operations Operations - Still worth it for the common players?

[Hyperion84]

I have a confession to make, I really like operations. It is a fun alternative to Random , Ranked or Clan battle at least for me and I would wager a lot of others too.

 

Hopefully we can agree operation Dynamo perhaps is a bit too easy to play at the moment, many people outright grind it for cash/XP or simple playing through destroyers. Let me be clear there is nothing wrong on this account, it is mayhaps just too easy compared to the others.

 

On that note we hit the main issue: difficulties of the operations.

Operations has simply become too difficult to play and even just succeed. I know some maps were too easy before and bots behaving way too simple (just sailing towards the enemy), as result WG "buffed" the AI, which is good, don't get me wrong. Improved the difficulties of the maps but to a point where normal random people even can't complete the missions. One straight up need a team of random which is skilled and is able to cooperate or just hope for the clan is willing to play operations otherwise there is not much luck in winning them.

 

I dont want the maps to be like they used too, heck no, too easy, sleepy even. I don't mind difficulties, but to a certain degree. I know the good players or those who entirely dislike operation probably will point out it is still viable or too easy. But these people simply in terminology lacks the ability to recognize and respect not everyone is great at the game, I don't consider myself good, maybe mediocre and I greatly enjoy the various operations, very much so thinking they provide alternative games/battles for those who are more PvE focused or just need a break from PvP snowball battles, where losing or winning often don't take very long, moreover even often with plenty/or at least ships still alive.

 

So this is a humble request, to make operations a bit more fair, adjusting the difficulty just a slight, so even the common people are allowed, nay dare I say is able to just complete the operation with zero stars instead of losing almost anytime. Nowadays it's just not worth anymore to grind or play Operations random compared to PvP, where even on a bad day still provideth with greater income of cash and XP.

 

Thanks in advance and a simple request, keep the language proper 

 

Yours humbly,

[ForlornSailor]

13 minutes ago, Hyperion84 said:

Hopefully we can agree operation Dynamo perhaps is a bit too easy to play at the moment, many people outright grind it for cash/XP or simple playing through destroyers. Let me be clear there is nothing wrong on this account, it is mayhaps just too easy compared to the others.

 

Dynamo XP-output gets really crazy, when you take a 4 ppl division. Everyone usualy ends up in a range between 2,4~3k base XP. 25k free XP and 75k captain XP is not hard to do. With 4 ppl it provides a decent challenge, although I could say, its somewhat easy, since we never failed...

 

16 minutes ago, Hyperion84 said:

Nowadays it's just not worth anymore to grind or play Operations random compared to PvP, where even on a bad day still provideth with greater income of cash and XP.

Its not worth it to go alone with randoms - besides that, it offers the best time-to-XP value of all game modes.

 

Here is the thing for me about the difficulty: Many operations require simultan good performance on different parts of the map (Narai, Ultimate Frontier). So you need something like atleast 5 people, that know what they do and perform good at this. 1 guy screwing up usualy isnt a big deal. 2... its gets challenging. And so on. But now it gets tricky. If you were to make the Operations so easy, that you wouldnt need 4 to 5 people to do it - you could basically do it alone. That would also mean, that they would get too easy. The only way, that I can think of, is to finaly put up two levels of difficulty. Easy and hard, for which the buttons are there but havent been used forever. But then I´d also like to have a not so easy to pass requirement to get into hard-mode. Something like "achieve 5 stars and minimum XXXX base XP in easy mode". So that people, that can select hard-mode for said operation, not only know what to do but perform well. Then we can even raise the difficulty and finetune the XP accordingly. Just to make it clear: Id actually like a challenge in the operations. I just hate it, when I have 3 people in my team, that dont know anything about the OP and thats why I lose. Give me a hard-mode, were only experianced players can participate and tune up the difficulty, so that its possible to fail there aswell. But make it worthwhile. Like you pass, 2,2~3k base XP sounds good.

[DFens_666]

I agree somewhat, because i enjoy to play Operations aswell - a bit different from time to time.

And the biggest problem i have, is, that some mechanics are horribly unfun in those Operations. I dont mind them being difficult, but there are some things you just cant influence. Couple of examples:

 

OP Hermes: AP Bombs

AP bombs are a bad addition anyway, but when the Bot GZ focuses you, then you are pretty much toast. Im not sure how its with DefAA on, since i play only Fiji in it. I mean, fine, have CVs in the OP, but dont implement them like that

 

Ultimate Frontier: IFHE DDs and crazy AA.

Those DDs hit like hell and they deal enormous damage AND they start fires like crazy. One of those has to go imo. If you want them to deal alpha damage, then cut down on the Fire chance, which would be the best way imo.

AA is just... wrong. Even a T7 CV has "limited" planes still, and you have to strike so many ships over the course of the battle. It shouldnt be that there are normaly bad AA ships hidden as super strong AA ships (New York is one of those afaik).

Overall, this OP is too dependant on basicly 6 out of 7 ppl doing the right thing. I wont play this OP when its OP of the week, unless someone asks help for 5 Stars (clan members f.e.)

 

DD play in basicly any OP:

Why do you need to shaft DDs all the time? Yes, someone will come and say, DDs are fine in OPs too. No, they are not for the average player. If you get 3 DDs, you are basicly screwed. Not only will they struggle to do anything, they tend to be even harmful to the other teammembers.

Bots are really good in dodging those torps, which means, that you usually cant farm their broadside anymore. Imo just let them eat the torps and its fine. The Bots are straighlining most of the time and are gladly taking those Citadel hits. Why not let them eat those torps?

Kinda same thing goes for CV torps too. Usually i dont like CVs in OPs, thats why i sometimes play CV myself depending on the Operation to NOT run in some random CV player which will screw you over.

 

Narai:

Technically its fine. I think 4 ppl SHOULD be able to do it even, but randoms are just... random. Played 4 times today: 4 - 2 - 1 - 5. Last one was really easy, because all but one were doing the right stuff. But little things just cost you stars, which is questionable.

 

Dynamo:

I liked this one doing with 4 ppl over and over^^ I mean, why else would you play Operations if not farm Credits/XP/FreeXP/CptnXP? There must be some incentive. Its very easy with 4 ships (Sims + US DD for AA) and everyone knows what he has to do. Again with randoms, they screw you over. They smoke you up which breaks your vision and its just plain bad.

One thing i dont like about Dynamo is the dependency on good AA ships. if you are in a game without Sims or atleast a good AA US DD, i think you are screwed. Should it be that way? Imo no.

 

 

As for the others i didnt mention:

I think they are mostly fine, some could be a bit harder maybe. Cherry Blossom is just right, not sure if i have been lucky, but ppl dont tend to screw up that much in there. Its usually 5 Stars.

Killer Whale has a problem with the exit zone: Players just dont understand it Otherwise its ok imo.

Oh ye, forgot Raptor Rescue - last weeks OP:

Too much "randomness" even when its repetitive. I think ppl do have problems with it, and some spawns are just horrible. F.e. Raptor is going north corner, and Kuma + Furutaka spawn where you initially start. Raptor is basicly rushing in to them. If noone is there to help = loss. Also because the DDs always spawn in the middle, if you are playing alone or with 2 ppl, you cant cover all the angles. Ive found that most random teammates just dont understand what to do there.

[ForlornSailor]

31 minutes ago, Hyperion84 said:

So this is a humble request, to make operations a bit more fair, adjusting the difficulty just a slight, so even the common people are allowed, nay dare I say is able to just complete the operation

 

Need to add something, since it didnt really came through: When putting hard & easy modes in, I actually think, easy should be (mostly) easier then it currently is. And there are simple ways to achieve this, I think. Lets take Ultimate Frontier as an example.

 

This OP is currently hated a lot. You can however make it easier by lowering the numbers of enemys. Currently, there are 2 DDs in the the start and an Atlanta, that you need to rush. You can make it 1 DD for easy mode and replace the Atlanta with a Helena. The CV can be a lower-tier CV, so that the planes wont have such a devastating effect and the CV is easier to catch. And so on. I think, this would make ltimate Frontier a lot easier and at the same  time prepare people for the Operation, since it doesnt change the general plan, the spawn and what you need to do. Then, if you want a real challenge, go to hard-mode and face the full number of enemys.

[Nautical_Metaphor]

Last week I played a lot of Raptor Rescue, there was a special incentive in that it was a part of the Royal Navy Arc, and that obviously kept the good players longer on that mission than the usual first two, three days after the rotation of the Op of the Week. Basically a string of five stars cause everybody knew what they were doing. It had indeed been made a lot harder than it used to be but I get the feeling they toned it down a bit more again in the latest iteration.

 

Today's Narai was a different matter, largely because of the substandard level of play. A single DD should be enough to deal with the freighters escaping to the West. But nooo, usually one or two cruisers feel the need to tag along and farm some damage. Predictable result: the channel transports sail into the bay with no escort and are of course immediately deleted.

 

As soon as you get a team that knows what needs doing, Narai is also absolutely doable, maybe except if they bring to many DDs. But even so, I mean didn't they change the shore batteries so you now can do module and fire damage, so you actually can knock them out even with a DD in a finite amount of time?

[Donnerturm]

Vor 3 Stunden, Nautical_Metaphor sagte:

Today's Narai was a different matter, largely because of the substandard level of play. A single DD should be enough to deal with the freighters escaping to the West.

From my experience if there is a Fiji in the team it should be that Fiji and nobody else going there. She can deal with enemy DDs and shore battery easily and handle the freighters with help of single torp launch quickly. Afterwards, when turning to the inside, she gets to see plenty of broadsides of the bots, which makes her damage output of course much higher than if having to shoot bow on vessels.

DD should focus on torping this fat BB rushing your convoy.

[invicta2012]

Sounds as if Divisional play is the way to go with these ops if you want good results. I don't often play operations (dabbled with Raptor Rush last week, which is very DD friendly) but it seems to me as if knowing exactly how the scenario plays out is key, and that's not going to work with more than one new player in the team. 

 

Dynamo, BTW, was a farm, and a bit of a joke. Needs rebalancing for Tier V, where it worked and there was the possibility of failure. 

[howardxu_23]

These days potatos everywhere. That said the list of what to do to get 5 stars in ops is very vague at best.

[aboomination]

I'm fine with operations becoming small raid instances (considering there will be challenge modes), but the rewards will have to be adjusted accordingly :P

[invicta2012]

The thing that struck me most last week was how often people were willing to throw away a victory of any kind in order to chase secondary objectives... Five star or No star seemed to be the attitude. 

[NothingButTheRain]

3 hours ago, Donnerturm said:

From my experience if there is a Fiji in the team it should be that Fiji and nobody else going there. She can deal with enemy DDs and shore battery easily and handle the freighters with help of single torp launch quickly. Afterwards, when turning to the inside, she gets to see plenty of broadsides of the bots, which makes her damage output of course much higher than if having to shoot bow on vessels.

DD should focus on torping this fat BB rushing your convoy.

I've actually played my Fiji in Narai yesterday once or twice. Maybe I didn't aim at the right spot but I had insane difficulty to do any kind of damage to that western turret.

It wasn't a major problem though, I kinda could ignore it and heal back the fire damage afterwards as an ally took care of the turret from the mid section.

 

Strangely enough I could do some minimal damage to the turret in the central harbor.

 

But so far, Fiji seems pretty good in this ops 

 

[NothingButTheRain]

58 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Sounds as if Divisional play is the way to go with these ops if you want good results. I don't often play operations (dabbled with Raptor Rush last week, which is very DD friendly) but it seems to me as if knowing exactly how the scenario plays out is key, and that's not going to work with more than one new player in the team. 

 

Dynamo, BTW, was a farm, and a bit of a joke. Needs rebalancing for Tier V, where it worked and there was the possibility of failure. 

Dynamo was loads of fun though, even without the good rewards 

[DFens_666]

9 hours ago, Nautical_Metaphor said:

Last week I played a lot of Raptor Rescue, there was a special incentive in that it was a part of the Royal Navy Arc, and that obviously kept the good players longer on that mission than the usual first two, three days after the rotation of the Op of the Week. Basically a string of five stars cause everybody knew what they were doing. It had indeed been made a lot harder than it used to be but I get the feeling they toned it down a bit more again in the latest iteration.

 

Personaly i didnt like that. It only meant that ppl who have no clue, and even less about OPs , were screwing you over big time, because they want their 10 stars for the mission.

Guess you got lucky with the teammates - we werent

 

2 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

The thing that struck me most last week was how often people were willing to throw away a victory of any kind in order to chase secondary objectives... Five star or No star seemed to be the attitude. 

 

Raptor Rescue should be a 5 star win - i dont consider anything less to be a success frankly

Imo there is no task too hard that would prevent you from getting 5 stars.

- Auxiliary ships die because ppl hide behind them

- Reach the base before raptor - mostly i do that with a CV , because somehow most ppl dont understand it

- Destroy 3 enemy ships in one minute - 90+% the first 3 ships you encounter

- Kill the CVs - usually shouldnt be a problem.

 

Biggest problems:

Too many ppl go south to kill the CV, even when he is dead already! (had that last week, where 3 guys went there despite me killing the CV already, and they almost died to the DD/CA )

BBs camping in the heal circle

Players in general hiding behind Raptor/auxiliary ships.

[Donnerturm]

Vor 20 Stunden, NothingButTheRain sagte:

I've actually played my Fiji in Narai yesterday once or twice. Maybe I didn't aim at the right spot but I had insane difficulty to do any kind of damage to that western turret.

It wasn't a major problem though, I kinda could ignore it and heal back the fire damage afterwards as an ally took care of the turret from the mid section.

 

Strangely enough I could do some minimal damage to the turret in the central harbor.

 

But so far, Fiji seems pretty good in this ops 

 

British cruiser AP starts to deal damage to the shore batteries within 7km distance. Within 6km it is a slaughter.

[MoveZig]

It's a mixed bag, I treat them like this:

 

Farm all day every day: Aegis, Hermes, CB, Dynamo

 

Play when I don't feel like doing PVP: KW, Newport

 

Avoid almost completely: TUF, Narai, Raptor. The first is just complete chaos and too hard, the latter should be doable by the average PUG team but then they go chasing the secondary objectives, fail to regroup and get destroyed. There's  an idiotic ''anything less than 5 stars is a waste of my time'' mentality. Well, suck on 0 stars then.

[jss78]

I'd say they're OVERALL not too far off, it's a handful that have problems.

 

With a random team, the problems start when the team either

- needs significant prior knowledge about the scenario (enemy spawn locations etc.)

or

- needs to coordinate well

 

With a team of random people thrown together, I think it's a bad design to assume either of the above. It's unfair for all players if they're destined to waste 20 minutes if one player does something unproductive.

 

I'd point at Newport Defence as a really well balanced one. It requires fairly good positioning at the start to secure 5 stars. But even if 2-3 people do something stupid, the rest of the team can secure a win by going for a deep defence. Aegis, Hermes, Raptor Rescue, and Cherry Blossom also work well. In all instances the task is self-explanatory enough -- do this, shoot straight, and you can win.

 

Killer Whale almost works. It's merely broken by the exit condition, where you can get a loss after a good performance when your team mates REFUSE to go for the exit zone.

 

Dynamo is only broken by AA-spec DD's which make the win ~100% certain. I once played it without a single AA DD in the team -- and suddenly it was well balanced and interesting.

 

That leaves Narai and Ultimate Frontier  -- and these two which badly suffer of the two problems outlined above. For example in Ultimate Frontier, if a couple DD/CL/CA in the south go where the first enemy DD's spawn (centre bottom), they're near-certain to die when the next enemies spawn there en masse. This will then ~always result in a loss for the team. There's nothing that really tells you to NOT go there -- you just "need to know". Bad design.

[NothingButTheRain]

4 hours ago, Donnerturm said:

British cruiser AP starts to deal damage to the shore batteries within 7km distance. Within 6km it is a slaughter.

Yup, noticed this. Once I gotten close, 26k in one volley 

[invicta2012]

52 minutes ago, jss78 said:

Dynamo is only broken by AA-spec DD's which make the win ~100% certain. I once played it without a single AA DD in the team -- and suddenly it was well balanced and interesting.

Best sales pitch for Sims ever, I suspect....