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From Reddit (interesting side effect from "fix" regarding AP): On the PTS you can sink a Yamato solely by shooting a single secondary turret with Harugumo AP

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Hi all,

 

From Reddit (interesting side effect from "fix" regarding AP): On the PTS you can sink a Yamato solely by shooting a single secondary turret with Harugumo AP

 

 

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

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From the reddit link:

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

WG: should we just add a new "partial penetration" ribbon, which would solve the problem...

Nahhhh lets just go full retard and break the game, because thats just easier, also Vodka is really [edited]cheap in Russia.

 

 

 

 

Brit tier 7 cruiser with AP vs oversaturated 19 mm BB superstructure = 12 x 310 x 8 RPM = 29760 dmg/min. 

Brit tier 10 cruiser = 10 x 320 x 18.75 = 60 000 dmg /min. BBs and cruisers are rekt! You cant fail to penetrate the superstructure from any angle on any bb or cruiser as long as you can hit it.  The Minoutar has ~1.75x the AP alpha of Harugumo. 

 

Instead of fixing the misinforming ribbon problem they change the game model and now they run into the downside of make those AP-only hack british cruisers earlier. Oooops. This is precisely what I am talking about when I say that wargaming has no game design talent because if you have actually done game design you know that dont break your own game model to fix errors in the graphical user interface ! You also do not introduce hack ships lacking HE but with compensating superduper AP.  

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That's 500 shell hits on a single target with no heal usage.

If a BB is this much out of position he deserves to die. Current BBs live too long anyway.

 

And if you're afraid that this will make BBs camp more, I'm sorry, that changes the current situation how exactly?

If anything this sounds like a great change to me. Bow camping BBs that have infested this game for so long will now go down in 3 minutes instead of 5+ under constant focus fire, which is a pretty good improvement in my book.

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1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

That's 500 shell hits on a single target with no heal usage.

If a BB is this much out of position he deserves to die. Current BBs live too long anyway.

 

And if you're afraid that this will make BBs camp more, I'm sorry, that changes the current situation how exactly?

If anything this sounds like a great change to me. Bow camping BBs that have infested this game for so long will now go down in 3 minutes instead of 5+ under constant focus fire, which is a pretty good improvement in my book.

The problem with this is what it will heavily encourage camping and sniping. A lot of BB players already camp quite hard all game, but there are some that do what they are supposed to, push up a flank with the team and absorb as many shells as possible by angling the ship properly against incoming AP fire from opponents.

 

The only thing this update will do is make even those players camp at the back and simply farm damage and hope for citadels. Or just directly move to a new line entirely and quit battleships.

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44 minutes ago, LazyVegetable said:

The only thing this update will do is make even those players camp at the back and simply farm damage and hope for citadels.

 

No they won't, because they are the ones who will want to win.

This change primarily affects bow camping potatoes who survive far too long or suiciding potatoes who survive far too long. Playing smart will for the most part still yield the same results.

 

And if they quit playing BBs, that's fine too. It's not like BB overpopulation has been running rampant for over 2 years or sth.

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28 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

No they won't, because they are the ones who will want to win.

This change primarily affects bow camping potatoes who survive far too long or suiciding potatoes who survive far too long. Playing smart will for the most part still yield the same results.

 

And if they quit playing BBs, that's fine too. It's not like BB overpopulation has been running rampant for over 2 years or sth.

This change affects battleship playstyle all in all. The main purpose of a battleship is to deal heavy damage assuming RNG doesn't give you depressing dispersion and tank the enemy shells so their allies don't die. A very good way of doing that is angle your bow towards the enemy to minimize the damage you take. You will still take damage, but you will take less of it. This is called playing smart. Not charging right in, not sitting at the back angled, but going with your team and using your angled bow/broadside to bounce as many shells as possible. Just the presence of battleships is enough to warrant everyone to kill it because if RNG blesses them with good dispersion, it's likely they will hurt you enough you will take citadel damage next game.

 

Not to mention the fact that with the new changes, secondary guns on BB will be more useful than the main guns are. Mainly on german battleships. Why even fire the main guns? Just get within 8km of the enemy with a secondary spec and farm damage because you will always deal 10% damage.

 

The entire update is a major nerf to angling to the point it makes it entirely worthless. Currently in order to get good results from your guns you need to know where to aim in order to overmatch the armor, with the changes the game will be dumbed down further than it already is. It will be one giant potato siesta. It's absolutely insane. These changes cannot be allowed to go on the live server.

 

It's absolutely insane that people even try to defend these changes.

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1 hour ago, LazyVegetable said:

This change affects battleship playstyle all in all. The main purpose of a battleship is to deal heavy damage assuming RNG doesn't give you depressing dispersion and tank the enemy shells so their allies don't die. A very good way of doing that is angle your bow towards the enemy to minimize the damage you take. You will still take damage, but you will take less of it. This is called playing smart. Not charging right in, not sitting at the back angled, but going with your team and using your angled bow/broadside to bounce as many shells as possible. Just the presence of battleships is enough to warrant everyone to kill it because if RNG blesses them with good dispersion, it's likely they will hurt you enough you will take citadel damage next game.

 

Not to mention the fact that with the new changes, secondary guns on BB will be more useful than the main guns are. Mainly on german battleships. Why even fire the main guns? Just get within 8km of the enemy with a secondary spec and farm damage because you will always deal 10% damage.

 

The entire update is a major nerf to angling to the point it makes it entirely worthless. Currently in order to get good results from your guns you need to know where to aim in order to overmatch the armor, with the changes the game will be dumbed down further than it already is. It will be one giant potato siesta. It's absolutely insane. These changes cannot be allowed to go on the live server.

 

It's absolutely insane that people even try to defend these changes.

Wait, the change means that all HE shells that would usually shatter now cause 10% damage?

I didn't read that.

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3 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

Wait, the change means that all HE shells that would usually shatter now cause 10% damage?

I didn't read that.

Yes. HE shells no longer shatter, they will always deal 10% damage. Firing at angled enemies or hitting the belt on BBs which currently results in your shells shattering on impact and achieving a grand total of nothing will now always do 10% damage.

 

With the changes, armor is useless by every definition of the word.

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1 hour ago, LazyVegetable said:

This is called playing smart.

 

No, it's called absolutely boring bull that doesn't require a shred of skill nor intelligence. It's the reason why the high tier camping meta exists in the first place as clearly seen with low and mid tiers, where such miserable and pathetic plays aren't possible, being far more dynamic.

 

And quite frankly nobody in their right mind shoots a BB when other more juicy targets are available. This is the inherent problem with "tanking for the team" in this game, namely that it doesn't work. You cannot force the enemy to focus only you and not that exposed teammate of yours. The ability to tank shells is an entirely egoistical trait as it doesn't prevent anyone on the enemy team to punish anyone else on yours.

You are moving with your team to take map control and to keep within effective distance of your guns. Tanking has extremely little to do with teamplay, because every salvo that you tank is a salvo that could've gone to a squishy teammate instead, making it a misplay on the enemy's part, not good play on yours.

 

Also to characterize shells now dealing damage to destroyed secondary and AA guns as the end of all angling is hilarious. "Oh, no, a Minotaur can now kill me within one and a half minutes if every shell is a damaging hit and I'm dumb enough to not know what heal is!" Realistically you will easily survive double that and if you're under fire that long you deserve to die.

This is what happens every :etc_swear:ing time a nerf that primarily hits BBs is proposed. Suddenly it's the end of all BB play, BBs will only camp now and pop the minute the smallest gun decides to shoot them. Everything must be exaggerated to keep BBs as the most braindead class to play by far.

 

The only thing insane here is people like you still defending everything that makes the camping meta what it is.

 

9 minutes ago, LazyVegetable said:

Yes. HE shells no longer shatter, they will always deal 10% damage. Firing at angled enemies or hitting the belt on BBs which currently results in your shells shattering on impact and achieving a grand total of nothing will now always do 10% damage.

On 10/15/2018 at 7:17 PM, Freyr_90 said:

ST. Improved penetration mechanics.

The mechanics of causing damage to bulges, AA defense guns, Secondaries and a completely destroyed part of the ship have been changed. Now if they hit these areas, the ship will be dealt a guaranteed damage equal to 10% of the maximum damage of the shell or torpedo. The new mechanics will reduce the number of cases when, upon receipt of the “Penetration” ribbon, no damage to the ship’s HP was inflicted.

These changes will slightly increase the amount of damage received by almost all ships in the game, however, we do not expect that their lifetime will noticeably decrease. In case these mechanics have a strong influence, we will take measures and improve the combat characteristics of the affected ships.

After improving the mechanics, there will be only one option to get the ribbon "Penetration" without any damage - the explosion of a shell in the turrets of the Main Battery and causes damage only to the module of the ship, without affecting the overall HP. We are working on fixing this case.

Bulges will now be considered as a part of the ship’s armor, that can receive damage. To avoid illogical situations, we standardize their armor. Now they have a thickness not less than the hull of the bow or aft of the ship.

Please note that the information in the Development Blog is preliminary.

 

And now I'm questioning whether you even know what you are talking about.

Tell you what, though, the last time HE couldn't shatter and dealt full damage regardless of hit location this game was ironically a lot more dynamic and playing BBs actually required some intelligence as bow camping could and would get punished hard.

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Once again el2azer, thank you for proving in yet another thread that it is impossible to discuss anything with you due to the fact you do not listen to anyone other than yourself and that you are in fact, denser than concrete. There is no point in trying to discuss anything with you, so I will leave this here. I learned long ago not to argue with people such as yourself. Your mind will not be changed regardless of what others tell you.

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10 hours ago, LazyVegetable said:

Once again el2azer, thank you for proving in yet another thread that it is impossible to discuss anything with you due to the fact you do not listen to anyone other than yourself and that you are in fact, denser than concrete.

 

Let me get this straight.

your premise is this:

10 hours ago, LazyVegetable said:

Yes. HE shells no longer shatter, they will always deal 10% damage. Firing at angled enemies or hitting the belt on BBs which currently results in your shells shattering on impact and achieving a grand total of nothing will now always do 10% damage.

 

Whereas the actual change being tested is this:

On 10/15/2018 at 8:17 PM, Freyr_90 said:

ST. Improved penetration mechanics.

The mechanics of causing damage to bulges, AA defense guns, Secondaries and a completely destroyed part of the ship have been changed. Now if they hit these areas, the ship will be dealt a guaranteed damage equal to 10% of the maximum damage of the shell or torpedo. The new mechanics will reduce the number of cases when, upon receipt of the “Penetration” ribbon, no damage to the ship’s HP was inflicted.

These changes will slightly increase the amount of damage received by almost all ships in the game, however, we do not expect that their lifetime will noticeably decrease. In case these mechanics have a strong influence, we will take measures and improve the combat characteristics of the affected ships.

After improving the mechanics, there will be only one option to get the ribbon "Penetration" without any damage - the explosion of a shell in the turrets of the Main Battery and causes damage only to the module of the ship, without affecting the overall HP. We are working on fixing this case.

Bulges will now be considered as a part of the ship’s armor, that can receive damage. To avoid illogical situations, we standardize their armor. Now they have a thickness not less than the hull of the bow or aft of the ship.

Please note that the information in the Development Blog is preliminary.

 

*edit

Edited by xxTANK_Uxx
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10 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Let me get this straight.

your premise is this:

 

Whereas the actual change being tested is this:

 

*edit

My premise is what has been tested by myself and other players.

 

Clearly you have not tested this yourself.

 

 

https://www. twitch .tv/videos/330616731?t=2h0m52s

 

Watch that, and assuming you are capable of thought process, you should be able to understand why this is a problem.

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Seems like big changes, but I have no idea how this will affect meta. Maybe other major balance changes has to be made if this change is necessary... Depends what the devs intend. People are a bit to extreme in their conclusions imo. I checked Flamu stream for a brief moment yesterday and he wasn't positive about this.

 

I wait and see what comes of this.

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17 minutes ago, LazyVegetable said:

Watch that, and assuming you are capable of thought process, you should be able to understand why this is a problem.

 

Sure, it's a problem, but in an entirely different way.

Namely that

1. spaced armor isn't supposed to be included according to the patchnotes and

2. the inclusion of torp bulges is the only stupid thing about this change (as I have already stated above).

Try this on a GK e.g. instead and you will see nothing but the usual shatters (unless ofc this is actually some kind of bug, at which point there is nothing to worry about as it is not what the devs intend to do).

 

What the OP however demonstrates is something that is great. Secondary and AA mounts, which BBs are covered in, no longer soak up damage like nobodies business, making the most braindead class even more braindead.

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Hmmm... this'll just punish the BB drivers who push and/or put themselves in the line of fire. The usual mob who hang back won't notice any change really. Now the game mechanics are actually directly pushing people further and further away from the fight.

 

Same goes for the heavy cruisers that you could sometimes angle and shrug off a proportion of incoming fire. Again, now it just makes sense to hang back and lob HE at a distance. Which is really fun for all parties concerned.... not.

 

Not a great change in my opinion. It essentially means that 'tanky' ships are no longer able to take half as much damage as they would before (just spam the target with as many shells as possible) -  it removes the incentives for tanking damage and actually putting yourself in the line of fire. That's the very last thing this game needs.

 

4 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

 

See my reasoning above - this doesn't just stuff over BBs.

Edited by Gvozdika
Got out of bed the wrong side. Potentially inflammatory content removed. =)

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5 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

No they won't, because they are the ones who will want to win.

 

Exactly. Also, what has been said, would imply, that those ppl would know about the change of the mechanics. And to know about the change, you´d need to know and understand the current mechanics. Which a huge part of the playerbase simply dont... so yea. doesnt matter. Campers gonna camp. They´d camp even if you´d give Yamato 2 mil HP and 200 mm bow + deck armor.

 

Ontopic: Not sure whats surprising in that, Its exactly what the change has promised. I dont know, it sounds somewhat familiar but lets do this again: this is literally what ppl have been whining & asking about. Now they, once again, got their will.

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10 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Let me get this straight.

your premise is this:

 

Whereas the actual change being tested is this:

 

*edit

 

 

When common potatoes are tired of failing at the game, so decide that they want to fail at the forums as well.

:Smile_veryhappy:

 

[bracing for downvotes and accusations of toxicity]

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4 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Sure, it's a problem, but in an entirely different way.

Namely that

1. spaced armor isn't supposed to be included according to the patchnotes and

2. the inclusion of torp bulges is the only stupid thing about this change (as I have already stated above).

Try this on a GK e.g. instead and you will see nothing but the usual shatters (unless ofc this is actually some kind of bug, at which point there is nothing to worry about as it is not what the devs intend to do).

 

What the OP however demonstrates is something that is great. Secondary and AA mounts, which BBs are covered in, no longer soak up damage like nobodies business, making the most braindead class even more braindead.

Wrong.

 

This change will effectively punish BB players who push forward and put themselves in the firing line. Instead of making it a decision on what opponents to angle against to get the best opportunity to bounce their shells, you will always take damage no matter what. This is not okay. This inherently encourages firing HE by it's design simply because you will always deal damage and potentially set fires which can add up damage wise quite quickly. This entire change removes the incentive there currently is for going forward and tanking the damage.

 

I would seriously recommend looking further than the current 1 centimeter you are looking at now. This change is negative for the game in every way possible. There is not one thing about this change that can potentially benefit the game, only harm it.

 

Take the Moskva for example, it's a T10 very tanky cruiser, if you angle correctly against your opponent you can bounce a lot of shells, including those from battleships. You can extend your life quite a bit by simply knowing how to play and angling against the enemy while knowing which area of the ship to shoot for maximum damage.

 

With the changes we have seen in the test server, this will no longer be possible. You will take damage no matter what you do, this removes the entire purpose of armor.

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1 hour ago, Exocet6951 said:

[bracing for downvotes and accusations of toxicity] 

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but I had to upvote you :Smile_veryhappy:

 

14 minutes ago, LazyVegetable said:

Take the Moskva for example, it's a T10 very tanky cruiser, if you angle correctly against your opponent you can bounce a lot of shells, including those from battleships. You can extend your life quite a bit by simply knowing how to play and angling against the enemy while knowing which area of the ship to shoot for maximum damage. 

 

With the changes we have seen in the test server, this will no longer be possible. You will take damage no matter what you do, this removes the entire purpose of armor.

 

No? Moskva is one of the ships, that is hardly influenced  at all by this change. Also, with the recent 50mm buff to the bow, you dont really need to angle anymore. Trust me, I know what im speaking of. I tanked / angled like a madman for failteams with 25mm bow Moskva and only yesterday I watched my potential damage going in the millions, while just going almost straight bow-in towards a Kurfüst, Bismarck, Hindenburg and Republique. So easy these days. I got like 20k damage before they all died (not to me tho, Moskva doesnt have that DPM). Well, and got one report, meh, couldnt figure out which salty enemy it was.

 

 

 

 

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lest nerf battleships armor comrade. nerf every ship concealment except destroyers and lest add cruisers with 13.5 km deep water torps with torpedo booster consumable. also lets add a new broken ship class to the game that can be countered only by deep water bombs. balanced right? but hey this is what this retarded community is asking for, why the [edited]cant you be like the one from wot? why cant you suport all classes ( even some wot players want the old arty back and to be limited to only 1 ) why cant you ask for better matchmaking -1.+1, why cant you ask for new lines, for buffs, but NO WE WANT SUBMARINES, CHANGE CVS AND BUFF DESTROYERS WHILE NERFING EVERYTHING ELSE. and if this game gets worse by the time IT IS YOUR FAULT NOT WARGAMING. also this chance will make armor obsolete especialy space armor but hey if the [edited] want it we will do it.

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13 minutes ago, LazyVegetable said:

Wrong.

 

This change will effectively punish BB players who push forward and put themselves in the firing line. Instead of making it a decision on what opponents to angle against to get the best opportunity to bounce their shells, you will always take damage no matter what. This is not okay. This inherently encourages firing HE by it's design simply because you will always deal damage and potentially set fires which can add up damage wise quite quickly. This entire change removes the incentive there currently is for going forward and tanking the damage. 

 

I would seriously recommend looking further than the current 1 centimeter you are looking at now. This change is negative for the game in every way possible. There is not one thing about this change that can potentially benefit the game, only harm it. 

 

Take the Moskva for example, it's a T10 very tanky cruiser, if you angle correctly against your opponent you can bounce a lot of shells, including those from battleships. You can extend your life quite a bit by simply knowing how to play and angling against the enemy while knowing which area of the ship to shoot for maximum damage.

 

With the changes we have seen in the test server, this will no longer be possible. You will take damage no matter what you do, this removes the entire purpose of armor.

 

Ok srsly, i dont think you understand the change.

Moskva has torpedo bulges - below the water. No matter how long secondaries will pound his broadside, there wont be any difference from now to after the change.

Ofc Flamu took only ships which have torpedo bulges ABOVE water, and he deliberately shot the Hindi from behind. Hindi has Torpedobulges from the middle of the ship till after the back turrets. He could shoot the same place at the front turrets and would deal 0 damage.

 

Im not in favor of Torpedo bulges receiving damage, and its totaly stupid. Btw the Twitch clip where the secondaries kill the Henri - this only shows HOW STUPID the mechanics are:

1st the secondaries are shooting at a part of the ship where they deal 0 damage (like currently) which is ofc totaly retarded.

2nd now they change the mechanics so they will ALWAYS deal damage, which is also retarded.

 

And about your "HE shell always deals damage"

Go to testserver, take a Worcester without IFHE, shoot Yamato bow -> 0 damage. It still has 32mm armor and is not a torpedo bulge.

 

About the other changes:

Modules eating damage was always crap.

Torpedoes dealing 0 damage was totaly crap.

Saturated areas were mostly a problem for certain ships (like RN CLs) and i think they deserve a buff anyway - i would like to see that buff being one to survivabilty but meh....

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27 minutes ago, LazyVegetable said:

Wrong.

 

This change will effectively punish BB players who push forward and put themselves in the firing line. Instead of making it a decision on what opponents to angle against to get the best opportunity to bounce their shells, you will always take damage no matter what. This is not okay. This inherently encourages firing HE by it's design simply because you will always deal damage and potentially set fires which can add up damage wise quite quickly. This entire change removes the incentive there currently is for going forward and tanking the damage.

 

 

I'm 100% convinced that you could make BBs literally invulnerable to anything that's not itself a battleship, and BBabies would argue that they would get focused by BBs more, thus couldn't afford to push anymore.

100% unironic belief.

 

 

8 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Sorry to disappoint you, but I had to upvote you :Smile_veryhappy:

 

that-feel-when-you-dont-know-what-to-fee

 

:Smile_veryhappy:

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6 hours ago, LazyVegetable said:

With the changes we have seen in the test server, this will no longer be possible. You will take damage no matter what you do, this removes the entire purpose of armor.

 

HE shells will still shatter on contact with thick enough armor, which includes most deck/upper belt and all main belt armor. The damage they deal to destroyed modules is also going to be extremely pitiful.

According to you we should remove the superstructure as a damage zone because it is the one thing you can still take damage from when bow camping.

 

*edit

 

As for Moskva, nowadays you only need to bow camp with that too.

There is nothing skillful about bow camping. Braindead monkeys can pull it off as is proven in this game. All this change does is make these die a little faster assuming the torp bulges do not go through which they will not apparently.

Edited by xxTANK_Uxx
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