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loppantorkel

Old IJN dds are fine?

IJN dds  

152 members have voted

  1. 1. How do you view current state of high tier IJN dds (of the 'old' torp line)?

    • They are fine
      48
    • They need a buff
      93
    • They need a nerf
      1
    • Other
      10

145 comments in this topic

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Lots of complaints about IJN dds being underpowered the last few years and I also thought they often merely were food for the gun dds. So I decided to grind them and see for myself.

Kagero, Yugu and Shima played solo from April 2018 until now, 100 games in Shima, nearly 100 games combined in the other two. Captains used have been from 12-17 skill points. No RPF used. WR 59-64% for all.

 

Conclusion is that they are perfectly fine as they are. Stats show them in the lower part of WR but not by much and some other dds might be due for a slight nerf. IJN dds have also historically been the potato choice of dd for some (maybe weeb?) reason. They are very playable in Random battles when cvs are not in the game. Not all dds are suited for Ranked or CBs, just like some ships in other lines.

 

The buffed concealment was all it took to make IJN dds viable again.

 

Agree/disagree?

 

Edit: To clarify - It's only concerning the 'old' IJN dds - Kagero, Yugu and Shima. Not the new gun IJN dds that currently are tearing things up.

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[SM0KE]
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I might be tempted to go with 'other'; specifically (talking about all the torp boats, and gunboats up to T8, as that's what I have myself), I agree that in general terms they're fine, but I would like to see the warning times for their torps made a bit shorter, but not drastically so.

 

I also feel that the T8 gunboat should get DefAA, but that's hardly an original thought.

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[ASEET]
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I feel some of them have been powercreeped by the new DD lines and the amount of ships with radar. Tho I only have experience of the torpedo line up to Yugumo and none with the gunboat line.

 

So I vote "other"

 

 

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[TTT]
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Can't really say much about Kagero and Yugumo these days (been way too long since I played them), but imho the Shima is fine as it is right now. Is it the strongest T10 DD? No, I'd put it towards the lower end of the raw power spectrum, but it has a role, it has a few perks that make it somewhat interesting/unique (best concealment, decent speed, and ridiculous torp carpets). A ship doesn't need to be the strongest to be fine.

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[CATS]
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Depends on the ship:

  • Umikaze, more than fine
  • Wakatake is ok
  • Isokaze needs help
  • Minekaze is fine, Mutsuki could get some help to better fit into the "gun" line
  • Fubuki and Hatsu both need help
  • Shira is fine, Akatsuki could get slightly better stealth
  • Akizuki is more than fine, Kagero is ok-ish
  • Kita is more than fine, Yugumo needs help (shorter torpedo reload?)
  • Hara is more than fine, Shima needs help (shorter torpedo reload?)
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[CMP]
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They are still mostly fine ....

 

But they used to be much better.

 

 

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[POP]
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It's so much disheartening in many ways when you get spotted across an island in the cap by a TASM1 equipped Shima and then get blapped away by a single BB-salvo.

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[GOUF]
[GOUF]
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I don't have good stats with IJN torpedo boat line, made exception for HSF Harekaze, still I don't think they are in need for great buffs: I see players make wonders with them and, as Tyrendian89 correctly said, a ship doesn't need to be top of her class to be fine.

 

That said, considering that the line is about torpedo power, a slignt buff on torpedo reload time for Yugumo and Shima wouldn't be an outrage.

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[SCRUB]
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Yes they are mostly (depending on Ship) fine especially in the hands of a competent DD player, BUT that is in my opinion only

 

1- because they fill a completly other role unlike the gun + hybrid DDs because their main food are (dumb) BBs instead of enemy DDs

2- they are mostly very good at running away, either by kiting with convenient x+y backturrets and good shellarcs or by pure rather decent speed like the Shima.

 

It still is rather insulting though that this is supposed to be "the torpedo" line (which makes perfect sense from a historical point of view) while other DDs get way better torpedos in everything that isn't concerning pure damage per torp. (Which is kind of a pointless thing to have if you get way less hits) Which is also my main gripe i have with WG about the IJN DDs.

 

You want a few relaxing matches firing torps away at dumb BBs while hiding/running from DDs?

Go ahead play IJN DDs (see especially Asashio)

You want a competetive DD for more winorientated gamemodes that is able to carry more often than not? (in other forms than just racking up pure damage on fat ships)

Stay the heck away from the IJN (torp) DDs!

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[GURKA]
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1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

Lots of complaints about IJN dds being underpowered the last few years and I also thought they often merely were food for the gun dds. So I decided to grind them and see for myself.

Kagero, Yugu and Shima played solo from April 2018 until now, 100 games in Shima, nearly 100 games combined in the other two. Captains used have been from 12-17 skill points. No RPF used. WR 59-64% for all.

 

Conclusion is that they are perfectly fine as they are. Stats show them in the lower part of WR but not by much and some other dds might be due for a slight nerf. IJN dds have also historically been the potato choice of dd for some (maybe weeb?) reason. They are very playable in Random battles when cvs are not in the game. Not all dds are suited for Ranked or CBs, just like some ships in other lines.

 

The buffed concealment was all it took to make IJN dds viable again.

 

Agree/disagree?

 

Edit: To clarify - It's only concerning the 'old' IJN dds - Kagero, Yugu and Shima. Not the new gun IJN dds that currently are tearing things up.

IJN Torpedo dds should get a buff, at least the Shimakaze, while the Artillery destroyers are pretty good. So can't vote here, since you're speaking of "IJN dds" ^^

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2 minutes ago, Miessa3 said:

 

You want a few relaxing matches firing torps away at dumb BBs while hiding/running from DDs?

Go ahead play IJN DDs (see especially Asashio)

You want a competetive DD for more winorientated gamemodes that is able to carry more often than not? (in other forms than just racking up pure damage on fat ships)

Stay the heck away from the IJN (torp) DDs!

If I want to play a relaxing game in a DD than IJN is the last nation I pick.

It takes so much effort to play them right, unless you want to be completely useless and torp BBs, but well same can be done in any DD. 

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[BYOB]
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The midtier IJN destroyers have been power crept hard by new releases.

Akatsuki for example is outspotted by Jervis, Gadjah Mada, Z-39. The recent Mahan concealment buff made the spotting difference shrink to a paltry 170m. Which means she can be too easily countered if she isn't played at max range.

The lower tiers and the gun line from T8 up are ok. But there should be a concealment buff to the ships at mid tier. I haven't played the main line at T8 and up, so I can't comment on that.

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1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

Depends on the ship:

  • Umikaze, more than fine
  • Wakatake is ok
  • Isokaze needs help
  • Minekaze is fine, Mutsuki could get some help to better fit into the "gun" line
  • Fubuki and Hatsu both need help
  • Shira is fine, Akatsuki could get slightly better stealth
  • Akizuki is more than fine, Kagero is ok-ish
  • Kita is more than fine, Yugumo needs help (shorter torpedo reload?)
  • Hara is more than fine, Shima needs help (shorter torpedo reload?)

Meanwhile Kamikaze R and Shinonome are one of the best DDs in their tier

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1 minute ago, kfa said:

Meanwhile Kamikaze R and Shinonome are one of the best DDs in their tier

:fish_palm:

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[1DSF]
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I think the torps of the shimakaze could be a bit less visible.

Atm. i think the ships can see them a bit to early.

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[NWP]
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The problems with torpedo DD's are:

 

1) Optimum torpedo range of in between 6km to 7km has drastically been increased due to the appearance of lots of radar capable ships. If you have ever tried the short range torps in the Shima in the current meta you will have noticed that they are almost unplayable. Most torps will need to be dropped in between 9km and 12km thus greatly reducing their effectiveness.

 

2) Apperance of low concealment gunboat DD's have made torpedo DD's lives even more dangerous. If you want to torp capitcal ships you usually have to beat the enemy DD screen first (and then pray that the enemy does not turn tail and runs away). If you can not sufficiently outspot the gunboats (400 to 500m) than you will be hurt as much as they are, perhaps even more (if equally supported).

 

3) General concealment is too low. There is hardly a chance to detect enemy CA and BB behind an enemy DD screen unless you are spotted by the enemy DD and they shoot you (which is too late for the majority of DD players).

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Just because they're playable doesn't mean they are fine. Heck, the only reason why they're playable in the first place is because the majority of the playerbase is abysmal.

What do high tier IJN torp DDs do better than other DDs? The answer is straight up nothing. Their torps are bad, their guns are bad, their speed is nothing to write home about and while their concealment is good, they have nothing to exploit it which makes it a moot point.

 

If you want to play a torpboat, play Fletcher or Gearing.

If you want to gunboat, literally every other line will serve you better.

If you want to contest caps, German is the way to go.

If you want team utility, well, these have none. No DFAA, no hydro and standard smoke.

 

This line is completely obsolete and has been for a while. Why are they still popular then? Same reason why BBs are popular. They're easy to use and with all the potatoes running around they will reward you eventually no matter how often you have to fail beforehand.

In all my DD games I have yet to meet a situation in which I can honestly say "oh yeah, being a Shima would be good now". Because such a situation does not exist period.

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Depends on what you consider the old IJN  DD's. The pre-torpedo detection nerf or after that.

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Fubuki remains my favourite ship in the game, so I don't see her needing too much. Her torps are spotted easily but they don't send a postcard to say they're coming, like Ognevoi, and you can keep lots of fish in the water while staying in stealth. Confronting other DDs can be challenging, but you can lock down an entire flank by yourself, which is a pretty stong skill. 

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47 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Just because they're playable doesn't mean they are fine. Heck, the only reason why they're playable in the first place is because the majority of the playerbase is abysmal.

What do high tier IJN torp DDs do better than other DDs? The answer is straight up nothing. Their torps are bad, their guns are bad, their speed is nothing to write home about and while their concealment is good, they have nothing to exploit it which makes it a moot point.

 

If you want to play a torpboat, play Fletcher or Gearing.

If you want to gunboat, literally every other line will serve you better.

If you want to contest caps, German is the way to go.

If you want team utility, well, these have none. No DFAA, no hydro and standard smoke.

 

This line is completely obsolete and has been for a while. Why are they still popular then? Same reason why BBs are popular. They're easy to use and with all the potatoes running around they will reward you eventually no matter how often you have to fail beforehand.

In all my DD games I have yet to meet a situation in which I can honestly say "oh yeah, being a Shima would be good now". Because such a situation does not exist period.

Concealment is great, torps are good - plenty of them with good damage, guns are workable. If playerbase was better, these dds would be tougher to play, yes, but it's what it is. As so, the IJN torp dds are both playable and fine in current Random games. Decently fun too. Maybe not for all, but they are popular among the potatoes and are good enough to help teams win games. Do some other dds have higher potential to carry? Of course.

 

On thing that I'm wondering though in a tinfoil hat manner - Have you noticed that Shimas are grouped up in battles? I play some other dd and sure occasional Shima, but when I play Shima there can be 5-6 in single battles. Not just on one occasion either.... :cap_hmm:

 

48 minutes ago, Ubertron_X said:

The problems with torpedo DD's are:

 

1) Optimum torpedo range of in between 6km to 7km has drastically been increased due to the appearance of lots of radar capable ships. If you have ever tried the short range torps in the Shima in the current meta you will have noticed that they are almost unplayable. Most torps will need to be dropped in between 9km and 12km thus greatly reducing their effectiveness.

I've played with different set of torps, mostly 12k because they are more versatile. Dropped from within 6k when opportunity occurs. Like most other lines but Shima concealment helps out a lot to get close.

48 minutes ago, Ubertron_X said:

2) Apperance of low concealment gunboat DD's have made torpedo DD's lives even more dangerous. If you want to torp capitcal ships you usually have to beat the enemy DD screen first (and then pray that the enemy does not turn tail and runs away). If you can not sufficiently outspot the gunboats (400 to 500m) than you will be hurt as much as they are, perhaps even more (if equally supported).

48 minutes ago, Ubertron_X said:

3) General concealment is too low. There is hardly a chance to detect enemy CA and BB behind an enemy DD screen unless you are spotted by the enemy DD and they shoot you (which is too late for the majority of DD players).

I've played 200 of these battles without RPF in current meta - gun boats and radars. Still worked out fine. Will probably be even better now given the radar nerf.

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Shima is the most played ship in the game. That means meeting other ships of your kind is very probable.

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6 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Shima is the most played ship in the game. That means meeting other ships of your kind is very probable.

I know, but it doesn't mean all should meet when I'm in a Shima and less when I'm in another dd, should it? Hence the question if anyone else has noticed this.

Or did WG add this to MM..? don't remember..

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27 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

torps are good

 

Really?

I can often dodge these even when caught broadside (and that's the 12ers. I don't even want to talk about the 20km ones). The concealment and spread on these things is so ludicrously bad that your torp broadside weight becomes moot because you will rarely hit more than one or two if your target has any brains (although most of the playerbase doesn't). The F3 torps meanwhile require you to practically suicide with all the radar that's around. And if there's a CV you may as well quit to port.

Contrast that to Fletcher or Gearing where you can easily get multiple hits on a target when caught unaware. And they reload MUCH faster to boot.

So despite their theoretical torpedo power in reality other DDs are capable of causing much more damage with their torps. IJN DD torps are just straight up bad, there is nothing good about high alpha strike and flooding chance when you struggle to get them on target.

 

27 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

guns are workable

 

These are the worst DD guns in comparison to their contemporaries. That'd be fine if their torp power was scaled accordingly. Too bad it isn't.

Thus they have bad torps AND bad guns. You need at least one of these things to be good to exploit a good concealment rating in a DD. Since IJN torp DDs have neither, their best-in-class concealment automatically becomes moot. If I get outspotted in my Gearing by a Shima I don't turn away in fear. I only know that dinner will be served in another 2 seconds.

 

27 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Maybe not for all, but they are popular among the potatoes and are good enough to help teams win games.

 

More like making teams lose by default. I have seen more default losses caused by having more IJN DDs than I have seen default losses caused by CVs. I'm not even joking. See 3 Shimas on your side while the enemy has Grozo/Gearing/Z-52 and you may as well quit back to port. It isn't a question of whether other DDs have more potential match influence, it's that all of them do because all of them are good at something whereas IJN torp DDs are good at nothing.

@Saiyko can sing you songs about it.

These ships serve no role, they're bad and/or outclassed at everything they do. As such they cannot be characterized as fine. A Shima on your team in lieu of any other contemporary DD on the enemy side is a massive liability and nothing else.

 

And I guess making more and more low concealment, unpunishable BBs is fine because potatoes love to play them? I guess Lexington is fine despite getting bodied by any other T8 CV because she's popular in comparison?

Popularity has nothing to do with whether something is fine or not. In this game general popularity only points out which ships have the lowest skill floor and nothing else.

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