Good DD players - Asashio - yes or no?

[Yaskaraxx]

On 11/13/2018 at 4:08 AM, Pikkozoikum said:

 

...yeah those are close to legendary stats of a great Asashio player (..sets kind of an example for the many of us asa-players); Pikkozoikum pointed out, explained in his earlier postings that Asashio is more difficult ta be hit by enemy than most other T8/9/10 destroyers(...take a look at his postings, he explaines it in game-mechanical-ways)...and at this point in time, i must say that I am indeed a 100% sure that Asashio (VIII) is indeed more difficult to be hit by enemy ships (= compared to other T8/9/10) destroyers (= i myself experienced exactly that, in my own battles). So yeah, Pikkozoikum statement are a 100% accurate, no doubt about that(!) This also means that well timed rushing-in-towards enemy battleships brings realy good results (i noticed that in me own battles)...but time it well. Anyway: much enjoy yr fascinating King Cobra Ninja Asashio (VIII)...I for sure do so (= in my very top 3 most favourite ships)

 

(..was my very last comment on Asashio, all has been discussed/explained/mentioned/said in the foregoing comments, take a look at those, going full dark now for long time, bye & have fun!)

[antean]

On ‎12‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 3:46 PM, MRGTB said:

Was a nice gesture by Yaskaraxx to gift you the ship to try out and see what you think of it.

It was a nice gift (TY, again, Yaskaraxx). I haven't played it enough (3 battles? so far) to form a valid opinion, however, a couple points come to mind …

 It is squishy. It has long range torps (which I like) although torps not active vs DDs. I went for 16K range & slightly faster torps (hope that is wise).

I was not in my Asashio in that battle but I did see an enemy Asashio somehow sink 2 of my team mates, apparently by surprise torps (right at start of the battle).

 As to who to listen to re: this thread - my inclination is to listen to El2aZeR.

[MRGTB]

1 hour ago, antean said:

I went for 16K range & slightly faster torps (hope that is wise).

Been thinking about taking that skill also. As 16k is still good enough for long range torping but with a much faster torp speed. Anything shot over 16k at aimed targets (with slower standard torp speed) is unlikely to hit anyway. Mostly due to the time the ship has to change direction before the torps reach them. Although, a good thing about the Asashio is that you use a wider spread with the torps that most other DD's don't have the same wider spread. If I shoot torps lets say at 15k plus range, I would tend to use the widest spread to allow for ships changing direction and still maybe getting a torp hit chance on it, or on another BB close to it

[HaachamaShipping]

While I do not have the ship (and no intention of getting it), I'm not really sold on TA. The main issue is not losing 4 km range. To me, it's losing 2 captain points to get a better speed when old speed is pretty serviceable. Also, pretty much means just running standard IJN DD captain, with LS and AR for 2 pt skills, TAE and SE for 3 pt skills, RPF and CE for 4 pt skills. Especially if you actually plan to get involved, the AR seems more useful, imo. Alternatively, 19 pt Akizuki commander. May seem stupid at first, but with IFHE, the 127 mm guns can pen cruisers and being actually able to do some reliable damage might alleviate some of the lack of versatility issues. In neither build, TA features as I don't see the value.

[Jagod]

On 1/6/2019 at 12:38 AM, Riselotte said:

Alternatively, 19 pt Akizuki commander. May seem stupid at first, but with IFHE, the 127 mm guns can pen cruisers and being actually able to do some reliable damage might alleviate some of the lack of versatility issues. In neither build, TA features as I don't see the value.

That's a very interesting suggestion, nice thinking outside of the box there! Alternatively my suggestion for the last 2 points would be EM. I use it on my Kagero captain and while it still does not make the guns competitive in close quarters, it makes them quite a bit more comfortable to use.

[Pikkozoikum]

That's my build. SE and Expert Marksman for the gun fights against other dds, using the Taliban strategy, hit and run. While moving away and using the rear turrets, the Expert marksman helps for more mobility without losing fire frequency. SE is pretty strong on Asashio, since that ship has a pretty low HP pool. I prefer the +5 Knots, because 16 km are more than enough. 20 km can help, but faster torps are just more nasty and even harder to dodge

 

[HaachamaShipping]

6 minutes ago, Jagod said:

That's a very interesting suggestion, nice thinking outside of the box there! Alternatively my suggestion for the last 2 points would be EM. I use it on my Kagero captain and while it still does not make the guns competitive in close quarters, it makes them quite a bit more comfortable to use.

Frankly, I would love to take EM on IJN DDs, but I typically find straight up RoF buffs better. As the majority of the time you are kiting anyway, two turrets already have not too hard a time staying on target and I doubt the third will matter, unless you angle in and out, in which case EM isn't that important to begin with. AR to throw out more shells and if you get reduced to low hp, more torpedoes, is a bit more useful imo.

 

As to IFHE, it's not salvaging this DD for me, as it's still piss poor solution, but it is some better solution than nothing. So far, I got killed by an Asashio once in my career, which was as a Prinz Eugen on 600 hp. After the third salvo, the Asashio managed to actually hit the superstructure and do damage. With IFHE, one salvo would have sufficed. Yesterday, I was up vs an Asashio endgame with my Mogami on 3-6k hp or so and that thing had full hp. Had it had IFHE, it would have gunned me down without issues, but it just tried to torp me (  ) then proceeded to shoot me while smoking up. HE did predictably nothing to a 25 mm hull, he switched to AP and did a bit before I angled too sharply. In the end, he tried to go for a ram, but was stopped in his tracks by Mogami's overwhelming firepower. Obviously, if I wasn't this low, the low dpm on an asashio would still not win a gun duel, but it's all about improving the odds. In the end though, if I wanted a DD that I can rely on to be useful no matter what, I wouldn't go with Asashio, as I have better options.

[Migantium_Mashum]

I have the Asashio and Asashio B... I am a DD player and find my Asashio(s) a great DD to play even though they are only T8.

Amazing concealment at 5.5km means you can spot for fun, just remember radar or hydro capabilities of your enemy and they'll never find you, Asashio is good for capping and later in the game good for hunting BB's..

So what if she can't sink DD's or Cruisers with torpedoes; just skillfully latch on to a BB get closer to your target fire your torpedoes at 6km and those torpedoes don't half sting.. Her guns are good but you must know your enemy before you engage. Her AA defence capability isn't bad either for a DD.

 

The player determines the performance of the Asashio.. in some games you will not accrue a massive damage total but you will cap, spot and in general keep the enemy guessing.. In other games if enemy DD's and Radar Cruisers are down you can achieve some good numbers.. DD's must be versatile and sometimes just being the eyes of the team is enough.. does it matter you finish low down the list in a victory if you have provided the targets for your allies to kill? A win is a win... Asashio in my opinion, despite the torpedo limitations, has much to offer.

[HaachamaShipping]

23 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

Amazing concealment at 5.5km means you can spot for fun,

5.4 km. Do you not run camo or what?

23 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

So what if she can't sink DD's or Cruisers with torpedoes; just skillfully latch on to a BB get closer to your target fire your torpedoes at 6km and those torpedoes don't half sting.. Her guns are good but you must know your enemy before you engage. Her AA defence capability isn't bad either for a DD.

If I were to torp a BB from 6 km, why would I need an Asashio? At that point a Kagero could delete the BB. Or a Hsienyang if you need DWT.

25 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

Her AA defence capability isn't bad either for a DD.

Two twin mounts of 25 mm Type 95 for 10 dps. Tachibana at T2 has her main guns act as AA for 8 dps. T3 DDs outclass the Asashio in AA.

28 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

The player determines the performance of the Asashio.. in some games you will not accrue a massive damage total but you will cap, spot and in general keep the enemy guessing.. In other games if enemy DD's and Radar Cruisers are down you can achieve some good numbers.. DD's must be versatile and sometimes just being the eyes of the team is enough.. does it matter you finish low down the list in a victory if you have provided the targets for your allies to kill? A win is a win... Asashio in my opinion, despite the torpedo limitations, has much to offer.

As I think @ShinGetsu once said, it's interesting how it needs Asashio for people to discover that DDs can in fact spot and teamplay.

[Pikkozoikum]

5 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

As I think @ShinGetsu once said, it's interesting how it needs Asashio for people to discover that DDs can in fact spot and teamplay.

 

Like this?

 

 

Last game, Ashasio was moving to the border. Waited at that point for bbs the whole game. Enemies had both sout/west caps, while the north east cap was uncontested. Even some of cruiser were almost capping it.

 

I'm still considering to contact the person to give some advices

[HaachamaShipping]

Just now, Pikkozoikum said:

 

Like this?

 

 

Last game, Ashasio was moving to the border. Waited at that point for bbs the whole game. Enemies had both sout/west caps, while the north east cap was uncontested. Even some of cruiser were almost capping it.

 

I'm still considering to contact the person to give some advices

I mean, of coudrse you'll find idiots who don't even do that, but the main thing is, people like to claim how you can still spot with Asashio, as if no other DD could do that.

[Pikkozoikum]

Just now, Riselotte said:

I mean, of coudrse you'll find idiots who don't even do that, but the main thing is, people like to claim how you can still spot with Asashio, as if no other DD could do that.

I know ;) it was just funny, because that game is just a few minutes ago, when you wrote that ;P

[Migantium_Mashum]

Yes thank you @Riselotte you are correct 5.4km concealment not 5.5km and yes my camouflage is in order... I got my range mixed up with my other DD's of which I have many.

 

We are talking about the Asashio(B) not Kagero but yes Kagero would work just as well... and does.

As to the 6km torpedo attack the closer the Torpedo attack the more torpedoes hit the target the greater the damage the more likely the kill... again not limited to Asashio(B) but the topic is about them.. isn't it?

 

So I got the AA wrong then... I have nearly 20 DD's so you'll have to forgive the error.

 

The last quote was for the benefit of people who do not know how to use DD's.. I cannot find a part of my post that stated no other DD can do these tasks so that last comment had no relevance to me.. unless can you show me where I said that?

 

So why are you dissecting my post again?

 

[HaachamaShipping]

1 hour ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

Yes thank you @Riselotte you are correct 5.4km concealment not 5.5km and yes my camouflage is in order... I got my range mixed up with my other DD's of which I have many.

 

We are talking about the Asashio(B) not Kagero but yes Kagero would work just as well... and does.

As to the 6km torpedo attack the closer the Torpedo attack the more torpedoes hit the target the greater the damage the more likely the kill... again not limited to Asashio(B) but the topic is about them.. isn't it?

 

So I got the AA wrong then... I have nearly 20 DD's so you'll have to forgive the error.

 

The last quote was for the benefit of people who do not know how to use DD's.. I cannot find a part of my post that stated no other DD can do these tasks so that last comment had no relevance to me.. unless can you show me where I said that?

 

So why are you dissecting my post again?

 

Because basically your post, by your own admission now, is directed at folks who have no clue how to DD, in which case they got better things to do than to play T8 DD. And the rest is you getting data wrong. I have 17 DDs in port (not counting [Shimakaze]) and when I don't know a value, I look it up properly, before making bold claims that just don't hold up. And while concealment is one thing, Asashio having functional AA is a claim that beats everyhing I heard so far and makes one wonder whether you even know what DD you are talking about. Your post got dissected because basically every paragraph had some issues with it.

[El2aZeR]

21 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Asashio having functional AA is a claim that beats everyhing I heard so far

 

I mean, so far we've had:

- Asashio has good concealment

The one thing that's true, although it is also meaningless for the most part. Especially considering some gunboats can reach 5.5km stealth nowadays.

 

- Asashio has good torps

Well, kinda true. Your ability to only hit BBs pretty much means you're powerless against half the enemy team but at least they're stealthy, hit hard and you get TRB.

It should be noted however that torps from hybrid DDs, which are by definition already more versatile than an Asashio will ever be, are also much more versatile and as such can be considered much superior.

 

- Asashio has good guns

Literally some of the worst guns in the game, even with the recent alpha buff (which in reality only reverted a nerf done prior. Guess what, IJN DDs were worthless even before that).

 

- Asashio is small

Very slightly slimmer but also longer than most comparable DDs. When kiting away vertical is much more relevant than horizontal dispersion.

 

- Asashio is fast

Literally one of the slowest DDs in the game.

 

- Asashio is maneuverable

A Gearing, one of the most sluggish DDs to exist, is more maneuverable than an Asashio.

 

- Asashio has good AA

Literally some of the worst AA in the entire game.

 

Is there any trait that hasn't been called good about this piece of garbage yet? Maybe someone will make the claim that she has good armor next?

[MRGTB]

AA on the ship is abysmal, it only has 2x2 AA guns. It is not manoeuvrable and fast for a DD, anyone who says otherwise must have bought this ship and has never played another stock DD in the game to know how it compares "badly" to other DD's on that score. A few other DD's can also get concealment down to match the Asashio at 5.4, so it will get spotted by quite a few other DD's at close range that can boast either 5.5 or 5.4 concealment as well.

 

About the AA guns. Most Dd player, myself included disable AA guns while sneaking about looking for torp hits. They only give you away if they start shooting at spotter planes. So AA isn't really that important on a DD. Only when you decide to turn AA on do they matter, like when heading towards a CV with no other ships in the area to try and kill it and combat it's planes. How often does that happen though? For the most part, a clever DD player will have AA guns turned off most the time so they give his concealment away.

[MRGTB]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

- Asashio has good guns

Literally some of the worst guns in the game, even with the recent alpha buff (which in reality only reverted a nerf done prior. Guess what, IJN DDs were worthless even before that). 

That is wrong really. Are you meaning bad guns to use against other DD's. Well yes, they are, they lack the fire rate to compete, you will be outgunned by other DD's on fire rate (DMP). But they are not bad guns as such, not if used to start fires on Cruisers and BB ships at range in smoke (DMP is not an issue then). They are only bad if you try and take on other DD ships with them. They do better damage than most other DD guns per volley, they are 127mm - but they lack the DMP to take on DD's in close up fights. That doesn't make them bad guns - just bad guns to fight DD's with, is all.

[El2aZeR]

8 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

But they are not bad guns as such, not if used to start fires on Cruisers and BB ships at range in smoke (DMP is not an issue then).

 

You act like Asashio is the only DD that can hit cruisers and BBs with guns.

Guess what, other DDs are more potent at that as well. Good shell ballistics (and lets face it, IJN shell ballistics aren't even that great) literally only favor you in DD fights unless you can't aim in general. There are absolutely no issues hitting cruisers and BBs even at near max range with the floaty USN 5"/38s as they do not have the maneuverability to dodge your steady stream of fire.

 

Did you even think that through when you wrote that?

[MRGTB]

You forget that the guns on the Asashio shooting at Cruisers and BB's are 127mm guns. Not less calibre guns like on many other Brit DD's for example. So they are actually more potent for hitting Cruisers and BB's with than most DD guns are with a lesser calibre like 118mm. Which is why I don't agree with you writing the guns off. You say that from the point of view of only using them in close combat against other DD's with a much faster DMP reload rate than the Asashio- which it cannot compete with - but it's guns are stronger than most other DD's and you'll still take him close in fights even though his DMP is much faster (because you do more damage per volley landed on them). But the DMP he has just beats you in the end

 

You just don't get it that it's not the guns that are crap, but the DMP that is against other DD's + plus it's weaker HP pool that fails it

[ollonborre]

15 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

 

You just don't get it that it's not the guns that are crap, but the DMP that is against other DD's + it's weaker HP pool that fails it

That sounds like pretty crap guns to me. In a DD with great concealment and if you play a DD correctly you will often face down other DD's, having crappy guns is a death sentence.

[Migantium_Mashum]

I still like the Asashio/B in the right hands she is a great tool and lethal...

 

[MRGTB]

Funny enough I did a 140k score last night in mine, same ship Asashio/B. My highest HP score to date done in it last night with that 140k.

 

142k I think it was.

[HaachamaShipping]

42 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

About the AA guns. Most Dd player, myself included disable AA guns while sneaking about looking for torp hits. They only give you away if they start shooting at spotter planes. So AA isn't really that important on a DD. Only when you decide to turn AA on do they matter, like when heading towards a CV with no other ships in the area to try and kill it and combat it's planes. How often does that happen though? For the most part, a clever DD player will have AA guns turned off most the time so they give his concealment away.

No need to turn off AA on Asashio. Your AA range matches aerial detection range. AA guns only open up on aircraft that spot you anyway. And just because it can be turned off doesn't mean AA is pointless. DDs with defAA can avoid getting absolutely murdered by CV, ships with high base AA can at least kill pesky spotter planes. Asashio can neither.

35 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

That is wrong really. Are you meaning bad guns to use against other DD's. Well yes, they are, they lack the fire rate to compete, you will be outgunned by other DD's on fire rate (DMP). But they are not bad guns as such, not if used to start fires on Cruisers and BB ships at range in smoke (DMP is not an issue then). They are only bad if you try and take on other DD ships with them. They do better damage than most other DD guns per volley, they are 127mm - but they lack the DMP to take on DD's in close up fights. That doesn't make them bad guns - just bad guns to fight DD's with, is all.

Against cruisers and BBs, you'd measure in fires per minute, where these guns aren't special either. And dpm vs cruisers or BBs never is the issue on Asashio, because you can't pen most of them.

22 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

You forget that the guns on the Asashio shooting at Cruisers and BB's are 127mm guns. Not less calibre guns like on many other Brit DD's for example. So they are actually more potent for hitting Cruisers and BB's with than most DD guns are with a lesser calibre like 118mm. Which is why I don't agree with you writing the guns off. You say that from the point of view of only using them in close combat against other DD's with a much faster DMP reload rate than the Asashio- which it cannot compete with - but it's guns are stronger than most other DD's and you'll still take him close in fights even though his DMP is much faster (because you do more damage per volley landed on them). But the DMP he has just beats you in the end

 

You just don't get it that it's not the guns that are crap, but the DMP that is against other DD's + plus it's weaker HP pool that fails it

British DDs have smaller guns, but noone cares, because 120 mm guns are no different in HE pen than 127 mm, except with IFHE. Against larger ships, these guns have better rate of fire and good fire chance, meaning they have a far easier time setting fires. Cossack even has an added gun turret.

 

And British 114 mm DDs at T9 and T10 get British semi-AP which you can use to shred cruisers anyway in manners only the IJN alt-DD line can. 

[HaachamaShipping]

13 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

I still like the Asashio/B in the right hands she is a great tool and lethal...

 

Unless you are 1v1 with a cruiser at the end and can't do anything but die. Then you can be absolute unicum and still get shredded. 

[MRGTB]

16 minutes ago, ollonborre said:

That sounds like pretty crap guns to me. In a DD with great concealment and if you play a DD correctly you will often face down other DD's, having crappy guns is a death sentence.

Let me ask you a question? Would you rush at a Tier 10 B in cap using a T8 BB. No you wouldn't. So why do you think an Asashio should rush caps at the start of a game and face other DD's with faster guns.

 

4 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Against cruisers and BBs, you'd measure in fires per minute, where these guns aren't special either. And dpm vs cruisers or BBs never is the issue on Asashio, because you can't pen most of them.

It starts fires quite nicely on Cruisers and BB's. I know that first hand doing it hidden in smoke from 13k away,. I also have the Cossack, frankly there is no difference between the two when it comes to starting fires on Cruisers and BB - if anything I'd says my Asashio does it better than the Cossack (regardless of what fire chance stats may say about each ship)