Developer Bulletin 0.7.11 - Discussion Thread

[Danucu_Tigger]

6 hours ago, Tuccy said:

If you are in a 1v1 situation against a full health DD, something went very wrong. Did your team disintegrate? Did you fail to support your cruisers and tank damage for them? Did the enemy DDs severely outplay your DDs? Did you decide to yolo on a flank yourself? DD is simply a counter to BB. BB is not supposed to be the ultimate invulnerable killer. And the game is not a 1v1 game. 

 

DD 6-7 km away is in range of your secondaries. If you suspect there is a DD nearby you should be preemptively changing course and speed all the time. So if you do the precautions, DD has serious issues planning his rush. Unless he plans to trade a ship for a ship (which is not the best trade - even low health DD can decide battle by capping). And you can guess where he is most likely to come from - that is unless this is a real 1v1 and there is none of your team left and you are in the middle of open ocean (in which case you are matched against your counter - which sucks, but I doubt you have the same concerns if it is say a cruiser against your BB, right?). It already limits angle from which the DD can come and gives you option to head towards friendlies, likely turning things into a tail chase. Tail chase gives you more time and allows you to steer the engagement towards your allies. It also gives you time to reload to HE, launch plane and further limit the angles he can come from at you. 

 

And yes, if it is a full health DD in 1v1 he has a good chance of sinking you. Same way you have a good chance of sinking any cruiser in 1v1. Or same as the cruiser has against that DD. But again, if it is 1v1 against your class counter, something went wrong.

 

Ok, Tucci, so this nerf tries to address long range devastating volleys from BBs to DDs. But I bet most DD players won't see it this way - if ever there was an excuse to yolo-torp this is it. And it won't improve TEAMPLAY.

 

The problem with DDs is that they are way overpowered at higher tiers (the simple fact that exceptions were created for Khabarovsk and Harugumo shows this) and have disproportionate effect on the game. Most have well over 20k-25k health, radar/hidro/torpedo reload booster. 

As a BB player I shouldn't expect to prioritize shooting DDs if everything goes smoothly (although my DD teammates would surely appreciate if I shaved off 40%health from the enemy DD they are facing, no?). However things change if a DD chases you or rushes you to yolo-torp.  You have to stop it and won't do it with the secondary battery alone.

Shooting DDs with BB guns is wasteful - before long you realize that you only scored 3-4 overpens in 4 salvos during nearly 3 minutes of game

 

And trading a DD for a BB is favorable in most games.   

 

What about DD gunboating? What's the counter against DDs staying at 12+km spamming away HE at BBs? Khabarovsk and Harugumo aren't the only ones. 

And please don't give me that "you must have done something wrong" lecture. Most of the times the teamplay level is abysmal.

 

Suggested additional fixes:

- increase BB&CA secondary battery range and accuracy at low ranges in order to discourage yolo-torp runs.

- set historically acurate number of torpedoes for each ship. (or at least eliminate gimmicks like torpedo reload booster) This should make DD captains play more responsible and make each torpedo count.   

 

 

[ColonelPete]

13 minutes ago, Danucu_Tigger said:

And trading a DD for a BB is favorable in most games.  

• on average there are less DD in a match than BB
• on average a good number of these DD get sunk in the first minutes
• trading one of the few remaining DD or even your only remaining DD against one of the MANY remaining BB of the enemy is a very bad idea
• when yoloing DD on high tier maps are a problem, the problem lies not with the game mechanics
• many DD get sunk on mid range during the time radar is on, now imagine how long it takes to sink DD at close range....

[malaquey]

Something did need to be done about full pens but I definitely have concerns:

 

First of all this is an unequal nerf to certain ships. The battlecruisers in particular (graf spee, stalingrad etc) will be adversely affected since their HE is pretty woeful. Will ships that are affected be buffed somehow or will they slip like the zao did when stealth fire was removed?

 

This is also a general buff to DDs, as well as having more health generally because each hit they will also be able to take on battleships with less risk. I'm not inherently opposed to either of these but these changes will both have effects on balance of destroyers. Will this lead to destroyers being too powerful (probably not), or perhaps overall lead to destroyers being a bit weaker elsewhere as part of general balance?

 

I feel that the issue has always been that it is simply not worth switching to HE in a battleship. Even if the destroyer is still spotted in 30 seconds the damage is very low since targets saturate so easily. As well as implementing this change what if WG also added a damage modifer to HE shells from the same large calibre guns when striking a destroyer. If someone has succesfully loaded their HE in a yamato and actually hit the target there should be some reward rather than just doing similar damage to overpens. Has WG considered buffing the HE damage of BBs vs DDs at all? Or even just removing saturation for destor

 

 

As a separate issue I am also confused by the changes to hitting AA mounts and spaced armour. Was this issue not that the damage ribbons were giving erroneous information as opposed to the damage actually being inflicted incorrectly? Why not just fix the damage ribbons to correctly say the armour was not penetrated instead of making non damaging hits actually deal damage?

[t0ffik1]

8 hours ago, Tuccy said:

If you are in a 1v1 situation against a full health DD, something went very wrong. Did your team disintegrate? Did you fail to support your cruisers and tank damage for them? Did the enemy DDs severely outplay your DDs? Did you decide to yolo on a flank yourself? DD is simply a counter to BB. BB is not supposed to be the ultimate invulnerable killer. And the game is not a 1v1 game. 

 

DD 6-7 km away is in range of your secondaries. If you suspect there is a DD nearby you should be preemptively changing course and speed all the time. So if you do the precautions, DD has serious issues planning his rush. Unless he plans to trade a ship for a ship (which is not the best trade - even low health DD can decide battle by capping). And you can guess where he is most likely to come from - that is unless this is a real 1v1 and there is none of your team left and you are in the middle of open ocean (in which case you are matched against your counter - which sucks, but I doubt you have the same concerns if it is say a cruiser against your BB, right?). It already limits angle from which the DD can come and gives you option to head towards friendlies, likely turning things into a tail chase. Tail chase gives you more time and allows you to steer the engagement towards your allies. It also gives you time to reload to HE, launch plane and further limit the angles he can come from at you. 

 

And yes, if it is a full health DD in 1v1 he has a good chance of sinking you. Same way you have a good chance of sinking any cruiser in 1v1. Or same as the cruiser has against that DD. But again, if it is 1v1 against your class counter, something went wrong.

 

range of 2nderis means nothing as tier 10 dd's have romulan cloacking device + smoke. So your 2nderies in 90% or more cases are useless vs them, and even then with full 2ndery build (what means you will get annihiled by DD HE fire  or Cruiser HE fire) will make your 2nderies hit few times doing maybe 1-2k dmg max before he will yolo you and instagib you.

Currently DD's are the highest WR on every tier span!, and you guys make them into invoulnuralbe killing machines of every ships that (in some cases) are even immune to CV's via AA consumable.

You still didnt answered my question - as there with this change there isnt a chance he will kill me 1 on 1 but there is a 100% chance he will kill me and not die. (where i dont see bb's being so hard countering to Ca's, or Ca's to DD's).
So im waiting for your answer to how i have a chance of killing that DD when he AFK BOTS yolo rushes me (as math dmg counting, my chance is only if he doesnt fire EVER HIS TORPS - and this isnt a possible situation). 

 

This change (as you guys insted of fixing mutli overpen bug ONLY) made DD"s into invoulnurable killing machines of BB's allowing BB's 0 counter play! With current close range accuracy bb wont even be able to take with AVARAGE rng a 1/3 to 1/4th of a DD's HP pool. via salvo (ofc excluding CONQ HE). So WHAT IS A REAL COUNTERPLAY option for a BB, just like Destoryers have a counter play option to dodge/survive radar and cruisers, cruisers have a option to escape/dodge BB's and their shells. As in a half assed or better balanced game every class has a counter play option to any other class (even if the one is supposed to counter it).

 

And if you dont believe me we can meet in training room and i guarantee that with this change i will kill you every time while taking basicly almost 0 dmg at it by AFK yolo rushing you and it wont be possible to get such a score with any other class battles

[ColonelPete]

7 minutes ago, t0ffik1 said:

Currently DD's are the highest WR on every tier span!, and you guys make them into invoulnuralbe killing machines of every ships that (in some cases) are even immune to CV's via AA consumable.

Oh really? In which game is that?

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20181020/eu_2month/average_ship.html

[t0ffik1]

1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

Oh really? In which game is that?

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20181020/eu_2month/average_ship.html

in this 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20181027/eu_week/average_class.html  (it seems you dont know what class means) - ah sorry ofc excluding CV's what arent rly in a represintative pool compared to other classes

[Danucu_Tigger]

56 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

• on average there are less DD in a match than BB
• on average a good number of these DD get sunk in the first minutes
• trading one of the few remaining DD or even your only remaining DD against one of the MANY remaining BB of the enemy is a very bad idea
• when yoloing DD on high tier maps are a problem, the problem lies not with the game mechanics
• many DD get sunk on mid range during the time radar is on, now imagine how long it takes to sink DD at close range....

They just set the max number of DDs per team at 4, so I am a little skeptical about your first statement. Check the game rules and see how many points you gain/loose for sinking / losing a BB and a DD respectively - trading a DD for a BB is definitely worth it. 

 

 

[ColonelPete]

10 minutes ago, t0ffik1 said:

in this 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20181027/eu_week/average_class.html  (it seems you dont know what class means) - ah sorry ofc excluding CV's what arent rly in a represintative pool compared to other classes

Which basicly makes your orginal statement untrue as you have to ignore CV.

 

7 minutes ago, Danucu_Tigger said:

They just set the max number of DDs per team at 4, so I am a little skeptical about your first statement. Check the game rules and see how many points you gain/loose for sinking / losing a BB and a DD respectively - trading a DD for a BB is definitely worth it.

Ship distribution from may to now (Tier VI+)

Blue line is DD.

 

If you lose by that point difference or less, yes, you are right. Now consider how often that happens.

A team loses more ships and points if it has no DD to spot, torp or cap, but the enemy team has.

[piet11111]

@Tuccy What if this new every penetration always dealing damage system will end up punishing BB's way too much ?

Torpedo bulges especially seem like a gigantic weakspot for death by a thousand papercuts or am i misunderstanding this system ?

[malaquey]

59 minutes ago, piet11111 said:

@Tuccy What if this new every penetration always dealing damage system will end up punishing BB's way too much ?

Torpedo bulges especially seem like a gigantic weakspot for death by a thousand papercuts or am i misunderstanding this system ?

I'm concerned about this exact point. You failed to damage the target but still get 10% damage? Some ships like the Henri IV and many BBs are covered in very thin spaced armour like this and will almost always get overpenned regardless of where the shell hits. I just don't understand why this of all solutions is what they go with, just fix the ribbons so if it pens a module/spaced armour but not the hull it returns a shatter instead of messing with damage and be extension balance.

[Cammo1962]

On ‎10‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 2:31 PM, The_EURL_Guy said:

We invite you to visit the Public Test server and familiarize yourself with the Update 0.7.11 Bulletin!

 

Read the full article

 

Get ready for the Public Test

Again you on WOW nerf the BBs, but in real life you could kill a DD with AP´s. And why dont you look at cruisers with radars that can look through mountains that is unrealistic. And before anyone "kills" me i am both a DD and BB player.

[Heatcore]

need work on the game balancing!!!!! so many *edited* players do nothing formed a team..... and just keep losing....

[Barbarossa36]

On 11/2/2018 at 12:47 AM, Heatcore said:

need work on the game balancing!!!!! so many *edited* players do nothing formed a team..... and just keep losing....

[antean]

5 hours ago, piet11111 said:

@Tuccy What if this new every penetration always dealing damage system will end up punishing BB's way too much ?

Torpedo bulges especially seem like a gigantic weakspot for death by a thousand papercuts or am i misunderstanding this system ?

 

4 hours ago, malaquey said:

I'm concerned about this exact point. You failed to damage the target but still get 10% damage? Some ships like the Henri IV and many BBs are covered in very thin spaced armour like this and will almost always get overpenned regardless of where the shell hits. I just don't understand why this of all solutions is what they go with, just fix the ribbons so if it pens a module/spaced armour but not the hull it returns a shatter instead of messing with damage and be extension balance.

 

3 hours ago, Cammo1962 said:

Again you on WOW nerf the BBs, but in real life you could kill a DD with AP´s. And why dont you look at cruisers with radars that can look through mountains that is unrealistic. And before anyone "kills" me i am both a DD and BB player.

Hasn't anyone figured out that WG keeps overreacting?

All these continual 'tweaks' are nonsense.

 Let's limit what class the players play & we will nerf BBs to account for that latest WG overreaction.

SNAFU & FUBAR (again).

 

 

[ColonelPete]

9 hours ago, Cammo1962 said:

Again you on WOW nerf the BBs, but in real life you could kill a DD with AP´s. 

And you still can in the game...

[FoxtrotOscar_]

13 hours ago, Danucu_Tigger said:

 

- set historically acurate number of torpedoes for each ship. (or at least eliminate gimmicks like torpedo reload booster) This should make DD captains play more responsible and make each torpedo count.   

 

 

Oh really, are we playing the "historical" card again? You want historical, let's go historical:

- Let's nerf BB hit rates down to their historical figures. 5% seems reasonable. 

- Let's give BBs their historical acceleration. A stationary Colorado for example should take 20mins to reach full speed. 

- Let's give DDs 10 spawns and CA\CLs 5 spawns per match to represent their much lower industrial costs to produce and operate compared to BBs.

- Since we are giving DDs "historical" number of torpedo uses, lets remove the arbitrary stats and make them more historical ie. no detectability range and powerful enough to render almost all ships combat incapable after 1\2 hits. 

- Let's also implement module damage ie. a few overpens to the superstructure can render your BB combat incapable by destroying your vital systems such as radar and fire control. 

 

And I could keep going all day long...

 

[hallomann32]

@FoxtrotOscar_ then lets give DDs back citadels 

10 minutes ago, FoxtrotOscar_ said:

 

- Let's give DDs 10 spawns and CA\CLs 5 spawns per match to represent their much lower industrial costs to produce and operate compared to BBs.

- Since we are giving DDs "historical" number of torpedo uses, lets remove the arbitrary stats and make them more historical ie. no detectability range and powerful enough to render almost all ships combat incapable after 1\2 hits. 

- Let's also implement module damage ie. a few overpens to the superstructure can render your BB combat incapable by destroying your vital systems such as radar and fire control. 

1st. the "Fleet composition" which is i think the point you wanted to go with is somewhat represented ingame already

 

2nd no Detectability means you can spot a DD from 14km+.....FeelsGoodMan, you spoke about accuracy but disregard it for DDs GG my boi

 

3rd again disregarding accuracy again GG my boialso if you are at it why not give DDs back its citadel ? 

[FoxtrotOscar_]

10 minutes ago, hallomann32 said:

 

1st. the "Fleet composition" which is i think the point you wanted to go with is somewhat represented ingame already

 

That's not what I meant and I clearly stated the industrial differences. Even if that was what I meant, we don't even have that in the game. For a historical composition you are going to need 18-24 DDs per team which is no where near 2-5 we currently have. 

 

And yeah, let's give DDs citadels. I'd pay 100 bucks to watch you try and hit a DD's citadel from 14km away with that 5% hit rate, historical fire rate and historical shell travel time. 

 

Also, since we are going full historical let's give the CVs their full potential. I bet it's gonna be fun for your team's BB to sit on his rear end 50-300km away from the action, escorting a carrier group while enemy BB is getting absolutely rekt by 100-300 planes. 

[NothingButTheRain]

22 hours ago, Tuccy said:

If you are in a 1v1 situation against a full health DD, something went very wrong. Did your team disintegrate? Did you fail to support your cruisers and tank damage for them? Did the enemy DDs severely outplay your DDs? Did you decide to yolo on a flank yourself? DD is simply a counter to BB. BB is not supposed to be the ultimate invulnerable killer. And the game is not a 1v1 game. 

 

DD 6-7 km away is in range of your secondaries. If you suspect there is a DD nearby you should be preemptively changing course and speed all the time. So if you do the precautions, DD has serious issues planning his rush. Unless he plans to trade a ship for a ship (which is not the best trade - even low health DD can decide battle by capping). And you can guess where he is most likely to come from - that is unless this is a real 1v1 and there is none of your team left and you are in the middle of open ocean (in which case you are matched against your counter - which sucks, but I doubt you have the same concerns if it is say a cruiser against your BB, right?). It already limits angle from which the DD can come and gives you option to head towards friendlies, likely turning things into a tail chase. Tail chase gives you more time and allows you to steer the engagement towards your allies. It also gives you time to reload to HE, launch plane and further limit the angles he can come from at you. 

 

And yes, if it is a full health DD in 1v1 he has a good chance of sinking you. Same way you have a good chance of sinking any cruiser in 1v1. Or same as the cruiser has against that DD. But again, if it is 1v1 against your class counter, something went wrong.

 

If you are in a 1v1 situation against a full health DD and the DD player got spotted, something went very wrong for the DD and he should be punished for it.

DD is already a full counter to BB and the DD armor and heals are the DDs speed and particularly its conceilment.

 

A DD isn't even supposed to get spotted anyway in a 1v1 engagement with a BB, right?

[hallomann32]

2 hours ago, FoxtrotOscar_ said:

That's not what I meant and I clearly stated the industrial differences. Even if that was what I meant, we don't even have that in the game. For a historical composition you are going to need 18-24 DDs per team which is no where near 2-5 we currently have. 

 

And yeah, let's give DDs citadels. I'd pay 100 bucks to watch you try and hit a DD's citadel from 14km away with that 5% hit rate, historical fire rate and historical shell travel time. 

 

Also, since we are going full historical let's give the CVs their full potential. I bet it's gonna be fun for your team's BB to sit on his rear end 50-300km away from the action, escorting a carrier group while enemy BB is getting absolutely rekt by 100-300 planes. 

oof 

 

m8 sorry to tell you but you just lost it 

[Admiral_Von_Poopypants]

FFS WG, stop making changes to things that don't need to be changed - the biggest issue in the game is the OP radar mechanic you somehow fail to see an issue with, and somehow can't fix radar detecting a ship through islands.  no wait, multiple [edited]islands - Is it that difficult to tie radar into using the mechanic that already exists to spot ships??

The biggest cancer in the game, especially for DD's is the "remove fog of war and expose everything" button   -   so instead of actually fixing the game - the right move is to [edited]DD's more and more by introducing 20 more radar ships, and now nerf BB's to somehow try and make dd play better.   WAKE THE [edited]UP.  FIX THE [edited]RADAR!!!!!!!!

[ColonelPete]

19 minutes ago, Psycd said:

FFS WG, stop making changes to things that don't need to be changed -

... you are just ignoring years of posts of the playerbase....

[Admiral_Von_Poopypants]

1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

... you are just ignoring years of posts of the playerbase....

me or Wargaming????????  seems more like wargaming ignores years of posts by the playerbase....

[ColonelPete]

6 minutes ago, Psycd said:

me or Wargaming????????  seems more like wargaming ignores years of posts by the playerbase....

No, they just doing what players asked for.....

[radius77]

I don't get the whine about DDs being more resistent againt large caliber AP. What it promotes is that BBs should also use brain sometimes and adapt to use HE if nedeed.   

 

DDs stll are a class with very high skill ceiling. There is a lot of of low concealment CA/CLs, radars and maps become more and more corridors loaded with Worcester/DM/Moskva/Stalingrad/Krohnstadt behind each rock.

But sure, if someone is a f.... lazy Yamato camper that gets caught "sniping" from line 10 ... well - it's not a reason to delete with AP a smart Shima that made an effort to sneak up.