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Viravandrel

Top tier matches don't feel like ships anymore

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Hello!

 

not a rant in any way, just an observation. For quite some time already the high tier matches started to look like WoT- people hug islands, BBs are standing still or reversing (cruisers usually do the same), everyone camps and try to stay at range in fear of being shot to bits in seconds (damage on high tiers is pretty high :P ). For me the game stops looking like ships anymore, it totally lost it's maneuverability, ships do not act like in reality- they do not go forward and trade salvoes, the battle lost all of it's dynamics, it's just slow and painful grinding to death. I know it's the most effective way of playing (well, I do that myself...) but the longer I play like that I start asking myself a question- Do I even wanna play like this? I can easily switch to tanks and play like this there... or maybe ill just stay on lower tiers although it starts to look like this in mid tiers as well...

 

proposed solution (easy and simple):

- increase the accuracy of shells fired at targets moving 1/4 or slower (well... it's EASIER to hit stationary target- game should reflect that...)- for example halve the dispersion or increase sigma

- decrease the damage of citadel hits while keeping the penetration damage the same - the reason why nobody in this game even tries to play normal ship dodge game (as it should be- it was like this in reality) is that whenever you try to dodge BBs hit you in the citadel and you're toast. 

 

I think that those simple changes would force players to change their behavior in a good way- the battle would start to look like a ship battle again, not some tank camper fest. 

 

I'm ready to hear your thoughts on this matter guys- maybe you're tired of camping too? Maybe you got better solutions, i'll gladly hear some other

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3 minutes ago, Viravandrel said:

 

proposed solution (easy and simple):

- increase the accuracy of shells fired at targets moving 1/4 or slower (well... it's EASIER to hit stationary target- game should reflect that...)- for example halve the dispersion or increase sigma

- decrease the damage of citadel hits while keeping the penetration damage the same - the reason why nobody in this game even tries to play normal ship dodge game (as it should be- it was like this in reality) is that whenever you try to dodge BBs hit you in the citadel and you're toast. 

 

we get a lot of pretty hilariously idiotic "proposed solutions", but yours arent unreasonable. Colour me surprised... Not sure they'd really solve the issues you mention, but they're also not all that outlandish...

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Reworked CVs look like they're going to punish camping even harder than current CVs. You still have to wait until next year for them to arrive tho.

 

Whether that's going to solve camping or simply incite a new wave of "OMG CVs OP" threads is also rather questionable.

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9 minutes ago, Viravandrel said:

proposed solution (easy and simple):

- increase the accuracy of shells fired at targets moving 1/4 or slower (well... it's EASIER to hit stationary target- game should reflect that...)- for example halve the dispersion or increase sigma

- decrease the damage of citadel hits while keeping the penetration damage the same - the reason why nobody in this game even tries to play normal ship dodge game (as it should be- it was like this in reality) is that whenever you try to dodge BBs hit you in the citadel and you're toast. 

 

I call that good thinking. The sigma on standing/slow ships is a remarkably good one. 

Probably that is a bit difficult, so the reverse would be nice too:

- increase dispersion when shooting from a non-moving ship (as in: bobbing up and down on the waves). 

 

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1 minute ago, Anthoniusii said:

WG PUBLISHED a video explaining that ships are NOT tanks. But it seams bad habbits carried from World of Tanks are hard to forget.

There are a lot of players who have never played WoT. They don't have any habits to carry over. The meta just punishes people that don't bow tank.

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19 minutes ago, Viravandrel said:

- increase the accuracy of shells fired at targets moving 1/4 or slower (well... it's EASIER to hit stationary target- game should reflect that...)- for example halve the dispersion or increase sigma

- decrease the damage of citadel hits while keeping the penetration damage the same - the reason why nobody in this game even tries to play normal ship dodge game (as it should be- it was like this in reality) is that whenever you try to dodge BBs hit you in the citadel and you're toast. 

 

Apart from these suggestions not changing much, I like the first one and really dislike the second one.

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32 minutes ago, Viravandrel said:

just an observation. For quite some time already the high tier matches started to look like WoT- people hug islands, BBs are standing still or reversing (cruisers usually do the same), everyone camps and try to stay at range in fear of being shot to bits in seconds

Correct. It's one of those things, the main thing in fact, that is killing the joy in this game for me. The game at high tier already is so campy and passive, and recently with the yamato/musashi spam (still so many ppl grinding yamato legendary? dno) you can't really break a lot of tactical stalemates with a reversing bowcamper on every angle.

 

Add to that the (not that recent) addition of demo expert nerf and especially fire prevention, it takes half a game to burn anyone of those down, not to mention the BS battleship stealth that allows them to disappear. Like El2a said, carriers can't arrive fast enough to end this.

 

18 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

The meta just punishes people that don't bow tank.

Not only the meta, also WG's designs (that are then the "reason" for said meta)

 

They wanted to make the front of BBs significantly weaker (even citadellable?), but that idea got thrown away before even tried because BBaby outcry.

Then the addition of ships that amplify that behaviour - every ship with 2/3 of its gunpower in the front will just be used in this annoying way - and a lot of them are premiums which get played a lot - e.g. Musashi and Missouri.

 

The Bourgogne will be exactly the same, just as a lot of Alsace players already do, not to mention the Jean Bart who has ALL his firepower in front. Those Frenchies have of course even something extra to prevent punishment above mentioned stealth and fireprevention, and that is with their speed they can reverse so fast that you'll never really outflank them.

 

As if BBs needed more incentives to be braindead accessible...

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33 minutes ago, Viravandrel said:

Hello!

 

not a rant in any way, just an observation. For quite some time already the high tier matches started to look like WoT- people hug islands, BBs are standing still or reversing (cruisers usually do the same), everyone camps and try to stay at range in fear of being shot to bits in seconds (damage on high tiers is pretty high :P ). For me the game stops looking like ships anymore, it totally lost it's maneuverability, ships do not act like in reality- they do not go forward and trade salvoes, the battle lost all of it's dynamics, it's just slow and painful grinding to death. I know it's the most effective way of playing (well, I do that myself...) but the longer I play like that I start asking myself a question- Do I even wanna play like this? I can easily switch to tanks and play like this there... or maybe ill just stay on lower tiers although it starts to look like this in mid tiers as well...

 

proposed solution (easy and simple):

- increase the accuracy of shells fired at targets moving 1/4 or slower (well... it's EASIER to hit stationary target- game should reflect that...)- for example halve the dispersion or increase sigma

- decrease the damage of citadel hits while keeping the penetration damage the same - the reason why nobody in this game even tries to play normal ship dodge game (as it should be- it was like this in reality) is that whenever you try to dodge BBs hit you in the citadel and you're toast. 

 

I think that those simple changes would force players to change their behavior in a good way- the battle would start to look like a ship battle again, not some tank camper fest. 

 

I'm ready to hear your thoughts on this matter guys- maybe you're tired of camping too? Maybe you got better solutions, i'll gladly hear some other

I actually do like the suggestion with the increased accuracy on slow targets, but reducing citadel damage....citadels already have become ridicoulusly uncommon and have been nerfed to hell. Mistakes need to be punishable and we are already on the brink with that.

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40 minutes ago, Viravandrel said:

maybe you're tired of camping too?

 

High tier is pretty much dead for me. Everytime I go back there, thinking it might get better - it actually gets worse. Shitty gameplay, most stupid players, incredibly campy. Games stops at T7 for me nowadays.

 

And I agree - something needs to be done. But I dont see WG doing anything radical. Your suggestions are decent (especially the first one - I thought before, thats sitting / slow targets should be punished harder for that), but yea, I dont see it happen...

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Thanks guys for all the positive feedback

 

about those citadels that was just a thought because right now every cruiser in the game cower in a prospect of being hit in side, it's not uncommon to lose 2/3 HP or even full - if you think it's unreasonable well it should be tested by competent people. In high tier there are ridiculous amounts of yamatos and musashis, especially the former with new ridiculous sniper legendary upgrade so being hit in citadel is not uncommon. I am mainly light forces commander (DD+ cruiser- I suck on BBs) and for me the games looks worse and worse the better I get into it- when I sucked i could gladly move full speed and dodge shells on lower tiers, then first ranked season etc. and the game keeps fading from the desirable way to play 

 

@El2azer- yes, you are totally right that CVs force people to move, unfortunately right now CV (especially high tier ones) are so ridiculously powerful that they can easily wipe half a team themselves if enemy carrier player is bad/worse. I am all for new carrier system and I agree it may change the situation, but on the other hand what happens in games when there is no carrier or people will not like new carrier system and not play them? there should be a system answer to that, not only a type of ships... i think that increasing accuracy towards stationary targets is THE only reasonable solution.  

 

P.S. One other small thing- new maps. For me new maps keep looking closer and closer to tanks with every single update. I don't know if same people design them but I'm inclined to think that new maps have designed path for each type of ships... Oh wait it's just like heavy/medium/TD lanes in tanks... with changes to the way stationary ships are hit it would also balance this- people forced to move would have to start thinking how they are moving in advance, not only finding one sweet spot and sitting there half a game

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2 hours ago, Viravandrel said:

Hello!

 

not a rant in any way, just an observation. For quite some time already the high tier matches started to look like WoT- people hug islands, BBs are standing still or reversing (cruisers usually do the same), everyone camps and try to stay at range in fear of being shot to bits in seconds (damage on high tiers is pretty high :P ). For me the game stops looking like ships anymore, it totally lost it's maneuverability, ships do not act like in reality- they do not go forward and trade salvoes, the battle lost all of it's dynamics, it's just slow and painful grinding to death. I know it's the most effective way of playing (well, I do that myself...) but the longer I play like that I start asking myself a question- Do I even wanna play like this? I can easily switch to tanks and play like this there... or maybe ill just stay on lower tiers although it starts to look like this in mid tiers as well...

 

proposed solution (easy and simple):

- increase the accuracy of shells fired at targets moving 1/4 or slower (well... it's EASIER to hit stationary target- game should reflect that...)- for example halve the dispersion or increase sigma

- decrease the damage of citadel hits while keeping the penetration damage the same - the reason why nobody in this game even tries to play normal ship dodge game (as it should be- it was like this in reality) is that whenever you try to dodge BBs hit you in the citadel and you're toast. 

 

I think that those simple changes would force players to change their behavior in a good way- the battle would start to look like a ship battle again, not some tank camper fest. 

 

I'm ready to hear your thoughts on this matter guys- maybe you're tired of camping too? Maybe you got better solutions, i'll gladly hear some other

As much as your ideas sound reasonable, its rather unlikely to happen. Even drilling the living bum out of S_O about it might not help, in worst case it will net you a ban.

 

And midtiers, with tier 7 in particular is good one to stop - somewhat preferential MM, a lot of fine and (mostly) balanced boats to tug around. Only DDs are on shafted end when uptiered due to lack of camo upgrade.

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My only experience in High Tier Battles comes from getting upgraded in my T8/T9 ships and I can only agree a100% to what the OP posted.

Which doesn't keep me from pushing like an idiot when I'm in a battle with any of my BBs. Often to some success.. but often also to find a lonely un-assisted death...

 

What I don't agree to is, that it is "the meta" that makes people play like they are mentally challenged. Meta has nothing to do with it. It's pure potatoism... Often the team that agrees to push and does it properly wins the battle, while the island huggers kemp only to lose...

So the main problem that I see with high tier battles, is that even players worse than me - and I'm only mediocre - can get there by just playing enough losing battles without the need to learn anything about tactics.

Add to that the amount of people that go "I'm just here to have fun shooting my guns and listening to the great sound effects" is also way too large.

 

So though I agree that those changes OP would like to see are nice and would love to see them in game, they won't change anything.

 

And yes, map design - especially those "re-made maps" - like islands of ice - are looking way too much like WoT maps for me, too... all to make the game easier for the paying potatoes..

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I know that the possibility is slim, but still possibilities for other things in this world also had small chances but sometimes they were achieved. 

 

I think that if my solutions are not good enough, then I would sit best players of this game (OMNI, TTT or whatever other ridiculously good players) and give them simple task to answer the question- HOW TO MAKE THE SHIPS MOVE IN THIS GAME? let them think about it. All the best battles i saw were those in which whole team kept moving around the map, not sitting in one place and grinding damage...

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2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Reworked CVs look like they're going to punish camping even harder than current CVs. You still have to wait until next year for them to arrive tho.

 

Problem is that the overwhelming majority of ships who camp just don't care (at Tier 8+) because they have AA en masse...

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I agree. One of the reasons I do not like high tiers and are not really trying to grind to tier 10, is that it just feels like WoT 2.0

 

And I agree that Citadels are a problem. They soo much discourage attacking/maneuver warfare as people are very likely to just receive a random citadel. Especially cruisers, who can do everything right, and still get a random citadel on them, even when are not showing broadside. And the whole citadel system has nothing to do with aiming well or shooting well, as you can do everything wrong and still get a citadel just because of RNG dispersion, just like you can do everything right and get none.

 

In my opinions, citadels are just like the detonation mechanic. Complete RNG. At least with detonation, I can use flags.

 

Then again, citadel isn't the only thing that makes it play like WoT. Things like overmatch/auto bounce mechanics also make it way too similair. Like let the ships go broadside and fire volleys like they would in real life.

I am not asking for a historically accurate simulator, just want it to feel like a ship at least.

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I don't play WoT but the idea that high level WoWs games seem to need Tank tactics had definitely occurred to me, and I do wonder whether the developers are shared between the the two games in such a way that the nature of naval combat is being lost. At high Tiers the mechanics of the game are now almost completely mismatched with the design parameters of the ships....it's no surprise that French battleships are so popular when their forward facing armament,  bow tanking ability, and lack of need to go broadside makes perfect sense in the game, even though it seemed like crazy stuff in reality. 

 

2 hours ago, Earl_of_Northesk said:

proposed solution (easy and simple):

- increase the accuracy of shells fired at targets moving 1/4 or slower (well... it's EASIER to hit stationary target- game should reflect that...)- for example halve the dispersion or increase sigma

- decrease the damage of citadel hits while keeping the penetration damage the same - the reason why nobody in this game even tries to play normal ship dodge game (as it should be- it was like this in reality) is that whenever you try to dodge BBs hit you in the citadel and you're toast. 

 

This whole slow back/forwards thing only works because of our vision and the way it has trouble judging the motion of slow moving objects on a 2D rendition of a 3D image. If we had what ship gunners actually had - the ability to lock our focus on a point and watch how objects move against it - then it wouldn't work at all. X Marks The Spot doesn't go far enough... I'd like a Binocular Lock feature which would work as above: allow me to mark a point on the screen and measure objects against it. If you wanted to make it fair, then you could insist the player be locked in Binocular view as long as the mark is in use, so they'd be taking a risk and less aware of their circumstances... that seems a fair trade.

 

As for Citadels... yup. Cruisers should suffer more damaged modules rather than massive dev strikes. 

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I think over time there already have been quite a few very sensible proposals for change made by the players. Can't remember one that WG then implemented. Instead they came up with mostly dumb stuff, that didn't change anything to the better, except for potatoes being able to potate to the very end of the game...

 

To stop people - mostly BBs - from camping, shallow regions around islands could be implemented. Or enlarged in the few cases where there still are some.

Then reduce the - in reality mostly impossible - ability to "backpedal" with a ship. Reduce to a speed of 1 knot or so, that when s player manages to ram an island, he still can get away from it without having to call in a tug boat. But make it hurt... really hurt... hurt so much, that anyone would rather go forward into enemy fire than to be stuck in a position where he can't even use his guns to hit anything but an island.

 

Considering that it's probably the potatoes who pay most for "success" (= getting to T10) in this game, all these are of course illusionary and will never be implemented...

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5 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

I think over time there already have been quite a few very sensible proposals for change made by the players. Can't remember one that WG then implemented. Instead they came up with mostly dumb stuff, that didn't change anything to the better, except for potatoes being able to potate to the very end of the game...

 

To stop people - mostly BBs - from camping, shallow regions around islands could be implemented. Or enlarged in the few cases where there still are some.

Then reduce the - in reality mostly impossible - ability to "backpedal" with a ship. Reduce to a speed of 1 knot or so, that when s player manages to ram an island, he still can get away from it without having to call in a tug boat. But make it hurt... really hurt... hurt so much, that anyone would rather go forward into enemy fire than to be stuck in a position where he can't even use his guns to hit anything but an island.

 

Considering that it's probably the potatoes who pay most for "success" (= getting to T10) in this game, all these are of course illusionary and will never be implemented...

 

That won't solve anything. All you are doing then is saying, play one way that will punish the player (getting stuck on island) or suicide (going towards the enemy and getting alphad/primary fired to death). 

We need to change how fast you can kill a player when they turn and show broadside. As right now you have the choice to reverse/hide by islands (not very historical and does not feel like playing a ship) or go towards the enemy and die quickly as the enemy just focus fire you to death. You need to be able to turn and zigzag on your side of the front while shooting, like ships would actually do. And the citadel mechanic and autobounce mechanics do not encourage this.

 

Players want to play the game. And as this game only gives you one life, that means you need to preserve your life as long as possible. Thus you have to play in a way that is very un ship like.

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1 hour ago, Viravandrel said:

I know that the possibility is slim, but still possibilities for other things in this world also had small chances but sometimes they were achieved. 

 

I think that if my solutions are not good enough, then I would sit best players of this game (OMNI, TTT or whatever other ridiculously good players) and give them simple task to answer the question- HOW TO MAKE THE SHIPS MOVE IN THIS GAME? let them think about it. All the best battles i saw were those in which whole team kept moving around the map, not sitting in one place and grinding damage...

well, guess I've been summoned :Smile_teethhappy:

 

The thing is, at least speaking for myself, I do move around a lot - current favourite BB is Repu followed by Monty, favourite cruisers are Zao and Henri. Not Yamato, not DM/Worcester and I hate the Moskva with a burning passion. Not because I consider them weak, but because their playstyle tends to be a bit more stationary as opposed to the run-and-gun style that my favourites are made for. And for me, that's not only the most fun way to play, it also works very well. Hell, even in a ship that's "designed" for bowtanking (at least in game terms), the Richelieu, I mostly did move around a lot, and used the bow-tanking as a tactical tool if and when it was called for but not as my default MO.

 

Problem is, bow-tanking is simple to execute (easier than roaming around while keeping an eye on your overall positioning and enemy threats...), usually takes time to punish even for a good player (via flanking or HE spam), and once someone has realized that AP shells actually have some mechanics behind them it's also a relatively obvious thing to do. So, many many players do it, even when it might not be the right thing to do in a given situation.

 

And how do you avoid that? Making the bow-tanking ships more vulnerable has huge implications pretty much no matter how you attempt to do it. WG floated the idea of reducing all BB bow armour to 25mm at one point, so pretty much all BBs could overmatch eachother - but that would have mostly just meant that it'd be way too risky to ever push in, and taken a lot of the skill out of angling during a close quarters battle between BBs (and yes, those do exist - they're not just a myth! I swear on me mum!). Your own idea of increasing accuracy against stationary ships doesnt really have immediate downsides that I can see at a glance, but it's also not going to change much - players will still do it...

And cruisers like the Des Moines hug islands precisely because they're too vulnerable to random BB blaps in the open, no matter what angle they're at - Henri, Zao and Hindenburg can somewhat pull that off because they have better armour, but even for them it's a roll of the dice whenever a BB shoots them...

And targeting the maps... I'm not sure how you'd do that? Terrain is a key component of what makes this game interesting. At least for me... As unrealistic as our battlefields are, islands offer opportunities for intelligent, sneaky plays. I dont mind the occasional Ocean or Oceanawa game, but I wouldnt be playing this game if every map was like that.

So yeah, I dont really have a good solution for you, sorry... I play a mobile style because it's what I enjoy, and I make it work quite well for me, but I dont really see how to change the overall gameplay without breaking a lot of things...

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3 hours ago, Earl_of_Northesk said:

Mistakes need to be punishable and we are already on the brink with that.

Well... part of the problem is that "mistakes" are punished so hard that nobody dares to take any chances...

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1 hour ago, Uglesett said:

Well... part of the problem is that "mistakes" are punished so hard that nobody dares to take any chances...

 

I agree. And this goes especially for high tiers. A Moskva/DM/Minotaur or even a DD makes a slight misplay? Say hello to port. BBs on midtiers dont punish mistakes with that vengance.

 

And I also agree with what has been said about the maps. Looking at many of the high tier maps: there is only so much a vulnerable cruiser can do. Smoke for RN CLs doesnt work anymore, everyone has learnt to blindfire in the smoke by now.

Take Northern Lights f.e.: We all know every cruiser (that doesnt play as a long range HE-spammer) is headding straight for the big island between B/C. Tears of the desert actually got much better with the change of spawns. Sometimes it doesnt take much work to fix bad maps, obviously.

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There was this game mode, called Arms Race. Perfectly suited for tier 9/10. You had different zones to cap and or contest. Hugging an island or hanging at spawn (preferably bow) didn't contribute much.

Camping meant a loss.

 

But most players didn't like it. Probably because they needed to adapt......

 

 

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29 minutes ago, LeSnoet said:

There was this game mode, called Arms Race. Perfectly suited for tier 9/10. You had different zones to cap and or contest. Hugging an island or hanging at spawn (preferably bow) didn't contribute much.

Camping meant a loss.

 

But most players didn't like it. Probably because they needed to adapt......

 

I didnt like it because ppl didnt play for the objective... otherwise it would have been a great mode imo. But you cant fix stupid. Last game i played, i had a DD deliberately ignoring all buffs... ran to the enemy spawn, trying to torp a Worcester :Smile_facepalm:

Hard enough to play with those ppl in random battles, but in arms race? forget it.

 

@ OP

maybe ships shouldnt be allowed to stop entirely. Its either going forward or backward. And this needs to be at a certain speed, so you press forward, you accelerate atleast to 1/4 speed, until you can slow down again.

 

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4 hours ago, SBS said:

I agree. One of the reasons I do not like high tiers and are not really trying to grind to tier 10, is that it just feels like WoT 2.0

 

And I agree that Citadels are a problem. They soo much discourage attacking/maneuver warfare as people are very likely to just receive a random citadel. Especially cruisers, who can do everything right, and still get a random citadel on them, even when are not showing broadside. And the whole citadel system has nothing to do with aiming well or shooting well, as you can do everything wrong and still get a citadel just because of RNG dispersion, just like you can do everything right and get none.

 

In my opinions, citadels are just like the detonation mechanic. Complete RNG. At least with detonation, I can use flags.

 

Then again, citadel isn't the only thing that makes it play like WoT. Things like overmatch/auto bounce mechanics also make it way too similair. Like let the ships go broadside and fire volleys like they would in real life.

I am not asking for a historically accurate simulator, just want it to feel like a ship at least.

 

What happens when you are in a t8 cruiser in a t10 battle. Instant deletion on detection. Many ships are so damn accurate they can shoot a seagull off your deck without scratching it. Maneuvring in such a big vessel is near impossible. Within 10km you are just dead as soon as you encounter a battleship. Also any BB that goes to far forward becomes the target of like 6/7 ships and melts away. 

Now if they rework CVs and perhaps add submarines. All these campy shits that love to hide behind a rock will start crying because they become prime targets sitting still and all.

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