

1)Can farm fire damage (Except mino, ofcourse)

2)Melt broadsides, be it a BB or cruiser

3)tear down aircraft

4)Have gimmick(s)

5)Have better maneuverability and concealment than capital ships

6)Have better survivability than DDs

This combination of 1-6 along with viable captain build and most importantly, a brain with minimum capability to spot an island, tap a button4gimmick and hold LMB can do some impressive work.

 

 

 

1. Can farm damage only if not spotted, else blap with single salvo. 

2. Can mealt broad sides of a BBs only if at extreme close range, but still blap. 

3. Tear down carriers only some of them if spec properly, but carrier will still blap you if he must. Some destroyers have pretty neat AA if spec for such. 

4. Have gimmick - every class have them. 

5. Have better handling than capital ships. Well no, some of them do, others handles worst than Yamato. 

6. Have better survivability than DD. Only if no DDs around, else you see the orange !, a second later a montana or yamato symbol appears on the opposite side of the minimap... 10 sec later blap

 

Button4gimmick and LMB - > go cry in radar discussion megathread

[Hugh_Ruka]

Can somebody explain to me the point of the opening post ? I failed to find any ... or it was just meant to be an incoherent rant ???

[DFens_666]

33 minutes ago, GeneralSavage said:

That's a lesser known fact imo. Wooster, DM, Hindy, Mino have immense potential, especially with a solid captain build. They:

1)Can farm fire damage (Except mino, ofcourse)

2)Melt broadsides, be it a BB or cruiser

3)tear down aircraft

4)Have gimmick(s)

5)Have better maneuverability and concealment than capital ships

6)Have better survivability than DDs

This combination of 1-6 along with viable captain build and most importantly, a brain with minimum capability to spot an island, tap a button4gimmick and hold LMB can do some impressive work.

 

1) this decides no game - if anything it decides the game in the enemies favor. Even more so if you sit behind an Island as a Hindenburg.

2) well melt isnt really the right word against BBs. Alltho Cruisers have the tendency to punish each other quite heavily, regardless of which Cruiser are facing each other, DM/Salem can do it a bit better because of their super-heavy AP shells.

4) Which ship doesnt have gimmicks (and Hindi doesnt even have Radar...)

5) Not really, Hindenburgs concealment isnt too great, and it is quite large and not so maneuverable. It has the advantage tanking wise compared to Worc/DM/Mino ofc, but they have better concealment instead.

6) Id say this is because Cruisers are the most frustrating class to play when you play badly. So if you suck as a Cruiser, i believe you rather switch to DDs (stealth) or BBs (survivability) Many Cruiser player (mains) have adapted (and learned) how to play these ships - and they do it well.

 

Cruisers dont have much impact early in the game - unless they carry Radar and use it. Otherwise, they become more powerful the longer they survive, especially true for ships like Hindenburg, Henri IV and Zao. If at the end of the game, you have an almost full HP Hindenburg, you can basicly do what you want, because even your biggest threat (BBs) will be reduced in numbers.

And a Hindenburg which is only looking for DPM without attracting enemy fire is just played wrong.

[ForlornSailor]

23 minutes ago, _Teob_ said:

They (CAs) have better survivability objectively as, statistically speaking, DDs still have the lowest match survival rate by far.

So in reality CAs have better survivability than cruisers. This is a fact.

 

Since he mentioned Minotaur in that post, that you react to: the T8+ RN CLs meanwhile have survivability rates lower then most DDs. They are getting blabbed left and right, since everyone is shooting at them in their smoke. It has become a pain to play them, especially Neptune and Minotaur. Thats the real fact here..

[Aotearas]

2 hours ago, Exocet6951 said:

DDs are countered by the threat of more numerous cruisers roaming around with hydro, floatplanes, radar, etc... 

 

Something that's hard to achieve when cruisers are less numerous than battleships, and driven to stay back at the risk of instant deletion. 

 

 

As always, the root of the problem is that despite being less carry-capable, BBs are such a threat that they mess up the entire class interaction.

 

Hit the nail on the head.

 

Cruisers need to get close to DDs to counter them. In most cases they will get spotted by said DD a good distance sooner and suddenly you've got five BBs just licking their lips going "om nom nom" and it's realistically impossible for a cruiser player to play any sort of effective DD denial and try to keep track of that much alpha strike potential coming from several angles.

 

It's perfectly possible to keep track of one BB and go evasive when it fires, minimizing the damage a great deal. With sufficient awareness you can also do that for two BBs from two different angles. It's when you have more than that to look for plus everything else you're doing at the moment that it becomes a suicide mission and why most players refuse to do it, leaving DDs to their own devices against enemy DDs most of the time.

 

 

 

But that's nothing new really, ever since the BB population exploded and 5 BB per team MM became the norm, followed by disgruntled cruiser players simply switching to DDs to hardcounter BBs leaving precious little cruiser players left for MM that the game de facto turned into a two class meta, forcing WG to make do-it-all cruisers so that the few still playing them have at least some chance to make themselves felt ...

 

 

WG should've capped BB and DD numbers per team at reasonable ratios a long time ago. They didn't and have been riding the downwards spiral ever since.

[tajj7]

32 minutes ago, _Teob_ said:

 

They (CAs) have better survivability objectively as, statistically speaking, DDs still have the lowest match survival rate by far.

So in reality CAs have better survivability than cruisers. This is a fact.

They also have comparable win rates to cruisers and BBs overall (although the range is wider for DDs than for the other classes)

Lastly they do the lowest damage of all classes by a wide margin.

 

So the tl;dr is: collectively DDs die more, do less damage and win about as many matches as the other classes.

 

These are all facts based on both MapleSyrup and Wows-numbers and hold true for all 3 servers.

 

*this all holds true for tier 7+

 

Statistics don't tell you who plays them or how they are played, which then makes a huge difference. 

 

DDs are generally more skill intensive than other classes and they are often doing front line things so they have more potential to get shot at if the player doesn't use them correctly, which means lots of poor players rush in and die early on completely wasting the potential of the class. Plus they are fast which further adds to the problem as noobs can very quickly rush to their death.

 

Then you have that cruisers are on average played way more passively than DDs are, if DDs played the same sort of passive game that most cruisers they would have way higher survival rates.

 

I feel way more comfortable about playing actively and surviving late game in a DD than I ever do in a Cruiser, Cruiser play in this game revolves around basically not getting deleted and doing everything you can to spot that happening whilst trying to actually do something at the same time.

 

Whereas DD play is much more active and they can do stuff much more on the front foot with far less fear as they have all the tools needed to extract them from a difficult situation and are far less likely to get deleted. 

[El2aZeR]

2 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

Yes, I agree, especially since WG is changing CVs

 

Reworked CVs honestly look to be more of a threat to DDs than they currently are imo.

I mean...

Spoiler

 

 

Half HP gone with only 2 hits, no counterplay options available. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And while spotting has become less globally (from a single CV), it has become far more oppressive locally. That's a trade, not a nerf. If WG holds on to their plans of wanting multiple CVs in a match, global spotting too will harshly increase.

 

Though ofc everything is still up for change, but then again the last time WG balanced according to community feedback we got the GZ, a true marvel of supreme balans.

[22cm]

2 hours ago, MrWastee said:

3.: 1st CA's op post ever?!.... don't get me wrong, t10's cruisers are quite powerful! but i really not see em dominate in the sense stated

He is probably a BB player.

Cruisers OP? Really? With 5 BBs per game? I call that bulshit. 

Only tier 10 cruisers can stand their ground, cruisers from tier 8 below have no heal so are very vulnerable in general, while 2 tier 9 cruisers just had their ROF nerfed, Roon and S. Louis. 

What is worse, while in Randoms the BB numbers were kept below 50% of the team, in the Sprint Ranked, the BB s were 50% or even more of the team. 

[ForlornSailor]

3 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

And while spotting has become less globally (from a single CV), it has become far more oppressive locally. That's a trade, not a nerf. If WG holds on to their plans of wanting multiple CVs in a match, global spotting too will harshly increase.

 

I think I saw you about 3542 times mentioning it and Ive wrote it myself a couple of times. It still doesnt come through. I sure as hell wont be rushing into a cap as the first DD anymore if this CV-gameplay is really going live.