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Viravandrel

Top tier matches don't feel like ships anymore

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To me the T5 ranked really solidified how much better mid-tier gameplay is. People move, less sitting around, ship speeds are higher relative to map size.

 

I especially dislike the jerking around islands, and how some ship types are so dependent on it. I have my Des Moines, Cleveland etc. also, and virtually never play them, because it's so oppressively boring. Boring to play, boring to play against. F*** that bullsh*t.

 

Le Terrible, despite her many shortcomings, has felt like a breath of fresh air, because it rewards that active, open water roaming play style. 

 

 

 

 

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This game situation with camping, reversing etc is all result of WG puting many radars and DD's into game. If someone you wanna blame for this campfest, blame WG.

I understand that some players dont wanna go Kamikaze-style, IF you dont get team support you was counting on. On the other hand, there are more and more noobs into game as many players have at least 1 tier 10 ship.

Overall the problem is in all that combined.

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I prefer T7, I think it's the last tier before the campfest gets bring. I rarely play my Conq anymore.

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Anymore? It's been like this since at least Closed Beta.

 

T9 and T10 cruisers and BBs are so sluggish that it's not worth it trying to maneuver your ship. Bow-on to the enemy and shoot. And if you need to open distance you reverse, because if you try to U-turn you get obliterated by fast-reloading über-accurate guns.

 

T8 ships would still be playable if it wasn't for the constant tier 10 games. After T7 this game is mostly rubbish.

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Those that don't like the suggestion of having Cits cause less damage: why do you think everyone camps at T8 up and go toe to toe in T5 and down? Because you don't get insta deleted when a BB catches you with your citadel exposed. TTK in lower tiers is so much longer, so people try a lot more. Also range is less of an issue cause most T2-5 ships don't have the range to go camping. In the high tiers most BBs have 20+ km range, while a lot of cruisers have to do with a lot less. And that while cruisers in lower tiers can take more of a beating than in the top tiers respectively. 

 

So yes, I think if you lower the citadel damage of BB shells on other BBs and CA/CLs, you'll find that it will draw out more willing cap pushers, resulting in lots more close quarter fights to happen, as they don't fear getting 1-shotted after showing themselves in the open.

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5 hours ago, JapLance said:

Anymore? It's been like this since at least Closed Beta.

 

T9 and T10 cruisers and BBs are so sluggish that it's not worth it trying to maneuver your ship. Bow-on to the enemy and shoot. And if you need to open distance you reverse, because if you try to U-turn you get obliterated by fast-reloading über-accurate guns.

 

T8 ships would still be playable if it wasn't for the constant tier 10 games. After T7 this game is mostly rubbish.

Tier 9 and 10 cruisers sluggish? Ibuki, Roon, Donskoi, Saint-Louis, Zao, Des Moines, Wooster, Minotaur, Hindenburg (with rudder mod of course), Henri....

You also get heal, most of them have torps for decent ranges. And a lot of the cruisers at the tier 9/10 bracket have very good concealment stats. Oh and did I mention def. AA? Hydro and radar are also quite useful if used correctly.

 

Yes, broadsiding is a very risky thing to do. But that also means that one made an error when engaging the red team. That will be punished.

Map awareness, your own positioning and not to overextend is far more important at higher tiers. 

 

5 hours ago, FukushuNL said:

So yes, I think if you lower the citadel damage of BB shells on other BBs and CA/CLs, you'll find that it will draw out more willing cap pushers, resulting in lots more close quarter fights to happen, as they don't fear getting 1-shotted after showing themselves in the open.

Why? This will encourage even more potato/yolo play. At tier 9/10 you really need to know the strengths and weaknesses of the ships you play with (angling, concealment etc.). Asking for more buffs is ridiculous imo, BB's already got the buffbandage by lowering the citadels.  

 

With domination, at the start of the game, look what is viable what to contest and what not. And maybe, maybe, it is handy to use the ingame communication (commander rose, chat)

 

Top tier gameplay is meant to be more competitive and more intense. 

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46 minutes ago, JapLance said:

Anymore? It's been like this since at least Closed Beta.

 

T9 and T10 cruisers and BBs are so sluggish that it's not worth it trying to maneuver your ship. Bow-on to the enemy and shoot. And if you need to open distance you reverse, because if you try to U-turn you get obliterated by fast-reloading über-accurate guns.

 

T8 ships would still be playable if it wasn't for the constant tier 10 games. After T7 this game is mostly rubbish.

 

T7 is getting as bad now... had a few games yesterday and it seems that the disease infecting the higher tier games is spreading... If WG do not design a cure this game will hemorrhage the good players and be left with nothing but the garbage.

After the games I had over this weekend... it just simply isn't any fun at the minute...

 

I primarily play DD... you sail to cap or spot and looking at your mini map you see absolutely no support... or you get abuse because you will not commit suicide.. see the comments I have had to put up with in some games because I cannot push...

 

Screenshot (399).png

Screenshot (385).png

Screenshot (369).png

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9 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

I primarily play DD... you sail to cap or spot and looking at your mini map you see absolutely no support... or you get abuse because you will not commit suicide.. see the comments I have had to put up with in some games because I cannot push...

 

 

 

Like I said before, look at where your team is and who can support you.

And from judging from what I see from the screenshots, you positioned yourself very bad.

 

The comments; welcome to the internetz (not that I endorse that in anyway)

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12 hours ago, SBS said:

I agree. One of the reasons I do not like high tiers and are not really trying to grind to tier 10, is that it just feels like WoT 2.0

 

And I agree that Citadels are a problem. They soo much discourage attacking/maneuver warfare as people are very likely to just receive a random citadel. Especially cruisers, who can do everything right, and still get a random citadel on them, even when are not showing broadside. And the whole citadel system has nothing to do with aiming well or shooting well, as you can do everything wrong and still get a citadel just because of RNG dispersion, just like you can do everything right and get none.

 

In my opinions, citadels are just like the detonation mechanic. Complete RNG. At least with detonation, I can use flags.

 

Then again, citadel isn't the only thing that makes it play like WoT. Things like overmatch/auto bounce mechanics also make it way too similair. Like let the ships go broadside and fire volleys like they would in real life.

I am not asking for a historically accurate simulator, just want it to feel like a ship at least.

I have a problem with what you mention here.

 

You mention that citadels are a problem and it makes you not like high tier matches and high tier matches feel like WoT.

But the citadels don't change in any significant way to warrant your complaint about citadels in high tier matches due to the fact that going from mid tier to high tier, citadels don't actually change that much. If anything, citadels on some ships in high tiers are actually harder to hit.

 

Since citadels don't change in any significant way when viewed from your perspective, what would be the real reason that high tier matches are, according to you, less fun to play?

 

I think your given reasons are invalid.

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12 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

 

T7 is getting as bad now... had a few games yesterday and it seems that the disease infecting the higher tier games is spreading... If WG do not design a cure this game will hemorrhage the good players and be left with nothing but the garbage.

After the games I had over this weekend... it just simply isn't any fun at the minute...

 

I primarily play DD... you sail to cap or spot and looking at your mini map you see absolutely no support... or you get abuse because you will not commit suicide.. see the comments I have had to put up with in some games because I cannot push...

 

1st picture;  Nice island hugers you got there.

2nd picture;  On that Sleeping Giant map if you are alone you just wasting time while you can help your team on C cap to push C and cap toward B pushing.

Dont expect support on that B objective on that map.

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17 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

 

Screenshot (369).png

Not to sound much like a jackass, but a 14pt captain on a tier X ship (a Gearing is also kinda difficult to play with, because you need to get either upclose to utilize your dpm and there is no healparty) is a bit of liability :Smile_unsure: 

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6 minutes ago, LeSnoet said:

Like I said before, look at where your team is and who can support you.

And from judging from what I see from the screenshots, you positioned yourself very bad.

 

The comments; welcome to the internetz (not that I endorse that in anyway)

There was no support from the outset.. I was asked to go to A but had to turn when radar pinged me and I realised the Grosse and Lion were heading away .. there were 2 other DD's for C who would not commit because they were getting no help..

5 minutes ago, Hades_warrior said:

1st picture;  Nice island hugers you got there.

2nd picture;  On that Sleeping Giant map if you are alone you just wasting time while you can help your team on C cap to push C and cap toward B pushing.

Dont expect support on that B objective on that map.

1. Island hugging seems to be the norm.

2. At game start I was instructed to go A, which I did and then capped. My position in B reflects my attempt to cap B after A. Nobody moved to support any DD's and the screenshot reflects where they stayed most of the game.

 

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15 hours ago, Viravandrel said:

Hello!

 

not a rant in any way, just an observation. For quite some time already the high tier matches started to look like WoT- people hug islands, BBs are standing still or reversing (cruisers usually do the same), everyone camps and try to stay at range in fear of being shot to bits in seconds (damage on high tiers is pretty high :P ). For me the game stops looking like ships anymore, it totally lost it's maneuverability, ships do not act like in reality- they do not go forward and trade salvoes, the battle lost all of it's dynamics, it's just slow and painful grinding to death. I know it's the most effective way of playing (well, I do that myself...) but the longer I play like that I start asking myself a question- Do I even wanna play like this? I can easily switch to tanks and play like this there... or maybe ill just stay on lower tiers although it starts to look like this in mid tiers as well...

 

proposed solution (easy and simple):

- increase the accuracy of shells fired at targets moving 1/4 or slower (well... it's EASIER to hit stationary target- game should reflect that...)- for example halve the dispersion or increase sigma

- decrease the damage of citadel hits while keeping the penetration damage the same - the reason why nobody in this game even tries to play normal ship dodge game (as it should be- it was like this in reality) is that whenever you try to dodge BBs hit you in the citadel and you're toast. 

 

I think that those simple changes would force players to change their behavior in a good way- the battle would start to look like a ship battle again, not some tank camper fest. 

 

I'm ready to hear your thoughts on this matter guys- maybe you're tired of camping too? Maybe you got better solutions, i'll gladly hear some other

So I had a read in this topic, since it seemed to have gathered quite a bit of attention.

 

WoT removed a lot of bushes to make playstyle more dynamic (i.e. less campy). They turned maps into roflstomp brawling corridors instead of the more positional gameplay that WoT used to have years back before the massive deforestation began.

They even wanted to turn Prohorovka into a brawling map with a line of rocks running through the middle of the map (at 90 degrees angle witn the railway) but it didn't went live because of public outcry.

 

So frankly, how you compare WoWS becomming more campy with WoT is really weird. Because WoT didn't become more campy, it actually became more dynamic, with lots of brawling galleries and pre-determined gameplay. Every single rooftop, every rock was put in place for a specific purpose (often to prevent sniping, so you had to come closer in order to start more brawling) and the gameplay that was left was what made me leave there.

 

It's just not fun anymore.

 

Personally I think it's more the high tier maps that are the problem. The most fun maps are all in the more lower tiers and the higher tier maps tend to be more open.

 

People don't want to push because a mistake is more deadly, so people tend to start playing it more safe.

In mid tiers you can evade catastrophy by getting out of a sticky situation and there's a bit less freedom of movement due to more and larger landmasses, which prevent areas from becoming torp soup and make escaping hazardous situations more easy.

 

The way you present your case makes it sound like camping is the problem. It is not the problem, it's actually that what makes people "kemp harder" and that is the map design in high tiers (much more open) and the more deadly and accurate weaponry (torp soup and more accurate main guns).

 

And forcing player behavior is what made WoT so frustrating, as it leaves you with no incentive to move at your own accord. You have to because the maps don't give you any other choice.

 

If anything, your proposed changes will actually make WoWS more like WoT, not less.

WoWS don't need your change, mid tier gameplay is more fun and has the same mechanics.

 

Sorry to have to disagree with you.

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15 minutes ago, LeSnoet said:

Not to sound much like a jackass, but a 14pt captain on a tier X ship (a Gearing is also kinda difficult to play with, because you need to get either upclose to utilize your dpm and there is no healparty) is a bit of liability :Smile_unsure: 

I have levelled 2 captains to 19 on Gearing and this is my third..  I know how to play Gearing and have the legendary upgrade equipped.

I have 71 knot torpedoes and 5.6km concealment.. I know my enemy ships so very rarely get detected with radar, hydro or by other DD's.. and I am always ready to run because I can regroup and return.

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14 minutes ago, LeSnoet said:

Not to sound much like a jackass, but a 14pt captain on a tier X ship (a Gearing is also kinda difficult to play with, because you need to get either upclose to utilize your dpm and there is no healparty) is a bit of liability :Smile_unsure: 

 

Then pay him doubloons so he can train his captain to YOUR standarts... I have 3 Tier X ships and only one of them has a 19 points captain.

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3 minutes ago, Mandalorianer said:

 

Then pay him doubloons so he can train his captain to YOUR standarts... I have 3 Tier X ships and only one of them has a 19 points captain.

Ehm why? Playing tier X is a choice, not mandatory.

 

And he already said that this is 3rd Gearing captain. The rest of his comment tells me he has a clue what he is doing :cap_like:

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Just now, LeSnoet said:

Ehm why? Playing tier X is a choice, not mandatory.

 

As is using a 14 points captain

 

 

1 minute ago, LeSnoet said:

And he already said that this is 3rd Gearing captain

 

We posted the exact same moment...DUH!

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25 minutes ago, LeSnoet said:

Not to sound much like a jackass, but a 14pt captain on a tier X ship (a Gearing is also kinda difficult to play with, because you need to get either upclose to utilize your dpm and there is no healparty) is a bit of liability :Smile_unsure: 

What kind of BS is that? I should be playing my 2 premiums permanently just to finally get a lvl 19 captain before I am allowed in TX? I play now quite some games for quite a while, and I have a total of one lvl 19 captain and 4 TX ships. 

And am I allowed to play my Musashi without a 19 point captain? Or should I only use low tier premiums to train captains? And not to mention, how many premium US DDs do you think I have? (Hint: Answer is one, the T2 one).

 

Gearing really needs a 10 point captain. After that you already get to the nice to have area, and not the required area. 

 

13 hours ago, Viravandrel said:

I know that the possibility is slim, but still possibilities for other things in this world also had small chances but sometimes they were achieved. 

 

I think that if my solutions are not good enough, then I would sit best players of this game (OMNI, TTT or whatever other ridiculously good players) and give them simple task to answer the question- HOW TO MAKE THE SHIPS MOVE IN THIS GAME? let them think about it. All the best battles i saw were those in which whole team kept moving around the map, not sitting in one place and grinding damage...

I don't think it will be too useful to ask the best players. Simply because they know what to do. They will often play with their team, and will get support. The issue is the average player. I think the proposal to link dispersion to target speed is good (although I wouldn't put a hard limit, just the faster you go, the worse the incoming dispersion will be).

And on one hand I understand people want that those who show broadside get punished. But the result is that also in a BB if I push, I probably won't have team bringing alot of support, so I have to disengage or get burned down. Going into concealment is unlikely, breaking and reversing is too late by then (and unwanted imo), so unless there is an island I can hide behind, I have to turn, and during turn I will show broadside. Obviously you will try to time it, but that won't work perfect either. 

 

Now someone will tell me I screwed up and should git gud. Fine, then I won't make the mistake of showing broadside again. I'll stay bow tanking at max range. Why it happens has imo two reasons: One is it that the average player is just afraid of scratched paint. But the other one is that is simply works.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Viravandrel said:

I know that the possibility is slim, but still possibilities for other things in this world also had small chances but sometimes they were achieved. 

 

I think that if my solutions are not good enough, then I would sit best players of this game (OMNI, TTT or whatever other ridiculously good players) and give them simple task to answer the question- HOW TO MAKE THE SHIPS MOVE IN THIS GAME? let them think about it. All the best battles i saw were those in which whole team kept moving around the map, not sitting in one place and grinding damage...

Pretty much what @Tyrendian89said below. Moving around is fun. 

The reason the average player doesn't move is because I think they lack in situational awareness and in skills, not because they suddenly hate sailing around. You see it by the reactions on the forums about tier 8, e.g.: "T8 gets insta deleted by T10". As a result they do what they do and it results for them in their best games.

So how to make the ships move in this game? MO:

  • I think by automatically changing the mini map settings of all players that have account level 15 to: "enable last known ship positions" and "ship names", together with a short video about the mini map. Also introduce level 16 where the settings automatically change and this video shows up. It grinds my gears when someone on the forum complains about radar, but isn't using these settings. Can't blame them for not knowing.
  • An aiming circle that changes colour when you hover over a ship, so that it makes it easier for players to pick a shell type. Should include a tutorial in the start of the game as in WoT (this game has it, right?)
  • Experience system rework. Should be better balanced.
  • Some kind of kill cam. Players should see that I wait with firing my guns till that sweet broadside shows up. I hope they learn something from it, and otherwise I will learn something from it and can say "nice shot" more often when I get sunken.

 

EDIT: Let me add to the kill cam that players with good situational awareness know what killed them and they can learn from it. If you don't know what killed you it becomes more difficult to learn from.

 

 



 

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3 minutes ago, Sissors said:

What kind of BS is that? I should be playing my 2 premiums permanently just to finally get a lvl 19 captain before I am allowed in TX? I play now quite some games for quite a while, and I have a total of one lvl 19 captain and 4 TX ships. 

And am I allowed to play my Musashi without a 19 point captain? Or should I only use low tier premiums to train captains? And not to mention, how many premium US DDs do you think I have? (Hint: Answer is one, the T2 one).

 

Gearing really needs a 10 point captain. After that you already get to the nice to have area, and not the required area. 

 

I don't think it will be too useful to ask the best players. Simply because they know what to do. They will often play with their team, and will get support. The issue is the average player. I think the proposal to link dispersion to target speed is good (although I wouldn't put a hard limit, just the faster you go, the worse the incoming dispersion will be).

And on one hand I understand people want that those who show broadside get punished. But the result is that also in a BB if I push, I probably won't have team bringing alot of support, so I have to disengage or get burned down. Going into concealment is unlikely, breaking and reversing is too late by then (and unwanted imo), so unless there is an island I can hide behind, I have to turn, and during turn I will show broadside. Obviously you will try to time it, but that won't work perfect either. 

 

Now someone will tell me I screwed up and should git gud. Fine, then I won't make the mistake of showing broadside again. I'll stay bow tanking at max range. Why it happens has imo two reasons: One is it that the average player is just afraid of scratched paint. But the other one is that is simply works.

 

 

Well if it works for you, fine. But no need to be so overly jumpy in your comments (GOT = dutch, right? iets met lange tenen enzo)

 

What I highlighted in your comment; that is the whole problem, with certain BB's.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Viravandrel said:

proposed solution (easy and simple):

- increase the accuracy of shells fired at targets moving 1/4 or slower (well... it's EASIER to hit stationary target- game should reflect that...)- for example halve the dispersion or increase sigma

- decrease the damage of citadel hits while keeping the penetration damage the same - the reason why nobody in this game even tries to play normal ship dodge game (as it should be- it was like this in reality) is that whenever you try to dodge BBs hit you in the citadel and you're toast.

 

I agree with your judgment on gameplay at high tiers and i find your proposed solution really clever and simple to implement.

 

I wonder why no one came up with it before.

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9 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

Pretty much what @Tyrendian89said below. Moving around is fun. 

The reason the average player doesn't move is because I think they lack in situational awareness and in skills, not because they suddenly hate sailing around. You see it by the reactions on the forums about tier 8, e.g.: "T8 gets insta deleted by T10". As a result they do what they do and it results for them in their best games.

So how to make the ships move in this game? MO:

  • I think by automatically changing the mini map settings of all players that have account level 15 to: "enable last known ship positions" and "ship names", together with a short video about the mini map. Also introduce level 16 where the settings automatically change and this video shows up. It grinds my gears when someone on the forum complains about radar, but isn't using these settings. Can't blame them for not knowing.
  • An aiming circle that changes colour when you hover over a ship, so that it makes it easier for players to pick a shell type. Should include a tutorial in the start of the game as in WoT (this game has it, right?)
  • Experience system rework. Should be better balanced.
  • Some kind of kill cam. Players should see that I wait with firing my guns till that sweet broadside shows up. I hope they learn something from it, and otherwise I will learn something from it and can say "nice shot" more often when I get sunken.

 

 



 

That is why I really liked Arms Race; dynamic and therefore utilizing the sheer firepower of what is available at tier X.

 

Talking about moving around, I will leave this behind (again)

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

I have levelled 2 captains to 19 on Gearing and this is my third..  I know how to play Gearing and have the legendary upgrade equipped.

I have 71 knot torpedoes and 5.6km concealment.. I know my enemy ships so very rarely get detected with radar, hydro or by other DD's.. and I am always ready to run because I can regroup and return.

You can improve your gameplay by setting up your mini map right. Use "Last known ship positions" and "Ship Names" so that you can be more useful in a battle.

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16 hours ago, Aragathor said:

The meta just punishes people that don't bow tank.

... which is why I for one particularly love ships like Izumo, Richelieu, Nelson, and Dunkerque! 

 

Forward-facing main guns. No need to angle (or at least not a lot, in most cases), to bring all heavy guns to bear. 

 

You still retain some of this advantage in the event that you need to run away. Then, as with conventional gun lay-outs, you can at least still point all your heavy artillery backwards, still without needing to angle a whole lot. It seems more than a few enemies somehow do not seem to expect this from a "running" forward-gun BB, to then still have all or most of its guns blasting away backwards! 

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17 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

You can improve your gameplay by setting up your mini map right. Use "Last known ship positions" and "Ship Names" so that you can be more useful in a battle.

I appreciate your advice; however my mini map shows the ships name, always has.. As to last known position, never even thought about it and never needed it. I see an enemy ships position on the mini map and it goes dark, unless I see an indicator it has been sunk, I am always aware of where it may reappear hence the comment about being ready to run if necessary.

 

But thank you anyways. :cap_like:

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