Poll on WG points mentioned during CV rework video

[KarmaQU_EU]

I might have missed some points, can anyone give suggestions? Can add to poll if early feedback.

 

Just a quick poll-based response to the youtube video. More in-depth writing on the actual rework will be a separate topic.

[Fat_Maniac]

Lets get this out here once and for all.

 

CV's are currently broken in WoWS, In the right hands they can influence the entire map, and they have insane alpha strike potential.

 

WG saw this but had no idea how to change it, fear factor included of *edit the current CV population.

 

WG decided to develop the Blitz titles for consoles, and RTS CV simply isn't easy to play on a console. Maintaining 2 sets of CV gameplay and AA mechanics for PC and console version of WoWS isn't practical or cost effective.

 

WG therefore have an economic imperative to change CV's.

 

Hence the rework is born.

 

Forget the RTS format

 

It's dead, and has to go, for economic reasons.

 

If you want to play an RTS style naval battles game, go look at the other titles out there - Navyfield, Victory at Sea etc. WoWS has to evolve and RTS CV's is not sustainable.

 

I actually feel sorry for those good CV players who put time and effort into learning your craft, but the rework is why I have never touched CV's yet. When I started the game WG had said a rework was planned, and I decided there was no point in learning CV's when things are going to change and it's back to square one. I may as well focus my efforts on the other classes until the CV rework lands. I've only been waiting 20 mths !

[1MajorKoenig]

See OT I made multiple attempts to get to like the current CV RTS gameplay. But it is so unfun and incredible bad I always put it to the side everyone I tried. I really LOVE good RTS games but the current WG CV gameplay is NOT a good RTS and it is simply the wrong solution to carriers. It doesn’t feel like you are playing a carrier it just feels like a very poor and very boring RTS game.

 

I do feel very much with the current CV aces though who spent time and effort on this and would like to keep it. 

 

WG’s new approach has some potential to be less unattractive. Nevertheless I voted “other” as the best / most immersive / by far most fun implementation of WW2 CVs was and is Battlestations for me. Extremely easy to learn - a lot of skill that can be applied, large strategic and tactical set of choices - plain awesome 

[Saiyko]

some random points

 

- Quite sure CV could be "fixed" (in a broad sense) as it is now if WG didn't stubbornly refuse to listen to CV mains, thinking of fara, @Commander_Cornflakes, @El2aZeR etc, they probably all have buttloads of ideas

 

- WG certainly made some things worse. The addition of AP bombs that can blap some BBs AND a buttload of cruisers is bloody retarded. See also Graf Z

 

- on the question "What is your reason for not playing CV?" (in my case, why stop after a relatively short while), most important is the bloody UI. I am all but confident in my "CV skills", but if I have to go doubt whether a screw up is me or the UI, yea, never mind.

 

- CV biggest problem gamewise is probably mentioned UI, gameplay wise it is skillgap. There is a ton of +- 30% (+-10%) idiots in tier ten carriers out there. WG certainly can be blamed here as well, making playing tier ten in general too easy. (economy can learn a lesson from WoT here)

 

- I'm not really sure why so many people are so looking forward to CV rework. I see it as very likely that it might be even more frustrating to play against, cause WG.

 

[aboomination]

Bad poll is bad. Biased as expected.

Also, to the guys saying that the skill-gap is the main problem with CV: Is it a problem with other classes? Not really (kinda true with DD in competitive), because the other class' level of influence is way lower.

So, the real problem is the influence of CV on the outcome of a match. I.e. limit the number of planes, i.e. limit their scouting potential, i.e. what WG is already implementing with their new concept.

Do I think that the current mode could be saved and balanced? YES! But still, the UI issues would probably remain (infuriating) and most players expect an easy to grasp point and click adventure when they come to WoWS.

 

So that's why the RTS gets thrown under the bus: Difficulties with the UI (apparently so hard to fix that it's easier to rework the class completely) and a presentation that is more in line with the rest of WG's products.

 

ps: If you still think that the skill-gap is so important, think back to the last match that was dominated by two opposing Unicum CV players and how much fun you had.

[Saiyko]

7 minutes ago, aboomination said:

Is it a problem with other classes? Not really (kinda true with DD in competitive)

Somewhat, sure

 

But most other classes are represented by more than one player in an average game, so more chance of skillgap balancing out. How do you think there are those regular 20 and 30 percenters in tier ten carriers I mentioned? I dare you to try to get that low of a winrate in any other class, it won't work.

[Boris_MNE]

Been almost month since I posted,

 

Same is about with my gameplay. I don't mind changes just they are not for me.

Looks ok tho, just not my style.

Have fun you all guys,
Boris the troll Master

Bender of the Rules

 

[aboomination]

6 minutes ago, Boris_MNE said:

Been almost month since I posted

? Who are you

[LemonadeWarrior]

1 hour ago, Saiyko said:

- I'm not really sure why so many people are so looking forward to CV rework. I see it as very likely that it might be even more frustrating to play against, cause WG.

I am a positive person. It can't get worse than we have right now. 

[BeauNidl3]

2 hours ago, KarmaQU_EU said:

I might have missed some points, can anyone give suggestions? Can add to poll if early feedback.

 

Just a quick poll-based response to the youtube video. More in-depth writing on the actual rework will be a separate topic.

 

I thought you had quit the game for good, repeatedly. Why are you back spamming the forums?

[Cyclops_]

Being honest I was out of my depth past T6 on CV’s, like CV’s and I think I will be better with new formatt.

I really feel sorry for the CV captains that where really good, they must feel gutted, but a good captain influanced the outcome of a game to much.

[Sturmtiger_304]

Anyone who has CV's as their most played class is most likely completely fine with the current CV balance, so their opinion should be taken with a good pinch of salt.

I myself don't see why a 3rd person FPS should have a entirely different gameplay element in the same game, and only used by one class that can counter all of the other classes with ease. DDs? Hover planes over until the smoke is gone. CAs? Hover planes nearby until def AA is gone. BBs? Dead. CAs? Whoever is better at strafing wins. These are facts, not my opinions.

 

I'm going to quote flamu here, (he is a douche but I respect him as a good player.) "CV's are the most broken class in the entire game, it's a reason most of the top CV players, (or even anyone who even has a remote idea of how to strafe and use the manual drop) has 70% winrate in them. But 70% winrate is completely fine, right? Right?

Any change WG makes will be better than what we got now."

[El2aZeR]

9 hours ago, Fat_Maniac said:

WG saw this but had no idea how to change it, fear factor included of pissing off the current CV population.

 

Considering they did literally nothing and pissed us off time and time again, nah.

Preparation for console development takes a lot of time, bureaucracy and paperwork. It's entirely possible that they've planned to replace RTS CVs for well over a year.

 

9 hours ago, Fat_Maniac said:

WG therefore have an economic imperative to change CV's.

 

QFT.

 

8 hours ago, aboomination said:

Is it a problem with other classes? Not really

 

Honestly we in fact have had complaints about DDs being too influential ("If all your DDs suicide = instant lose" for example). BBs and cruisers too had their fair share of complaints.

If you do not believe it is a problem for e.g. DDs to have superior influence to BBs or cruisers, then you shouldn't have a problem with CVs having superior influence than DDs. Regardless of whether you have a problem with it or not tho, it's an inevitability when it comes to asymmetrical role distribution anyway. Classes that can e.g. scout are inevitably more powerful than classes that can't. And unless you plan on giving all classes equal scouting capabilities that will not change.

Personally I've seen far more default losses caused by DDs than by CVs, that stuff can be decided even before the match starts via team composition. 3 Shimas on one side and Haru/Gearing/Grozo on the other? Have fun with that.

 

Besides, if the match influence of CVs were the only problem then there'd be no need to throw CV play completely on its head. After all WG is hardly afraid of nerfing CVs.

 

5 hours ago, Sturmtiger_304 said:

Anyone who has CV's as their most played class is most likely completely fine with the current CV balance, so their opinion should be taken with a good pinch of salt.

 

And I guess the opinion of those who have never progressed past T5 on CVs to experience true CV play is equally worthless?

As for your so called facts, this is why CVs dominate so hard in competitive play, eh? Or why AA divs are so ineffective at locking out the enemy CV regardless of skill?

Oh wait.

Defending against an enemy CV is among the easiest things you can ever hope to accomplish once you know how they play. Quite frankly aircraft barely even bother me when playing DDs, they become a nuisance at best in BBs and I pray for CVs every match when playing cruisers just to farm plane kills.

Have you ever perhaps considered that they who play CVs are fine with CVs because they know how to play against them? It's why I started playing CVs in the first place.

 

As for Flamu, he only has experience with bullying people in randoms with CVs in the current meta that is catered to the lowest common denominator, same with a lot of CV players. He has likely never experienced getting locked out of a match completely by only one or two ships or competitive play when everyone and their mother specializes in AA.

Thus he only sees CVs dominate, he has never seen them getting locked out. And while he casts competitive play he never really pays attention to what the CVs are doing or how hard they're getting trashed.

 

I'm not saying CVs are fine in their current state. They're most definitely not. But they're not nearly as powerful as most of the playerbase would have you believe.

[Animalul2012]

4 hours ago, Fat_Maniac said:

Lets get this out here once and for all.

 

CV's are currently broken in WoWS, In the right hands they can influence the entire map, and they have insane alpha strike potential.

 

WG saw this but had no idea how to change it, fear factor included of pissing off the current CV population.

 

WG decided to develop the Blitz titles for consoles, and RTS CV simply isn't easy to play on a console. Maintaining 2 sets of CV gameplay and AA mechanics for PC and console version of WoWS isn't practical or cost effective.

 

WG therefore have an economic imperative to change CV's.

 

Hence the rework is born.

 

Forget the RTS format

 

It's dead, and has to go, for economic reasons.

 

If you want to play an RTS style naval battles game, go look at the other titles out there - Navyfield, Victory at Sea etc. WoWS has to evolve and RTS CV's is not sustainable.

 

I actually feel sorry for those good CV players who put time and effort into learning your craft, but the rework is why I have never touched CV's yet. When I started the game WG had said a rework was planned, and I decided there was no point in learning CV's when things are going to change and it's back to square one. I may as well focus my efforts on the other classes until the CV rework lands. I've only been waiting 20 mths !

and what if there is a 3 man worcester division? what is the cv going to do to them? worcester, harugumo, conqueror, stalingrad are not broken? bbs one shoting cruisers is fun right when you are the cruiser? stealth radar is fun right? a battleship surrounded by destroyers is fun right? every class has its problems. RTS style should remain but the Ui needs improvments, balance bettween carriers needs to be, and stop the aa powercreep this is the biggest reason why people dont play high tiers cvs at all. also this change just makes cvs damage farmers sitting in the back... this is exactly what the artillery is doing and does in world of tanks, also unlimited planes!! they need improvements not a full rework and wg should ask the opinion of elite cv players like farrazelth for example. THERE IS ANOTHER WAY OF SOLVING THESE PROBLEMS!

[aboomination]

20 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

If you do not believe it is a problem for e.g. DDs to have superior influence to BBs or cruisers, then you shouldn't have a problem with CVs having superior influence than DDs.

I never said that I don't have a problem with CLASSES being too influential. I said that I doubt that PLAYER SKILL is the problem.

If a class' power level is in line, then the individual skill of their players shouldn't be as much a problem as it's now.

 

So yeah, player skill is a problem. But only because of the underlying problem which is the power level of CV.

[TVLX]

1 minute ago, Animalul2012 said:

also this change just makes cvs damage farmers sitting in the back... this is exactly what the artillery is doing and does in world of tanks, also unlimited planes!!

This is my biggest fear with the rework and i wouldnt put it past WG to completely forget to look at the rebalance from a surface fleet perspective.

 

My biggest issue with CV's is that they are usually one of the last ships to die in a match but if they can be deplaned its a fair counter to that (excluding the ridiculous plane numbers at high tier) however if planes beocme unlimited and the CV is still one of the last ships to die or heaven forbid an off map ship then people could end up hating them even more if WG arent careful.

 

I think the game should have CV's, i dont care whether they are RTS or this new concept but if they allow cv players to ruin the surface fleet while remaining relatively stealthy and secure at the back with permant attack potential, following a completely different set of rules to everyone else id rather they were just permanently removed from the game.

[El2aZeR]

1 minute ago, aboomination said:

I never said that I don't have a problem with CLASSES being too influential. I said that I doubt that PLAYER SKILL is the problem.

 

Both inevitably tie in with each other. For example if all of your DDs suck or the enemy DDs are superior skill wise, your chances to win plummet hard. By harking on about the same thing on CVs that either means the skill gap between DD players is just as much a problem OR alternatively DDs are too influential and should be nerfed.

 

If you only apply your logic to CVs that is hypocrisy of the highest order.

[aboomination]

29 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Both inevitably tie in with each other. For example if all of your DDs suck or the enemy DDs are superior skill wise, your chances to win plummet hard. By harking on about the same thing on CVs that either means the skill gap between DD players is just as much a problem OR alternatively DDs are too influential and should be nerfed.

 

If you only apply your logic to CVs that is hypocrisy of the highest order.

You assume that DDs are really that powerful, generally. A Lone CV can still devastate half the enemy team while kiting away, will rarely be caught off guard and can cap and strike on opposite ends of the map.

A DD can do some of that under perfect conditions and will do this maybe once in 1000 matches.

Yes - a DD can (and should) be a force multiplier (spotter) and herder (crowd control) like a CV but the CV can do this more consistently and can move around faster without becoming useless somewhere else.

Plus there are way more counters to DD than to CV (in fact the CV is a DD's hardest counter - so it's basically the top dog regarding utility and power level).

 

OF COURSE all of this is even more true if the only true counter of the CV is gone (the enemy CV). Same with DDs/BBs/Cruisers, but on another level imo.

 

 

[Animalul2012]

17 minutes ago, aboomination said:

You assume that DDs are really that powerful, generally. A Lone CV can still devastate half the enemy team while kiting away, will rarely be caught off guard and can cap and strike on opposite ends of the map.

A DD can do some of that under perfect conditions and will do this maybe once in 1000 matches.

Yes - a DD can (and should) be a force multiplier (spotter) and herder (crowd control) like a CV but the CV can do this more consistently and can move around faster without becoming useless somewhere else.

Plus there are way more counters to DD than to CV (in fact the CV is a DD's hardest counter - so it's basically the alpha predator and griefer).

 

OF COURSE all of this is even more true if the only true counter of the CV is gone (the enemy CV). Same with DDs/BBs/Cruisers, but on another level imo.

 

 

the worst enemy for a cv is the whole enemy team sticking each other! what is a cv going to do when there are 2 or 3 worcesters, des moines or minotaurs? they will create such a strong aa bubble that it is impossible for the cv to strike! teamwork is the best counter to the enemy cv. if you are caught alone in open waters and you are not a aa cruiser you are dead then! also there is a destroyer right now that can simply destroy any ship in the game but we dont talk about that. cvs dont move faster unless they are realy close to the enemies positions but then if they are spotted they will become a easy prey! also cvs cant carry all games this was possible only at lower tiers( 4 and 5 but they removed manual drop for that reason) that is where cvs where op! look at competitive gaming or ranked battles cvs barrely do above 50k damage thanks to op aa but they thy hard to keep the enemies spoted and prevent enemy cv strikes. also stop suporting dds so much they are getting worse than battleship! destroyers nowadays complain to much just like the battleships about super ap dealing 3 to 5 k damage when i am angled, super radar, to much planes. to many he spammers, to many torpedoes to many cowards sitting in the back! you will never solve these problems the issue here is the player not the core gameplay! also a dd that scouts, torps and supports is equally powerful to battleship that pushes, deals and absorbs damage. 

[aboomination]

2 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

the worst enemy for a cv is the whole enemy team sticking each other! 

Yeh, almost never happens in randoms. Also, it'S not really fun to stick to the 80% of border surfers.

[Animalul2012]

3 minutes ago, aboomination said:

Yeh, almost never happens in randoms. Also, it'S not really fun to stick to the 80% of border surfers.

it is also not fun to dodge 15 incoming torpedoes, it is not fun having 4 or 3 fires set on you, it not fun to be deletes in a single salvo and is not fun to be almost usseles aganist a certains warships or groups with strong aa! but i guess it is fun when you are not the victim right?

[El2aZeR]

25 minutes ago, aboomination said:

A Lone CV can still devastate half the enemy team while kiting away, will rarely be caught off guard and can cap and strike on opposite ends of the map.

 

I hope you're joking.

Killing half the enemy team with a strike each under perfect conditions would take 18 minutes for faster servicing and 24 minutes for slower servicing ones barring use of meme bombs which are widely acknowledged as broken. And once you get spotted you're pretty much guaranteed to die.

If the enemy CV is able to aggressively take caps then you deserve to lose. And quite frankly the great majority of your team should probably uninstall.

 

The very concept of what you're saying is absurd. Again, CVs aren't nearly as powerful as most people like to believe.

 

25 minutes ago, aboomination said:

Yes - a DD can (and should) be a force multiplier (spotter) and herder (crowd control) like a CV but the CV can do this more consistently and can move around faster without becoming useless somewhere else.

 

So because something more powerful exists, it is okay for DDs to be more powerful than BBs/cruisers? Remember what I said about hypocrisy?

Besides, DDs can actually contest objectives and have much higher staying power. Counters to DDs are also at the mercy of MM whereas counterplay options against CVs almost always exist.

 

8 minutes ago, aboomination said:

Yeh, almost never happens in randoms.

 

The presence of a counter is important, what the playerbase does with it is not. Balance is to give contestants (in this case the two teams) roughly equal chances of winning outside of the human factor.

[1MajorKoenig]

13 minutes ago, aboomination said:

Yeh, almost never happens in randoms. Also, it'S not really fun to stick to the 80% of border surfers.

 

“The whole enemy team together” - wake up 

[aboomination]

15 minutes ago, aboomination said:

Also, it'S not really fun to stick to the 80% of border surfers.

QFT - the human factor cannot be ignored. WG waited long enough for the player base to effectively mitigate CV's influence.

Hoping that your AA cruiser is not completely useless and out of position sadly didn't work out. Hoping that your AA cruiser is actually AA specced also didn't work out.

There's so many layers of random in that counter strategy. This probably also lead to ABSURDLY high AA values IF you actually decide to spec for AA. So that non AA specced ships still have a slight chance/flavor.

[aboomination]

Just now, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

“The whole enemy team together” - wake up 

???