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Rastrack

stealth firing? render bug?

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Had a match in my Gneisenau, just startet, moving southwest, when, after passing an island, a cruiser, guessing a shchors since he was spotted a few seconds earlier, startet shooting at me.

As he startet shooting, i turned towards him, in case BBs start shooting as well and to try and spot him.

But no ship appeared, just muzzleflashes, moving to the east, about 15km away from me, as i kept closing in, now moving south.

Then a Colorado also took a shot, it got spotted for a second or so on the minimap, but never appeared on the screen, just like the cruiser.

I assume there was no smokescreen since none got rendered in the path between me and those ships.

 

Now, were they just lucky with the range? From my guess neither the Shchors nor the Colorado could have been moving away from me at the same speed as i was closing in, since the Colorado was spotted withim my own detection range, which is at least 1km less then the range of the Colorado, and ~1km less then an upgraded Shchors, which was closer than the Colorado (guessing from where they both were spotted and where the shells came from).

 

So, can someone help me figure that out?

 

Here's a link to the replay:

https://replayswows.com/replay/34575#stats

(happens within the first ~2-3minutes)

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It looks to me like the Shorchs is deliberatly shooting exactly from his max range and since you are moving sideways to him, you leave his gunbloom range the exact moment he shoots. This is something, I demonstrated already over a year ago, when gunbloom-mechanics changed. Every ship can do it under the right circumstances. For everyone else, that is interested in to investigate: I made some screenshots. He actually gets spotted once for a brief moment, as you can see on the minimap. I think its when he sends his first salvo.

 

The Colorado actually has island cover. What spotted him first was the Farragut I assume, which Yolo´ed to his early death (what else is new) and thus the spotting ceases.

 

Spoiler

shot-18_11.05_04.40_11-0859.thumb.jpg.c3394ffa46809a482e11df54c36c6b68.jpgshot-18_11.05_04_40.09-0189.thumb.jpg.5ed1c8267ff40996166e398de53497e7.jpgshot-18_11.05_04_39.57-0360.thumb.jpg.cd9b416779e82c085db5b85bb4b08608.jpgshot-18_11.05_04_39.42-0579.thumb.jpg.e5273cd9cee01f263d9daf36f67882b1.jpg

 

 

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Yepp, he was shooting you outside his gunrange.

With the skill displaying the number of enemies targeting you, you might have seen that he was not locked onto you.

Hint: Never leave your base alone and charge into the enemy like that. Your base had no proper defense and you had no proper support, only the DD could keep up with you.

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It's also possible, under certain circumstances, to stealth fire at DDs from open water with guns that have a high enough gun range as the target DD often lacks the spotting/render range to see the ship shooting at them.

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It seems the rendering bug is back in force indeed, had several instances where Battleships Shoot and disapeared in the same instance. The worst offender was a Republique who could shoot two salvos without getting rendered again.This is quiet annoying as you get instant blapped by targets you can not even see proper. Half of the weekend i had to snapshot oponents that i had line of sight cause they just popped up for seconds. and went dark imidiately. I also noticed that i was not deteced when i should have been, happend to me in the Conquerer and the Worcester several times.

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Me and a lot of my clan members report same "bug" Yamato shots in open he is rendered for a sec and than disapeared, than next game ZAO same thing and so on - first there was ship that was shooting on you and render after 6-7 sec now we have the one that shoot on you and disapeared 1 sec after they shoot or don't show at all  -------------  WG seriously, do you even play this game or test it before you let it on live or all you do is gazilion camos, hockey captain, pumpkin container and other very important things for the game !?!?!?!?!?!??!?

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1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

That is no rendering bug....

Well fine, i get more specific, the rendering of objects in the game is influenced by the poor server client communication that seems to happen since the last update.

Let me example an object in pure line of sight like a Yamato that fires on my vessel is beeing unrendered right in his firing sequence wich should not happen, i expect that the object stays visibile. It can be traced to several issues either the server has a massive delay submitting the relevant information to the client. Or it is the client itself that has a delay because i can see the shells clearly so this information is submitted. Either way naivly spoken it is an unexpected  behaviour to how spotting works as explained by wargaming.

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8 minutes ago, The_Reichtangle said:

Well fine, i get more specific, the rendering of objects in the game is influenced by the poor server client communication that seems to happen since the last update.

Let me example an object in pure line of sight like a Yamato that fires on my vessel is beeing unrendered right in his firing sequence wich should not happen, i expect that the object stays visibile. It can be traced to several issues either the server has a massive delay submitting the relevant information to the client. Or it is the client itself that has a delay because i can see the shells clearly so this information is submitted. Either way naivly spoken it is an unexpected  behaviour to how spotting works as explained by wargaming.

Not the case in this thread. All other cases need their own replay or better video of the gameplay.

I never encountered a "rendering bug" that could not be explained by the spotting system.

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Shchors gets briefly spotted by the Jervis. Later after he passes the Island, he is moving away towards his own base. Since he has probably only stock range he is shooting you invisiable. The Shchors doesnt even really hit you.

Here is a screenshot that makes it a bit better to understand what is happening. Red dotted circle is concealment (13,3km stock, 11,7km CE skill) to understand why he was briefly spotted. The blue dotted circle is the shooting range.

wgforum.PNG

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2 hours ago, The_Reichtangle said:

It seems the rendering bug is back in force indeed, had several instances where Battleships Shoot and disapeared in the same instance. The worst offender was a Republique who could shoot two salvos without getting rendered again.This is quiet annoying as you get instant blapped by targets you can not even see proper. Half of the weekend i had to snapshot oponents that i had line of sight cause they just popped up for seconds. and went dark imidiately. I also noticed that i was not deteced when i should have been, happend to me in the Conquerer and the Worcester several times.

If the whole enemy loses line of sight right after he shot the gun bloom immediatly resets. It also can be the case that the BB players intentionally or unintentionally used the map circumstances to vision block him while sooting. On some maps is also not that hard. For example HotSpot and Sleeping Giant with its 4 cap layout. In pretty much 1 out of 10 games I can go mid with my BB and shot all the enemys while being unspotted. Because most of the time a team lemmings to each side. 

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1 hour ago, konean said:

If the whole enemy loses line of sight right after he shot the gun bloom immediatly resets. It also can be the case that the BB players intentionally or unintentionally used the map circumstances to vision block him while sooting. On some maps is also not that hard. For example HotSpot and Sleeping Giant with its 4 cap layout. In pretty much 1 out of 10 games I can go mid with my BB and shot all the enemys while being unspotted. Because most of the time a team lemmings to each side. 

I am well aware of that but there was a plain line of sight no obstuction 15 km away, the bloom resets after 20 seconds. Therefore its a communication issue i don't know how often i have to repeat that. the Ship fires and gets unspotted 10 seconds pass and the ship gets rerendered. Happend more than once. And it is certainly not a part of the spotting mechanics.

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4 minutes ago, The_Reichtangle said:

the Ship fires and gets unspotted 10 seconds pass and the ship gets rerendered.

 

Replay? If the ship is spotted on the minimap but not visible, something is wrong with your client. We had a thread about that not long ago. Some people suffered a 10-15 sec rendering time. I had myself rendering times up to 7 sec. Changed some graphic settings and now everything renders instantly.

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1 minute ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Replay? If the ship is spotted on the minimap but not visible, something is wrong with your client. We had a thread about that not long ago. Some people suffered a 10-15 sec rendering time. I had myself rendering times up to 7 sec. Changed some graphic settings and now everything renders instantly.

Okay let me get something out of the way, i have a degree in software engineering and changing the machine settings would be a fix to some issues but that one just happend to particular ships not to all and not on a regular basis. Hence it hardly can be a graphics setting, you can now go down the customer service route with me and tracer the server in the netherlands or trust on my word that i have done that yesterday and the connection in 11 tries was fine. Let us examine that futher. The Client is a fresh install without Modifications installed 29.10.2018 so since we had one and only one Update in that cycle i think we can fairly assume that it is a client server communication issue as i can rule out spotting mechanics as a cause the ships was in line of sight no obstacles fired his guns and went unrendered. 

I am sorry that i can only provide you a written account as i have to work at the moment.

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10 minutes ago, The_Reichtangle said:

Okay let me get something out of the way, i have a degree in software engineering

 

And I worked in IT-Support of my local town so thats why I dont trust anything before Ive seen it with my own eyes :)

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If this is truly the case then there is an issue with your client or with your connection. A replay would still help to understand the situation better. All in all its the first time I hear of such a problem. 

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1 hour ago, The_Reichtangle said:

Okay let me get something out of the way, i have a degree in software engineering and changing the machine settings would be a fix to some issues but that one just happend to particular ships not to all and not on a regular basis. Hence it hardly can be a graphics setting, you can now go down the customer service route with me and tracer the server in the netherlands or trust on my word that i have done that yesterday and the connection in 11 tries was fine. Let us examine that futher. The Client is a fresh install without Modifications installed 29.10.2018 so since we had one and only one Update in that cycle i think we can fairly assume that it is a client server communication issue as i can rule out spotting mechanics as a cause the ships was in line of sight no obstacles fired his guns and went unrendered. 

I am sorry that i can only provide you a written account as i have to work at the moment.

 

You even can get render "bugs" while watching your own replays which you didnt have while actually playing the game!

First time i realized that not too long ago, when i watched someone elses replay who was shooting at the ship, but it wasnt rendered at my screen. Then it happened to me too, alltho i didnt change any settings in between.

 

I wanted to show how you can easily kill the CV in OP Narai, and then i spotted it

 

Spoiler

dff.thumb.jpg.05638086d3918d365ca33b361d8ece83.jpgsds.thumb.jpg.86976c858d2599bffcbe7094a3d65e89.jpg

 

First pic you can see, im spotted, the CV is spotted on the minimap, but the CV isnt rendered on my screen.

2nd screen i did shoot him (i was locked onto him ofc), but in the replay i never saw it!

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17 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

You even can get render "bugs" while watching your own replays which you didnt have while actually playing the game!

First time i realized that not too long ago, when i watched someone elses replay who was shooting at the ship, but it wasnt rendered at my screen. Then it happened to me too, alltho i didnt change any settings in between.

 

I wanted to show how you can easily kill the CV in OP Narai, and then i spotted it

 

  Hide contents

dff.thumb.jpg.05638086d3918d365ca33b361d8ece83.jpgsds.thumb.jpg.86976c858d2599bffcbe7094a3d65e89.jpg

 

First pic you can see, im spotted, the CV is spotted on the minimap, but the CV isnt rendered on my screen.

2nd screen i did shoot him (i was locked onto him ofc), but in the replay i never saw it!

First one, not sure you'd be able to see him over those rocks. Impossible to tell without knowing exactly where he is, and from just that static picture I'm also not sure whether some ship from the south could be spotting you.

on the second pic, just looking at the minimap I dont see what would be spotting the CV - it's definitely not you, since you're only detected by planes.

Looks to me it might be the minimap bugging out here, and showing the Lexi as spotted when it isnt? Plus, it's not like replays are completely without fault^^

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10 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

First one, not sure you'd be able to see him over those rocks. Impossible to tell without knowing exactly where he is, and from just that static picture I'm also not sure whether some ship from the south could be spotting you.

on the second pic, just looking at the minimap I dont see what would be spotting the CV - it's definitely not you, since you're only detected by planes.

Looks to me it might be the minimap bugging out here, and showing the Lexi as spotted when it isnt? Plus, it's not like replays are completely without fault^^

 

I had already uploaded it, but was too lazy to link it

 

You can see my first salvo is definetely locked (good dispersion) which i can only do if he was spotted :Smile-_tongue:

 

I rather think its interesting, that there is a difference in your own replays compared to what actually happened during the game.

 

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15 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

I had already uploaded it, but was too lazy to link it

 

You can see my first salvo is definetely locked (good dispersion) which i can only do if he was spotted :Smile-_tongue:

 

I rather think its interesting, that there is a difference in your own replays compared to what actually happened during the game.

 

uhm... where's any unexpected behaviour in that at all? there's a slight bit of rendering delay (granted, more than we get on average these days, but nothing extreme) for when you spot the CV initially, and after that you smoke up instantly so of course it's not going to be spotted?

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1 minute ago, Tyrendian89 said:

uhm... where's any unexpected behaviour in that at all? there's a slight bit of rendering delay (granted, more than we get on average these days, but nothing extreme) for when you spot the CV initially, and after that you smoke up instantly so of course it's not going to be spotted?

 

The difference was, that i could actually see him when i played the game!

So the question is: Why is there a difference when i watched the replay on the same PC? Settings are the same, so what did cause that discrepency? Also we really cant know how big the difference really is, since the moment was so brief when he was spotted - or better: How long would it have taken in the repay for the CV to get rendered? Obviously its longer, but by how much?

 

Which makes me wonder: What is really the problem for the difference in rendering time? At this point we can even rule out graphic settings to some degree, since there is a difference between

actual playing the game <-> watching the replay from said game.

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Thanks for the many and some explaining answers!

Kudos to @ForlornSailor and @konean !

Since i never saw those two ships i couldn't guess where they were going (and i don't know how the Shchors plays, speed and gun wise), and probably misguessed the angles we were each going at. But i think Colorado is more of a range thing than island thing, shots seemed to come in an direct line across open waters (although i still can't really grasp how that happend, considering that i turned towards them and Gneisenau is almost 50% faster...).

Guess i have to resort to cliche-BB-tactics :/

(And the rest of the battle was no concern, saw the lemmingtrain behind me, and in lemmingtrain-cases i don't even try)

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6 hours ago, Rastrack said:

Thanks for the many and some explaining answers!

Kudos to @ForlornSailor and @konean !

....

(And the rest of the battle was no concern, saw the lemmingtrain behind me, and in lemmingtrain-cases i don't even try)

That is called a self fullfilling prophecy.

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