ST "improved" penetration mechanics - forcing BBs to snipe from spawn

[Aragathor]

There's a new mechanic change on the dev blog. It's a change to how penetrations deal with various parts of the ship, where previously people saw 0 damage penetrations. Read it here:

 

Spoiler

 

13 hours ago, Freyr_90 said:

 

 

ST. Improved penetration mechanics.

The mechanics of causing damage to bulges, AA defense guns, Secondaries and a completely destroyed part of the ship have been changed. Now if they hit these areas, the ship will be dealt a guaranteed damage equal to 10% of the maximum damage of the shell or torpedo. The new mechanics will reduce the number of cases when, upon receipt of the “Penetration” ribbon, no damage to the ship’s HP was inflicted.

These changes will slightly increase the amount of damage received by almost all ships in the game, however, we do not expect that their lifetime will noticeably decrease. In case these mechanics have a strong influence, we will take measures and improve the combat characteristics of the affected ships.

After improving the mechanics, there will be only one option to get the ribbon "Penetration" without any damage - the explosion of a shell in the turrets of the Main Battery and causes damage only to the module of the ship, without affecting the overall HP. We are working on fixing this case.

Bulges will now be considered as a part of the ship’s armor, that can receive damage. To avoid illogical situations, we standardize their armor. Now they have a thickness not less than the hull of the bow or aft of the ship.

Please note that the information in the Development Blog is preliminary.

 

@LittleWhiteMousehas posted some calculations on the NA forum, showcasing how bad this change will be if it comes to the live game.

Read it here, the whole topic is quite informative:

Spoiler

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/172555-what-the-supertest-zero-damage-penetration-change-means-for-bbs/

 

My opinion? This would be a massive meta change, the game would become an even greater camp fest, with BBs reversing in spawn to protect themselves from being spammed to death into the bulges. And they would be doing the smart thing. Also, French cruisers would be nerfed hard, as their spaced armour would become a massive liability. Any hits that would go in would make them eat damage.

While LWM said that having a torpedo bulge should not be liability, this change would make any ship elements designed to protect the ship do the reverse. That's not the way to go.

 

WG states that the change will not affect the ships too much, but it just shows that they don't play their game.

 

[Lootboxer]

It can be bad for some ships, but aren't they camping already anyway? Surely they can't go farer then map border?  On more serious note - if this will be a problem in game, WG will remove/fix it quickly (do you remember citadel galore?). 

[Allied_Winter]

2 minutes ago, DariusJacek said:

 On more serious note - if this will be a problem in game, WG will remove/fix it quickly (do you remember citadel galore?). 

Not only that. We hade quite a few ST announcements that didn't made it to live, so let's see if this at all makes it to the live server.

[RAHJAILARI]

16 hours ago, DariusJacek said:

 Surely they can't go farer then map border? 

Oh well, can never be sure about that mate. Had a game last night, where half of our team (4 BB's, 1 CA and a DD) fought hard to keep H1 untouched by the enemy while our base was getting overrun - This was on "Neighbors" map. They succeeded.

 

Our heroes all survived with nearly full HP, the rest of us got wiped out. But I suspect they were actually trying to burrow a hole in the border and sail right into the next map, based on the way some were hugging it. When we asked for some assistance (at this point the situation could still have been salvaged). They just told us that nothing could be done about it. Apparently none of these fellers had ever heard about an ingenius device called "the Rudder" (what witchcraft is this?), which is rumored to have been equipped in all ships for a while now and may allow an occasional course change. Oh well obviously fake news then.

 

Oh yeah, but that was off-topic wasn't it? Still just baffles me though. BUT on subject then. Yeah, I find this plan highly suspicious as well. But let's see the test results and such first before denouncing it outright. Perhaps some nerfed (non-camping inducing) version of this change might turn out OK?

[ColonelPete]

I wait for the test. Premptive whining about BB reversing in spawn is pointless.

 

Edit LWM completly missed the 10% damage part of the proposal.

[hopeasusi]

48 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

There's a new mechanic change on the dev blog. It's a change to how penetrations deal with various parts of the ship, where previously people saw 0 damage penetrations. Read it here:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

@LittleWhiteMousehas posted some calculations on the NA forum, showcasing how bad this change will be if it comes to the live game.

Read it here, the whole topic is quite informative:

  Reveal hidden contents

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/172555-what-the-supertest-zero-damage-penetration-change-means-for-bbs/

 

My opinion? This would be a massive meta change, the game would become an even greater camp fest, with BBs reversing in spawn to protect themselves from being spammed to death into the bulges. And they would be doing the smart thing. Also, French cruisers would be nerfed hard, as their spaced armour would become a massive liability. Any hits that would go in would make them eat damage.

While LWM said that having a torpedo bulge should not be liability, this change would make any ship elements designed to protect the ship do the reverse. That's not the way to go.

 

WG states that the change will not affect the ships too much, but it just shows that they don't play their game.

 

This would be a really bad chance. It would make many bbs as tanky as a paper towel. Same time some would not be affected at all, like all german bbs except kaiser. 

 

DD pen chance is what we need, not this idiotic idea. 

 

Only other chance I'dd love to see to basic mechanics would be concelment timer after firing to be based of class of ship or size of gun. Smaller gun less time visible, Big gun long time visible. 

[Xevious_Red]

16 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

I wait for the test. Premptive whining about BB reversing in spawn is pointless.

 

Edit LWM completly missed the 10% damage part of the proposal.

This is what I was wondering - I read the announcement as you could shoot the bulge and get guaranteed 10%. Same as an overpen.

 

Her calculations seem to be based on 10% as the minimum, with them taking "full pens"

 

I winder if she's got more info, or if the calculation is wrong

[Naesil]

I like the 10% minimum part on fully saturated parts and modules, so you don't need to put 100k damage worth shells to kill someone running with 3k HP left :D

 

But making torpedo bulges take damage seems too much, those are meant to take damage instead of the actual ship taking the damage...

[howardxu_23]

My nagato, which has a pretty massive torp bulge, will certainly suffer from this, in addition to the 25mm everywhere, so this change is not a good one. 

 

about the 10%minimal damage on saturated parts: I’m kinda on 2 ends on this, on one hand it will nerf bb durability, since overpens and pens can only be repaired 50%, but on the other hand it can significantly increase HE strength, especially combined with IFHE, since they generally loose in effectiveness as parts get saturated,but now they can at least deal 10% of their listed damage, it can be quite dangerous, to all ships, and not just bbs.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

4 hours ago, Aragathor said:

This would be a massive meta change, the game would become an even greater camp fest, with BBs reversing in spawn to protect themselves from being spammed to death into the bulges. And they would be doing the smart thing.

 

#1 - as if BaBBies would need any excuse to have a camp fest

#2 - as if BaBBies would be able to ever do the smart think...

 

Disclaimer: the term "BaBBies" does not mean "all BB players", as there are obviously quite a few good ones. BaBBies is reserved for a special kind of utterly useless potatoes, that drive around uselessly in BBs and whine on the forum about whatever comes into their small brains.

[T0L0S]

BB's shooting from spawn with the change, would be different to what they do now.....how ?. 

[Aragathor]

1 hour ago, T0L0S said:

BB's shooting from spawn with the change, would be different to what they do now.....how ?. 

It would become the smart choice, so instead of only window lickers doing that you will see unicums reversing into spawn. No one wants to be an XP pinata.

[ColonelPete]

13 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

It would become the smart choice, so instead of only window lickers doing that you will see unicums reversing into spawn. No one wants to be an XP pinata.

Sure....

 

Good players will continue as always.

[Aragathor]

3 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Good players will continue as always.

And if the change goes live in any form similar to the preview, they will be ganked hard by all of the balanced spammy ships that were recently introduced.

[HaachamaShipping]

3 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

And if the change goes live in any form similar to the preview, they will be ganked hard by all of the balanced spammy ships that were recently introduced.

Ouch, those 10% pens sure hurt a lot. I mean, come on. What ships are getting affected here? Amagi? New Mexico? Colorado? Ships that already ate HE pens for days everywhere else and now have a large section where instead of 0 damage pens, they eat 10% damage pens. Not to mention, most HE spam lands on the deck anyway, unless you derp them from short range, in which case, that spam won't last long. Meanwhile sturdy ships like the Germans or Hood barely have torp bulges that are affected. As long as the change is not yet in testing and nothing shows that these pens will actually do full pen damage and not 10% as advertised, it's way too early to complain.

[Guillotine]

Good change overall but ill hope you could deal full pen bow in DDs under 6km as BB but overall those lol pen 6-14k hp salvoes are just too easy/random. 

[NothingButTheRain]

1 hour ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

#1 - as if BaBBies would need any excuse to have a camp fest

#2 - as if BaBBies would be able to ever do the smart think...

 

Disclaimer: the term "BaBBies" does not mean "all BB players", as there are obviously quite a few good ones. BaBBies is reserved for a special kind of utterly useless potatoes, that drive around uselessly in BBs and whine on the forum about whatever comes into their small brains.

This thread isn't about BBabies.

[Sigimundus]

7 hours ago, Aragathor said:

There's a new mechanic change on the dev blog. It's a change to how penetrations deal with various parts of the ship, where previously people saw 0 damage penetrations. Read it here:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

@LittleWhiteMousehas posted some calculations on the NA forum, showcasing how bad this change will be if it comes to the live game.

Read it here, the whole topic is quite informative:

  Reveal hidden contents

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/172555-what-the-supertest-zero-damage-penetration-change-means-for-bbs/

 

My opinion? This would be a massive meta change, the game would become an even greater camp fest, with BBs reversing in spawn to protect themselves from being spammed to death into the bulges. And they would be doing the smart thing. Also, French cruisers would be nerfed hard, as their spaced armour would become a massive liability. Any hits that would go in would make them eat damage.

While LWM said that having a torpedo bulge should not be liability, this change would make any ship elements designed to protect the ship do the reverse. That's not the way to go.

 

WG states that the change will not affect the ships too much, but it just shows that they don't play their game.

 

2

 

I understand this change as changing "0" damage penetration to "overpen" damage penetration.  These cases were there but did not appear to much.

So it shouldn't have some dramatical change to playstyle or amounts of damage any class receives.

 

But this is my deduction based on the  dev blog article and we should wait for supertest to see a real impact on the average damage

[Animalul2012]

so lest punish battleships that push well done wargaming well done! also what is the problem with some secondarys and aa guns and space armor absorbing the damage? i hope this change will never make into the game! focus on new ship nations, balance some old crappy ships, new game modes not all this bullcrap of changing good mechanics, adding new broken classes, and making arty to operate on the sea! seriously people from wows are worse than the ones from wot, at least the just want a better matchmaking and remove premium ammo and get rid of some powercrep, but here... nah lest change mechanics left and right!

[anonym_mlJIAFnOwMVb]

I fail to see what this changes.  Every doorknob sits at the back and refuses to cap anyway.  It's already a snipefest of gutless cowards. Null.

[Yedwy]

BBs that push and get shafted by team usually die of plunging he spam anyway and not much will change there

[havaduck]

9 hours ago, Aragathor said:

forcing BBs to snipe from spawn

 

 

 

So they are finally coming forth from the borders? Really? Can you promise me that?

 

 

Anyway: The humanity! Truly those poor BBs dont have it easy!

 

 

 

 

 

[EdiJo]

10 hours ago, Aragathor said:

There's a new mechanic change on the dev blog. It's a change to how penetrations deal with various parts of the ship, where previously people saw 0 damage penetrations. Read it here:

 

  Hide contents

 

 

@LittleWhiteMousehas posted some calculations on the NA forum, showcasing how bad this change will be if it comes to the live game.

Read it here, the whole topic is quite informative:

  Hide contents

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/172555-what-the-supertest-zero-damage-penetration-change-means-for-bbs/

 

My opinion? This would be a massive meta change, the game would become an even greater camp fest, with BBs reversing in spawn to protect themselves from being spammed to death into the bulges. And they would be doing the smart thing. Also, French cruisers would be nerfed hard, as their spaced armour would become a massive liability. Any hits that would go in would make them eat damage.

While LWM said that having a torpedo bulge should not be liability, this change would make any ship elements designed to protect the ship do the reverse. That's not the way to go.

 

WG states that the change will not affect the ships too much, but it just shows that they don't play their game.

 

Thanks for reposting this here, we need to point idiotic ideas as often as as soon as possible. 

10 hours ago, DariusJacek said:

It can be bad for some ships, but aren't they camping already anyway? Surely they can't go farer then map border?  On more serious note - if this will be a problem in game, WG will remove/fix it quickly (do you remember citadel galore?). 

That some potatoes are camping doesn't imply that we can/should/need adding another camping incentives. 

10 hours ago, Allied_Winter said:

Not only that. We hade quite a few ST announcements that didn't made it to live, so let's see if this at all makes it to the live server.

And I don't believe in "WG ST procedure" to find this out, we already had many examples of failed ideas which went aaaalll the way through.

9 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

I wait for the test. Premptive whining about BB reversing in spawn is pointless.

Nope. If something is idiotic, we have to point that out as soon as possible. WG inertia is huge, they need time to notice anything.

9 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

 

Edit LWM completly missed the 10% damage part of the proposal.

 

8 hours ago, Naesil said:

I like the 10% minimum part on fully saturated parts and modules, so you don't need to put 100k damage worth shells to kill someone running with 3k HP left :D

 

But making torpedo bulges take damage seems too much, those are meant to take damage instead of the actual ship taking the damage...

Yes, leaving some margin on "saturated" areas is good - the whole "saturation" concept is sick and anything alleviating it will be good.

 

5 hours ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

#1 - as if BaBBies would need any excuse to have a camp fest

#2 - as if BaBBies would be able to ever do the smart think...

 

Disclaimer: the term "BaBBies" does not mean "all BB players", as there are obviously quite a few good ones. BaBBies is reserved for a special kind of utterly useless potatoes, that drive around uselessly in BBs and whine on the forum about whatever comes into their small brains.

 

5 hours ago, T0L0S said:

BB's shooting from spawn with the change, would be different to what they do now.....how ?. 

 

The problem is, as usual the most affected group is not the one which was intended. Not ALL battleships shoot from spawn, and now those which show even a tiny piece of their torpedo bulge will get punished like some paper-boats. Who in wildest dreams could invent such an idea, is beyond my imagination.

 

4 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Sure....

 

Good players will continue as always.

No, they wont. Because now they can use their belt armor and after "the update" it will be useless against low-caliber spam just because is covered by a torp bulge. 

 

1 hour ago, Yedwy said:

BBs that push and get shafted by team usually die of plunging he spam anyway and not much will change there

Stupid argument. Now anything will be able to spam their bulges AS WELL. How can you call this "not much change"? 

 

WG definitely cannot into balancing. Why TF are they even "testing" this? Why are they constantly mixing the balance, continuously making some ships OP for a while, and other obsolete? Is it all money greed, just forcing people to grind other ships than they are currently liking & using? 

Sounds like a great idea to lose dedicated players then. 

 

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, EdiJo said:

Nope. If something is idiotic, we have to point that out as soon as possible. WG inertia is huge, they need time to notice anything.

 

No, they wont. Because now they can use their belt armor and after "the update" it will be useless against low-caliber spam just because is covered by a torp bulge.

Pointing out is something different than whining about reversing BB...

 

The belt still works, torpedo bulges now get damage. Try to aim for the bulges on purpose for 10% damage with your HE or aim for superstructure for 30%. Guess what will work better?

[howardxu_23]

25 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

The belt still works, torpedo bulges now get damage. Try to aim for the bulges on purpose for 10% damage with your HE or aim for superstructure for 30%. Guess what will work better?

the issue when superstructure also gets saturated, and AP pens in t7 bracket--good example is nagato vs nagato, currently they can bait shells into belt area and have them cause no damage, but with the change nagato will bleed health everywhere,  due to the fact that she is covered top to bottom with 25mm,(torp bulge included) and going bow in or belt armour angling will mean damage of some sort, so it basically means she will die faster or every similar engagement means one nagato will always lose HP. 

 

another way of putting it is that if a Helena HE spams a nagato, currently she needs to aim for superstructure, then bow/stern/upper deck if have IFHE, and avoid belt area cause she wont deal any damage at all. I can put up with that somewhat(still advocating for IFHE removal or rework) if the damage system goes through, she can now get guaranteed damage per salvo if she has IFHE since there is another area unlocked for damage farming.

 

finally, i have decided the 10% guaranteed damage even on completely saturated parts does not make sense considering on how the game works right now, well at least if IFHE still exists, without IFHE, I can somewhat understand the reasoning(USN CLs would be completely incapable of penning 32mm on >t8  bbs without IFHE, so rely on shooting superstructure.)

 

also keep in mind the fact that you can only heal 50% of pens + overpens back(leaving out RN teabag heal)