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Blixies

High tier French BB guns and their accuracy

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Hello,
I have a question for you seasoned  Frenchie BB captains regarding the performance of higher tier French BB guns, particularly those on Richelieu and Alsace. I have  no experience with them as I'm currently finishing the lovely grind of Lyon.

Basically, are they any good? The caliber of 380 mm seems very lackluster and the penetration is nothing to write home about. The sigma values are also pretty mediocre (to say the least).
And yet, I know the Alsace have been nerfed (supposedly for a good reason) and is still considered strong.

What baffles me is the disparity of dispersion values compared to Iowa:

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.0d0446c98eec48e18d4a27277bf745c4.png

I am not really sure how to interpret these values to be completely honest.
Does this really mean the Alsace has almost twice as good vertical dispersion compared to the US BB?
Is it the reason for having such a bad sigma value (as a balancing factor)?

I have noticed that the disparity in these values are even greater with the Republique compared to all other tier X BBs.
Does it mean that the Republique is the snipiest of the snipers? The most accurate tier X BB?

Any educated input is highly appreciated.

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Vertical dispersion is how much the shell may over or undershoot the target. French are notoriously bad at this value (as are Germans) for the simple reason that their shells are so fast. Higher velocity means flatter trajectories, which causes greater vertical dispersion, while with slow shells (American shell or Yamato shells compared to Republique) the shells will basically just come straight down at max range and likely hit around where you aimed. That's one of the boons of slow shells and is a reason why yamato is the better sniper.

 

Republique still is the greater cruiser counter, because high shell velocity reduces reaction time.

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15 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Vertical dispersion is how much the shell may over or undershoot the target. French are notoriously bad at this value (as are Germans) for the simple reason that their shells are so fast. Higher velocity means flatter trajectories, which causes greater vertical dispersion, while with slow shells (American shell or Yamato shells compared to Republique) the shells will basically just come straight down at max range and likely hit around where you aimed. That's one of the boons of slow shells and is a reason why yamato is the better sniper.

 

Republique still is the greater cruiser counter, because high shell velocity reduces reaction time.

So you're telling me that 365 m Vertical dispersion (Alsace) is worse than 625 m Vertical dispersion (Iowa)?

Spoiler

What?

 

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21 minutes ago, Blixies said:

So you're telling me that 365 m Vertical dispersion (Alsace) is worse than 625 m Vertical dispersion (Iowa)?

  Reveal hidden contents

What?

 

No. But it also doesn't make much sense.

5bc13b751a5f9_Verticaldispersion.thumb.png.98200f1d1325cce9f6991ce48ff3bc3f.png

Bayern vs Warspite. QE is 2m worse than Warspite and 1.8 sigma. Noone's ever going to say that Bayern has better dispersion though.

 

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41 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

No. But it also doesn't make much sense.

5bc13b751a5f9_Verticaldispersion.thumb.png.98200f1d1325cce9f6991ce48ff3bc3f.png

Bayern vs Warspite. QE is 2m worse than Warspite and 1.8 sigma. Noone's ever going to say that Bayern has better dispersion though.

 

Nobody in their right mind at least. Or at least nobody that has ever played both the Bayern and the Warspite..

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7 hours ago, Blixies said:

Does it mean that the Republique is the snipiest of the snipers? The most accurate tier X BB?

 

Nope.
Not even remotely.

République gets its damage from sustained damage, not from highly accurate bursts of damage via citpens.
That being said, when RNGesus is with you, you deal pretty huge damage.

 

7 hours ago, Blixies said:

Basically, are they any good? The caliber of 380 mm seems very lackluster and the penetration is nothing to write home about. The sigma values are also pretty mediocre (to say the least).
And yet, I know the Alsace have been nerfed (supposedly for a good reason) and is still considered strong.

 

Accuracy is a problem, but the French 380mm are the second best in the game, and even that's debatable since the Italian 381mm is only a 15-20mm of penetration above the French 380s past 15km, and loses out in terms of dispersion.
The Richelieu is very meh in terms of firepower, but it manages to perform thanks to huge survivability against AP against other BBs, so you can have those 380mm guns singing for a while.
Alsace does the same, but with more guns and less reliance on the bow itself, but rather more with the thickness of the armor and nimbleness of the rudder to get in and out of autobounce in order to use that rear turret.


You won't be sniping much, nor citpenning Yamatos at 26km, but French 380s and 431s are accurate enough to get the job done, and the 380s hit much harder than what you expect them to do.
Keep in mind that the only other common ships with 380s are the lower velocity British 381s and the artificially nerfed German 380s with their poorer penetration.

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35 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

République gets its damage from sustained damage, not from highly accurate bursts of damage via citpens.
That being said, when RNGesus is with you, you deal pretty huge damage.

I just can not wrap my head around this.
The Republique has the second worst AP DPM of all tier X BBs (bar Yamato).

So the only advantage over let's say Montana is higher penetration, better shell velocity and 2,4 kn speed with speed boost, plus the ability to overmatch 30 mm armour?
The Montana on the other hand has much better armor, AA defense, better concealment, better turning circle, better alpha strike, spotting plane and even better firing angles.

I'm not saying Republique is bad (never played her) and I'm led to believe by others it's a very solid BB favoured even in some tournament play.
There has to be something else about her I'm not seeing right now.
 

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Just now, Blixies said:

I just can not wrap my head around this.
The Republique has the second worst AP DPM of all tier X BBs (bar Yamato).

So the only advantage over let's say Montana is higher penetration, better shell velocity and 2,4 kn speed with speed boost, plus the ability to overmatch 30 mm armour?
The Montana on the other hand has much better armor, AA defense, better concealment, better turning circle, better alpha strike, spotting plane and even better firing angles.

I'm not saying Republique is bad (never played her) and I'm led to believe by others it's a very solid BB favoured even in some tournament play.
There has to be something else about her I'm not seeing right now.
 

 

Sustained damaged meaning fast reload, so you can get in two salvoes in a juicy target where another might only fire once. Along with easy to use ballistics, and if you're in a good position, you can really start racking up damage consistently.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm more of an Alsace fan myself, I believe that the Répu is a bit odd an not as reliable when you need instant burst.
Advantages over the Montana though? Faster, more reliable, longer range AA, 30mm overmatch (T10 cruiser decks) and good shell velocity. Oh, and thicker armor.
You lose plating, but you gain a HUGE resistance to citpens. And I really mean huge. 

It's also surprisingly nimble. Stats tend to paint a very poor portrait.

It's not a ship for everyone, but as far as ballistics are concerned, Répu and Alsace are very solid. Richelieu a bit worse, but it makes up with tankiness.

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19 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

It's not a ship for everyone, but as far as ballistics are concerned, Répu and Alsace are very solid. Richelieu a bit worse, but it makes up with tankiness.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but where do you get your info from? Is this the "feel" approach, Notser style?

The Richelieu and Alsace have the same guns, same penetration, shell velocity and everything. How can the ballistics of Alsace be very solid, while Richelieu's are not, according to you?

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24 minutes ago, Blixies said:

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but where do you get your info from? Is this the "feel" approach, Notser style?

The Richelieu and Alsace have the same guns, same penetration, shell velocity and everything. How can the ballistics of Alsace be very solid, while Richelieu's are not, according to you?

 

Richelieu has 8 guns, Alsace 12.
4 more shells to play roulette with.

It's the simple law of numbers, not a change in ballistics.
While Richelieu can have trouble hitting, 4 extra shells is the difference between 1.2k (ish) damage on a single overpen, and two overpens plus a regular pen.

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@Blixies I grinded the french BB line from Bretagne to Alsace and I stopped at the tier 9 because I enjoy the “lots of low caliber guns” style, also Republique seems too fat being bigger than Yamato.

 

Dispersion formula for french BBs is the same of the german ones and sigma of Richelieu and Alsace is quite low, so RNG can troll you, but shell velocity is really high, so flight time is quite low and hitting targets is quite easy.

 

On paper the low caliber seems awful, but 380mm has quite good penetration and can do nice damage to broadsides: it rewards flanking and good target choice. 

 

After my last brawl I can confirm that citadadelling full broadside cruisers at close range may be difficult because the shell will overpen easily, sort of “Roma AP effect”.

 

35 minuti fa, Blixies ha scritto:

The Richelieu and Alsace have the same guns, same penetration, shell velocity and everything. How can the ballistics of Alsace be very solid, while Richelieu's are not, according to you?

 

You’re right, the 380mm gun is the same on Richelieu, Alsace, Jean Bart and Bourgogne, there is no change between this ships as far as gun system is concerned. 

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Idk. Quite enjoyed Alsace while Richelieu was painful experience. République I got last night haven't played her yet but I can only say by playing Alsace and watching some videos of République that these BBs are really good against cruisers. As for dispersion it's awful. However sigma is quite good on République (2.0 I think).

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2 hours ago, Exocet6951 said:

... as far as ballistics are concerned, Répu and Alsace are very solid. Richelieu a bit worse.

And:

1 hour ago, Exocet6951 said:

It's the simple law of numbers, not a change in ballistics.

I hope you can see why your statement got confusing there, buddy.

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30 minutes ago, Blixies said:

And:

I hope you can see why your statement got confusing there, buddy.

 

Well now, I'm sure using the posts' context would help.

Surely you could see why adding 50% of extra firepower would make it go from not as good to very solid, rather than talking about individual rifles of the exact same model.

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50 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

Well now, I'm sure using the posts' context would help.

Surely you could see why adding 50% of extra firepower would make it go from not as good to very solid, rather than talking about individual rifles of the exact same model.

Surely I do. The fact remains you chose the wrong wording. Firepower does not equal ballistics now, does it? That's the whole source of the confusion, time to move on, I'd say.
Rest assured I do appreciate your input and valuable experience with the said ships, thank you.

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5 hours ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

Richelieu has 8 guns, Alsace 12.
4 more shells to play roulette with.

It's the simple law of numbers, not a change in ballistics.
While Richelieu can have trouble hitting, 4 extra shells is the difference between 1.2k (ish) damage on a single overpen, and two overpens plus a regular pen.

The best part is, I find Rich guns to be very consistent in terms of accuracy, only lacking in overmatch department. So... RNGesus giveth, RNGesus taketh?

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Pay attention to sigma value! 

 

Having less guns and less sigma values means your shells depend most on RNG. Lyon is compensated by sheer number of shells. 

 

This is one of the reasons why Graf Spee feels less accurate than Scharnhorst even though they have exactly same guns. 

 

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Purely personal feeling, I liked Bretagne, Normandie and Lyon guns.

Richelieu and Alsace - I'd rather shoot from FdG.

Republique - got used to unreliability of shells, which gets compensated by fast reload and weird citadel hits.

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18 minutes ago, Episparh said:

This is one of the reasons why Graf Spee feels less accurate than Scharnhorst even though they have exactly same guns. 

 

Graf Spee is less accurate than Scharnhorst since her guns have 1,9 sigma compared to Scharnhorst's 2,0.

 

As for earlier discussion regarding vertical/horizontal dispersion, the horizontal dispersion is comparable between ships while the vertical one is not. The reason for this is that the dispersion circle is calculated at the plane of aiming: that is, the vertical plane. Shells will travel through the calculated dispersion points within this circle and depending on shell arcs, the water-plane dispersion ellipse will be different. Ships with a low shell velocity will have a steeper angle of impact and will be less effected by vertical dispersion (thus Iowa's "horrible" vertical dispersion value) while ships with higher shell velocity will have a flatter arc and thus more affected (Alsace).

 

I'm going off memory here so I might be slightly inaccurate but I believe Sub_Octavian made a post about this in the past.

EDIT: Oh, and don't forget that the values are given at maximum range (possibly stock modules, depending on the site) so keep that in mind when comparing values.

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1 hour ago, Episparh said:

This is one of the reasons why Graf Spee feels less accurate than Scharnhorst even though they have exactly same guns. 

They are not the same guns though. Graf spee uses an older version of the 28 cm guns.

56 minutes ago, Kartoffelmos said:

Graf Spee is less accurate than Scharnhorst since her guns have 1,9 sigma compared to Scharnhorst's 2,0.

Except that Graf Spee is more accurate, because Graf Spee gets the large cruiser base dispersion, which is inbetween cruiser and BB, while Scharnhorst gets German BB base dispersion. That 0.1 sigma difference does not outweigh such a significant base dispersion difference. As today's dispersion video shows, base dispersion can make a whole lot of difference.

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1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

Except that Graf Spee is more accurate, because Graf Spee gets the large cruiser base dispersion, which is inbetween cruiser and BB, while Scharnhorst gets German BB base dispersion. That 0.1 sigma difference does not outweigh such a significant base dispersion difference. As today's dispersion video shows, base dispersion can make a whole lot of difference.

 

Indeed. I usually use gamemodels3d for my stat comparisons but it appears that the site lacks the maximum dispersion value. Even though the minimum ones are quite similar, the maximum one is not. My bad :Smile_hiding:.

I consider Scharnhorst more reliable than Graf Spee though, but that might be due to how I expect cruiser and battleship guns to behave, as well as personal bias (having more guns with the same reload makes the worse paper accuracy more acceptable).

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Having recently finished grinding the whole line, I'd say :

- République's guns are absolutely awesome : excellent shell arcs (makes for very easy aiming), turret traverse, reload, penetration and alpha damage per shell. Accuracy is surprisingly good for such flat arc shells. This is more than enough to compensate the low number of barrels and their poor layout. I've barely managed to unlock this ship for the last few days of the ranked season, but I had a blast in it. The pen is so high that citadeling german BB's is no longer uncommon (I believe this happens when hitting the barbettes under the turrets). And if any BB (esp. Yamato) gives you 30° of broadside (so you don't autobounce), she's in trouble.

- The 380's on Richelieu and Alsace, well they have a mind of their own. Shell arcs, turret traverse and pen are still excellent (even at tier X you can punish anyone giving you a full broadside from any distance), but alpha is lackluster and accuracy feels... well... non existent like Dunkerque. ANd like Dunkerque, Richelieu compensates by being so much more agile than its competitors, and Alsace by having more guns on top of that. I've found Richelieu to be average at tier VIII, and post-nerf Alsace to be very good at tier IX (so much that I've kept her and rush-trained French Dasha to have a 15-pts commander at the helm, while Honoré went to command the République)

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3 hours ago, Kartoffelmos said:

As for earlier discussion regarding vertical/horizontal dispersion, the horizontal dispersion is comparable between ships while the vertical one is not. The reason for this is that the dispersion circle is calculated at the plane of aiming: that is, the vertical plane. Shells will travel through the calculated dispersion points within this circle and depending on shell arcs, the water-plane dispersion ellipse will be different. Ships with a low shell velocity will have a steeper angle of impact and will be less effected by vertical dispersion (thus Iowa's "horrible" vertical dispersion value) while ships with higher shell velocity will have a flatter arc and thus more affected (Alsace).

This! Finally it makes sense to me. Thank you, based Potato!
I never thought to take the shell trajectory into consideration.
 

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Well, time for some anecdotal "evidence."
First ever game in Richelieu netted me 10 citadels in a tier VIII match.

Four of them on  Massachusets, three on broadside while he was semi angled, and one right through the stern on 14 km  while he was retreating - I was completely baffled by that, I have never scored a citadel that way (on US BB), and if I did, I'm possitive it wasn't using such a small caliber guns.

The shells felt very accurate, considering the low sigma value and supposed German BB dispersion.
I guess the ballistics play a bigger role in guns performance than I credited them before.

The ship is also incredibly tanky, fast and nimble - looks like I've found my new favorite tier VIII BB.
I just hope I didn't speak too soon.

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The Richelieu grind is  finnished :
image.png
I have to say it's a great ship!
Enjoyed every last game, even the tier X ones. The guns are surprisingly punchy for their small calibre.

 

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