Hindenburg Nerf - An conceptual failure

[mariouus]

As we know, in 0.7.6 update Hindenburg got nerfed, because it was doing more damage on average than it's other nation counterparts (Henri, Moskva, Zao).

 

Now as a nerf, it did work like WG sayed. It brought Hindenburg average damage down do Henri IV level. So it was a factual success.

 

But 0.7.6 and later updates also buffed other open water cruisers -  Henri got Reload Booster, Zao got better torps, Moskva got stronger bow and stern armor. This all increased their ability to deal damage and win.

 

Now, looking at the stats. At this time, Hindenburg is last in terms of winrate among all Tier.X cruisers. And last in damage dealt among Moskva/Zao/Henri. Curious case is, that statistically speaking, Hindenburg has the same winrate and average damage as pre buff Henri. While Zao and Henri now have higher winrate and average damage than pre-nerf Hindenburg.

 

So as a concept, WG failed miserably. With current buffs alone, other open-water cruisers (Henri, Moskva, Zao) would have catched up Hindenburg average damage anyway. And it would have given very evenly matched tech-tree cruisers in terms of win-rate (*exept Worcester), all would be within roughtly 0.6%. (last data shows current Hindenburg at 48.10% while second lowest tech-tree ship Minotaur is at 49.99% and highest is Henry with 50.6%). And also Henry, Zao, Hindenburg and Moskva would have all been within 8% in the terms of average damage.

 

So, basically WG buffed Henri to the level of the Hindenburg (best open water-cruiser) and nerfed Hindenburg to the level of Henri (worst open-water cruiser).

 

 

So it turns out that community, who pointed out that nerfing one ship just before buffing others is a bad idea, was correct. 

 

 

[tappo01]

exactly, pretty much no reason to play hindenburg over zao. the only cruisers worth playing are dm/worcester for dpm and zao for kiting and long range harassment not to mention that it also has devastating ap alpha.

[dasCKD]

They should buff the Hindenburg's armor 

 

50 mm everywhere perfectly submerged turtleback citadel!

[BruceRKF]

I don't really look at stats, but this is an interesting observation. If those numbers you stated are correct it is indeed a mistake my WG to nerf one overperforming ship, but then buffing her peers as well. Should be either or.

[Exocet6951]

Or, and bear with me here, perhaps YEARS of applying bandaid fixes to that branch, bringing it to a gameplay that's the polar opposite of what it was designed for originally and conceptually is finally showing all its cracks?

I mean, bear in mind that the Hinden was made to have weak HE but very strong AP alpha, tanking and brawling with hydro+torpedoes+turtleback.
It's now one of the most long range, passive HE spamming ships in the game in random battles.

Quite the 180 degree turn.
Nerfing and buffing won't do a damn thing. Rework the entire branch, top to bottom.

[piet11111]

Good point perhaps you should summon the community managers ?

[BruceRKF]

23 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

Or, and bear with me here, perhaps YEARS of applying bandaid fixes to that branch, bringing it to a gameplay that's the polar opposite of what it was designed for originally and conceptually is finally showing all its cracks?

I mean, bear in mind that the Hinden was made to have weak HE but very strong AP alpha, tanking and brawling with hydro+torpedoes+turtleback.
It's now one of the most long range, passive HE spamming ships in the game in random battles.

Quite the 180 degree turn.
Nerfing and buffing won't do a damn thing. Rework the entire branch, top to bottom.

Even better point. Would trade the HE pen for better AP pen in a heartbeat.

[Paimentaja]

Just before the nerf, I made a brief topic out of this matter and now it really is what ppl then told me it is ; A long range HE spammer and even not very good at it. Before that it could've been played as a brawler but since the nerf, there seems to be another aspect that got changed as well, the armor. When WG tweaked the AP shell mechanics regarding water pre-fuze thingie (and some other stuff too), Hindy seemed to take a lot more damage when in close range. 'Till then it was very, very hard to citadel that thing, but now it really is no problem anymore.

 

Even the legendary module it has is encouraging a long range gameplay. I was kind of OK with all this, but, the Zao buff specially made Hindy pretty much obsolete. It is somewhat nice that the balance changes slightly from every now and then, but this whole cruiser "balancing" schebang went too far.

 

Before anyone tells me that it has OP HE, they should play this ship first and more importantly, to hit with the HE to the max range. A lot. It is no problem for the Zao or the Moskva. The 1/4 penetration does not matter if you can't hit ships consistently like the Zao or Moskva does.

 

It still has this opportunist thing going on, but it is increasingly hard to utilize if you are running legendary module and / or with all the IFHE ships around it.

 

54 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

Or, and bear with me here, perhaps YEARS of applying bandaid fixes to that branch, bringing it to a gameplay that's the polar opposite of what it was designed for originally and conceptually is finally showing all its cracks?

I mean, bear in mind that the Hinden was made to have weak HE but very strong AP alpha, tanking and brawling with hydro+torpedoes+turtleback.
It's now one of the most long range, passive HE spamming ships in the game in random battles.

Quite the 180 degree turn.
Nerfing and buffing won't do a damn thing. Rework the entire branch, top to bottom.

 

Pretty much this. Cruiser gameplay is a lot different now and not just because of this nerf and some buffs to others, but also because the other new ships. Harugumo is a nightmare, Stalingrad laughs at Hindys armor and so does the Alsace, no matter the range. Totally agree the 180 degree turn. Really liked the intense brawling gameplay it had..

[Aragathor]

First, here's a source for those numbers - http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/shipstats/eu/ship_20180929.html

 

Second, Hindenburg lost it's place pretty hard. I remember switching to Zao last CB season and having better results altogether.

 

21 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

I mean, bear in mind that the Hinden was made to have weak HE but very strong AP alpha, tanking and brawling with hydro+torpedoes+turtleback.

Any Hinden that tries to brawl will get deleted either by IFHE spam or a Republique through the bow. The current meta just means that trying to close in with hydro means death.

 

22 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

It's now one of the most long range, passive HE spamming ships in the game in random battles.

The whole line is, those are mostly pretty lumbering ships that are slow and turn badly with a large detection radius. That's the niche WG forced them into.

 

[Srle_Vigilante]

21 hours ago, Exocet6951 said:

Nerfing and buffing won't do a damn thing. Rework the entire branch, top to bottom.

No, Only the York. Everything else is fine-ish.

 

As for Potato Hindenburg players spamming HE.... 
That wont be sold by buffing the ships reload back to what it was. Potatoes will always be potatoes.

The main problem with Hindenburgs AP is its bounce angles and nobody's gonna be touching that any time soon.

 

Honestly i'm not the best of people to suggest any changes because id just give it a 5 sec reload. But a buff would be a nice breathe of life for the ship.

Either a Reload buff or even detection buff.

 

21 hours ago, Aragathor said:

Any Hinden that tries to brawl will get deleted either by IFHE spam or a Republique through the bow. The current meta just means that trying to close in with hydro means death.

This,

 

Going in these days results in insta death and unfortunately.

[DFens_666]

If you look at other servers, Hindenburg isnt really that bad WR wise^^

Probably all the german noobs are playing that, thus it has so bad stats. You can see that for other ships on other servers aswell (DM on NA is pretty bad f.e.)

 

But i still agree with you.

And lets not even start about the Roon nerf

[Srle_Vigilante]

10 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

And lets not even start about the Roon nerf

Excuse me? 

What have they done while i was gone???? 

 

Never mind just googled it... 

[Paimentaja]

2 minutes ago, Srle_Vigilante said:

Excuse me? 

What have they done while i was gone???? 

They both had the same treatment.

[Redcap375]

When will people get this. WG do it to make you grind other lines . To make you grind other lines and spend money in the process, in whatever form that may be.

 

Hindy never had a problem and was a fantastic casual friendly ship, but too many people had them and no one was going for the Moskva, Henry and Zao. Look at the numbers now? It's worked just as planned.

 

Just like the nerf of the Alsare. To make way for certain French premium BB's that are going to hit our shelves soon.

 

Games Workshop do exactly the same thing. This game can't afford to stagnate as that means less money.

 

conscripts were the flavor of Astra and everyone had waves and waves of them. Until they brought the new codex out and WHAM, conscripts are now god awful. Tanks Is the new flavor and what did everyone do? Start buying tanks.

 

Money talks, players opinions and balance walks. We all said it was a S*** idea but yeah, here we are.

 

Not all doom and gloom for the Hindy, but an unnecessary one. As for the Roon? Yeah, complely unfounded and not needed at all.

[Lebedjev]

3 hours ago, mariouus said:

So it turns out that community, who pointed out that nerfing one ship just before buffing others is a bad idea, was correct.

 

What do you mean ? WG shouldn't touch "overperforming" ship and only buff other ?

Nerf is now a rude word ? Because Hindenburg is still a jack of all trade for me, when Henry IV need to trade concealment, in order to have more reload.

[HaachamaShipping]

1 hour ago, Srle_Vigilante said:

No, Only the York. Everything else is fine-ish.

Yorck got buffed. It should be fine now.

[Benser33]

Has anyone considered that perhaps not every cruiser is supposed to have the same damage dealing potential and it was WGs intention that she sit in the ranking roughly where she is now? It's unlikely that WG wants to balance every ship to have the same average damage.

[XueLong]

Hindenburg was too good, hence WG gotta nerf it.

Seems legit to nerf ships which overperforms.

 

 

Meanwhile..

 

Ship               Nation   Battles    Winrate  Frags Damage  Exp Planes Kill/Death-Ratio

 

Stalingrad	U.S.S.R.	22 933	65.47 %	1.36	110 303	2 177	1.60	3.00
Worcester	U.S.A.	353 932	52.83 %	0.89	73 914	1 729	2.81	1.77
Moskva	U.S.S.R.	1 449 949	49.85 %	0.74	71 527	1 556	1.36	1.34
Des Moines	U.S.A.	2 903 204	49.73 %	0.83	65 972	1 639	2.53	1.37
Zao	Japan	2 969 002	49.33 %	0.84	77 258	1 578	1.24	1.74
Henri IV	France	578 297	49.31 %	0.79	77 131	1 586	1.42	1.60
Minotaur	U.K.	2 294 263	49.02 %	0.90	64 092	1 574	2.81	1.52
Hindenburg	Germany	3 648 546	48.83 %	0.77	73 040	1 592	1.51	1.45
Salem	U.S.A.	60 966	48.69 %	0.85	72 573	1 582	2.19	1.45

 

source: https://wows-numbers.com/ship/3760109008,Stalingrad/

 

 

Conclusion:

Yup. Hindenburg needs a nerf.

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

For heaven's sake OP, please do not confuse the Wargaming Developers with the facts!

Their heads will explode!

 

(Stops, as a thought creeps into my mind)

 

I've changed my mind. Keep going OP - you are doing a great job!

 

DISCLOSURE: I finally got the Hindenburg just days before it got nerfed.

[HaachamaShipping]

12 minutes ago, Benser said:

Has anyone considered that perhaps not every cruiser is supposed to have the same damage dealing potential and it was WGs intention that she sit in the ranking roughly where she is now? It's unlikely that WG wants to balance every ship to have the same average damage.

I mean, if it cannot do damage, what's the point of the ship over alternatives? If Hindenburg was especially well-suited vs DDs and cruisers, thus having low hp pool targets, it'd be something else, but the only DD and cruiser where the Hindenburg is the best counter are Khaba and Moskva/Stalingrad. Ship has no radar and very lackluster HE dpm (Roon basically has the absolute worst at its tier after Neptune). Is the ship especially tanky? Frankly, it's average, after we got ships like buffed Moskva and Stalingrad and ever more ships that don't give a damn about 30 mm plating. Hindenburg and Roon are basically starting to be can openers for 50 mm plating with the occasional lucky broadside that you can actually still pen (not too angled or too far away).

[Benser33]

25 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

I mean, if it cannot do damage, what's the point of the ship over alternatives? If Hindenburg was especially well-suited vs DDs and cruisers, thus having low hp pool targets, it'd be something else, but the only DD and cruiser where the Hindenburg is the best counter are Khaba and Moskva/Stalingrad. Ship has no radar and very lackluster HE dpm (Roon basically has the absolute worst at its tier after Neptune). Is the ship especially tanky? Frankly, it's average, after we got ships like buffed Moskva and Stalingrad and ever more ships that don't give a damn about 30 mm plating. Hindenburg and Roon are basically starting to be can openers for 50 mm plating with the occasional lucky broadside that you can actually still pen (not too angled or too far away).

Being less tanky than Moskva and Stalingrad hardly makes Hindenburg average and she still has the best protected citadel of all cruisers, while she doesn't have radar she does have the best hydro available, the option of DFAA and an aircraft consumable, and although its HE DPM isn't great it's still has quite dangerous AP, very comfortable ballistics and a well rounded torpedo armament. Hindenburg doesn't need to be the best in terms of DPS, just like how DM doesn't have to be because she ranks even worse in that department, but she has value just because she brings radar. Compared to DM, Hinden survives much better in open water, she has a more effective hydro, she can push and be a threat and she outperforms DM in terms of damage. Does Hinden need more damage? Does it not have enough other value and utility that it needs to compete with Henri and Zao?

[HaachamaShipping]

12 minutes ago, Benser said:

Being less tanky than Moskva and Stalingrad hardly makes Hindenburg average and she still has the best protected citadel of all cruisers, while she doesn't have radar she does have the best hydro available, the option of DFAA and an aircraft consumable, and although its HE DPM isn't great it's still has quite dangerous AP, very comfortable ballistics and a well rounded torpedo armament. Hindenburg doesn't need to be the best in terms of DPS, just like how DM doesn't have to be because she ranks even worse in that department, but she has value just because she brings radar. Compared to DM, Hinden survives much better in open water, she has a more effective hydro, she can push and be a threat and she outperforms DM in terms of damage. Does Hinden need more damage? Does it not have enough other value and utility that it needs to compete with Henri and Zao?

Des Moines is worse in dpm? It has 275k HE dpm and 490k AP dpm (with improved ricochet angles) vs Hindenburg's 164k and 386k respectively (with lackluster pen at anything but short and medium range vs flat broadside). Hindenburg's HE dpm is so garbage, Des Moines can outperform it with its two front turrets only (183k HE dpm, 327k AP dpm). And don't get me started on fire chance.

[Aragathor]

48 minutes ago, Benser said:

she still has the best protected citadel of all cruisers

At close ranges where she doesn't belong in the current meta and state. The reliance on long range made her vulnerable, as even 380mm guns found on the Bismarck can citadel her at range.

 

48 minutes ago, Benser said:

she does have the best hydro available, the option of DFAA and an aircraft consumable

Using the fighter is just dumb, as it offers little beside spotting since T10 planes shoot it down easily. The spotter isn't better as at long ranges Hindenburg has bad dispersion. The hydro, while best available, suffers from the fact that the Hindenburg is slow which means it can only effectively be used as a defensive tool or against cornered enemies. DFAA is a questionable choice, since the carriers as they are now can and will delete you if they desire so no mater what you do.

 

48 minutes ago, Benser said:

although its HE DPM isn't great it's still has quite dangerous AP

German AP requires an almost perfect broadside, meaning it is very situational. Also the armor penetration value on the AP shells is the worst among all T10 cruisers (Henri IV has better AP penetration at 19km than Hindenburg at 10km).

 

48 minutes ago, Benser said:

very comfortable ballistics and a well rounded torpedo armament

The ballistics on the Hindenburg are worse than on the Zao, it's main competitor. The torpedo armament is impressive on paper, as the 6km range means something went really wrong on someone's part. Also Zao has the option to stealth torp with torpedoes which do 10k damage more than the Hindenburg's per torp.

 

48 minutes ago, Benser said:

Hindenburg doesn't need to be the best in terms of DPS

Hinden, right now and in the current meta, isn't good at anything in particular. All possible roles are better served by other T10 ships.

 

48 minutes ago, Benser said:

Hinden survives much better in open water,

Not at close range, where Harugumo and Worcester hard counter her. Not at long range, where thanks to the proliferation of Republiques, Stalingrads, and Yamatos, she can be citadeled to death with a salvo.

And Bob protect you if a Henri IV sees your broadside with the MBRB available.

 

48 minutes ago, Benser said:

she can push

In an IFHE meta? Cruisers that push get deleted.

 

48 minutes ago, Benser said:

Does Hinden need more damage?

As @Exocet6951pointed out, she needs to be completely reevaluated, as in her current state a 10s base reload won't change the fact she's become almost obsolete.

 

48 minutes ago, Benser said:

Does it not have enough other value and utility that it needs to compete with Henri and Zao?

No, sorry, but she doesn't. Zao has stealth, powerful torpedoes, and very accurate guns. Henri IV has retard speed, a quick-delete consumable, and the largest caliber after Stalingrad.

Compared to that Hindenburg looks like a mixup of different ideas mashed into one and declared valid. It has armament and consumables designed for close combat, but bad concealment and the mobility of a ship designed to fight at a distance.

 

[pra3y]

Barring the Worchester & Henry Vi i have all the other silver tier 10 ships. Imo if anything, Hindi is the only silver tier 10 ship that has great survivability and consistent damage.

 

I remember a game where I only did about 10~20 k damage halfway through the match and thought to myself that was it. By the end of the game, i had 100+k damage. That is how ridiculous the Hindi is to me.

[Benser33]

7 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Des Moines is worse in dpm? It has 275k HE dpm and 490k AP dpm (with improved ricochet angles) vs Hindenburg's 164k and 386k respectively (with lackluster pen at anything but short and medium range vs flat broadside). Hindenburg's HE dpm is so garbage, Des Moines can outperform it with its two front turrets only (183k HE dpm, 327k AP dpm). And don't get me started on fire chance.

Ok so you're talking about it's paper DPM and not about how effectively it can apply that damage and disregarding the torpedoes. You can some of the previously linked sources of historical ship performance stats and see if DMs paper DPM translates into better actual damage output.

 

Hindenburg outperforms DM in terms of average damage

this week; http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20181006/eu_week/average_ship.html

Q3 of this year; http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/shipstats/eu/ship_20180929.html

Q3 of 2017; http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/shipstats/eu/ship_20170930.html

Q3 of 2016 it actually very slightly behind DM but it was pretty new at the time; http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/shipstats/eu/ship_20160924.html

all time; https://wows-numbers.com/ship/3760109008,Stalingrad/

 

So, not sure where you're getting the impression that DM outperforms Hinden in terms of damage dealing ability.