großer kurfürst Großer Kurfürst Secondary Build

[HaachamaShipping]

36 minutes ago, Mydgard said:

Long ago we tested Goku IFHE secondary vs. Goku secondary  vs. Yamato secondary against each others in training room, distance was 8km between them, paralel, only secondary hits + use repair party when that was possible. Our experiences were:

- Yamato ate both Goku, he kept 50% HP, he has the strongest secondary armament.

- simple secondary Goku won against IFHE Goku, because higher firing chance cause more fires ergo more fire damage. 

 

When we made this test, french BBs wasn't in tech tree, so Republique should be added to a new test.

Maybe because the reason IFHE GK works is because it is supposed to punish people who go nose in to you and show all that 32 mm armour? If you get shown broadside where it often hits belt and deck, just turn your 12 main battery guns and blast the Yamato out of the water. Because secondaries aren't for silly lengthy broadside exchanges as if we're in the age of sail exchanging salvos of small caliber guns.

[Mydgard]

I have Goku and legendary too and spent thousands of doubloons to test it and create a working and sympathic version, but it's not simple... There are more problems and we have to balance between them.

- inexact main guns

- high chance to burn

- low firing distance

 

There is other option if you put points on Demolition Expert instead of IFHE. I have two lvl 19 capitains for german BBs because I raised Jutland too, to test upgraded Vigilance and Jack of all trades skills. I think fire is more dangerous for GK like flooding, but Jack is very good. Anyway I didn't find yet that version for what I could say it's o.k. Now I'm on mobile I will share some screenshots when I will be at home.

 

[almitov]

13 hours ago, Seiranko said:

Maybe because the reason IFHE GK works is because it is supposed to punish people who go nose in to you and show all that 32 mm armour? If you get shown broadside where it often hits belt and deck, just turn your 12 main battery guns and blast the Yamato out of the water. Because secondaries aren't for silly lengthy broadside exchanges as if we're in the age of sail exchanging salvos of small caliber guns.

+1

 

13 hours ago, Seiranko said:

Long ago we tested Goku IFHE secondary vs. Goku secondary  vs. Yamato secondary

Long ago, you say. Yama used to fire AP from its secondary turrets. In broadside exchange, HE/IFHE will shatter due to hitting the belt armor and AP will usually penetrate. As Seiranko said, this is not a real ingame scenario. IFHE is solely used for bow-on targets, specifically BBs. In the current meta (as I've said before) it is very hard to make use of it as most of those targets will just keep at range and render your secondaries useless while the HE spammers burn you to death. 

[Mydgard]

I agree, but if you don't play with secondary build on Goku you lose the advantage of this ship. What can you do against Republique, Montana, Conqueror and Yamato? They have larger firing distance, more accurate. This is the problem we cannot create a well working Goku with his advantage, because this ship need a buff, my opinion. His main guns are the worst of T10s, I think.

[Mydgard]

A fresh round, now run with this.

Spoiler

 

[almitov]

1 hour ago, Mydgard said:

but if you don't play with secondary build on Goku you lose the advantage of this ship.

True. Maybe I did not express what I meant correctly - I am all for secondary build on GK. It's IFHE that I find a waste of points lately. It does work really well against bow-on BBs, don't get me wrong. It's just that FP or concealment are more valuable when it comes to overall in-game situations. I went with FP.

 

On a side note - I've been sporting IFHE for quite some time on my GK but the situations it is helpful are way fewer than the ones where these 4 commander points could be more helpful if used for something else. This is why I changed the spec a few months ago and I am way more happier with this ship setup in the current meta. I swapped it for FP as concealment is mostly meaningless with the current CVs.

[Mydgard]

5 minutes ago, almitov said:

True. Maybe I did not express what I meant correctly - I am all for secondary build on GK. It's IFHE that I find a waste of points lately. It does work really well against bow-on BBs, don't get me wrong. It's just that FP or concealment are more valuable when it comes to overall in-game situations. I went with FP.

 

On a side note - I've been sporting IFHE for quite some time on my GK but the situations it is helpful are way fewer than the ones where these 4 commander points could be more helpful if used for something else. This is why I changed the spec a few months ago and I am way more happier with this ship setup in the current meta. I swapped it for FP as concealment is mostly meaningless with the current CVs.

The main problem with IFHE, then you put points on three lvl 4 skills, what means your ship lose a lot of survivability ability, because you can't use other survivability skills. Simple. :).

[DoomDutch]

It's my opinion that the commander skills regarding Secondaries need a rework, so you don't have to spent all your points just to have a decent Secondary build.

[HaachamaShipping]

2 hours ago, DoomDutch said:

It's my opinion that the commander skills regarding Secondaries need a rework, so you don't have to spent all your points just to have a decent Secondary build.

Question is, what is "effective"? Like, take Kurfürst, a full spec is 18 point at least, of which up to 17 buff secondaries, which are

• Manual Secondaries
• AFT
• IFHE
• BFT
• AR

AR is a general buff and as you need a two point perk anyway, it's not an opportunity cost. Even survivability oriented skills are nowhere useful enough to not make this the best 2 point skill for a BB with turrets that actually turn. Next, BFT... I never take it. Frankly, it adds nothing to the capabilities, it only increases the damage output by like 11%. This is not worth 3 points when secondaries are this limited. One might argue that enemies die faster, but more often a fifth repair party or -15% fire chance are way more useful than 10% more output here. So, the real three skills that seem to be in the full build are Manual Secondaries, AFT and IFHE.

 

And now comes the question... at what point do we regard a secondary build effective? Because, I can easily argue that the real cost is 8 points, because let's be real, I can take off IFHE and still end up with secondaries that on 8 points do more direct damage than any other BB does with IFHE at T8-10. So, unless Kurfürst is the sole high tier BB that can get a "decent" secondary build, IFHE is not a must. Next, is AFT a must? Or can 9. something km secondaries work too? Because, how often do you need to stay at 11 km, not further away, but also not 9 km? and AFT with the AA range boost lost is basically only helpful for the secondaries now. You see where this is going?

 

The issue ultimatively is, for most ships, you can invest much more into secondaries than it'll ever be worth. And their value typically will always be limited. WG stated they are looking into secondaries, but they won't buff them to the point where it becomes so overwhelmingly powerful to have immense impact with little skill input (hopefully, because the game shouldn't play itself for us). It might be best to accept that secondaries often will need a well-calibrated input to be worth their investment and that the results might be useful, but just not immensely impressive. e.g. AFT and Sec Mod on PEF, Iron Duke or Mutsu has already helped kill quite a few low tier ships (and in PEF's case T8 cruisers) that underestimated the secondaries, AFT + Sec Mod + Manual Secondaries on any ship with viable secondaries past T7 basically is the maximum I'd invest, unless I go full meme, but then I really give no two f**ks about efficiency. And from personal experience, Yamato purely with mod and Manual Secondaries (and flag) has 8.8 km secondaries. It seems short ranged, but if you get rushed by a DD, it works. If you get torped by a DD from 10 km away, Kurfürst won't stop that either. And, I mean, short of making some Russian BB that has a ton of Grozovoi guns as secondaries with Massachusetts dispersion and can reach to 10+ km, nothing ever would. Nor should it, because it'd be kinda silly.

 

So, what exactly do we wish for, when we say, we want a cheaper secondary build option that is "decent"?

[HMS_Kilinowski]

On 3/25/2019 at 10:54 PM, MRGTB said:

Is it really worth taking Survivability Expert on a T10 Battleship?

No, it's not, which is the point and which is why I wrote it would NOT make any sense.

I think you understood the opposite of what I was saying. My general point here was that naming a specific build does not imply going to extremes and neglecting other skills that will make the build more efficient.

A survival build doesn't need every bit of HP and damage immunity, it still needs skills to destroy threats and be mobile.

An AA build still primarily fights ships.

A secondary build needs skills to hide your ship and get into range as fast and soon as possible.

 

At the end of a battle, nobody will give you credit on how much damage your secondaries did on a secondary build, or how much damage you endured on a tanky build or how many planes you shot down on an AA build. At least over a large number of battles the determinant of the effectiveness will just be, if you won a lot of battles.

 

The take home mesasge here simply was: "It makes sense to see the big picture, not fixate on the key property of a build, but be ready to sacrifice a bit of it to get a lot more of another property that supports that playstyle."

 

[Barcel]

Im on Friedrich right now, and I wonder if I should swap my skills around (14 points now), mainly Advanced Fire Training for IFHE.
Reason being, I'm trading 2km secondaries range (from 11.5 to 9.5) for the ability of 105mm secondaries to pierce through 32mm plating (105/4=26mm - > 26x1,3=34mm). I still would have PT, AdRush, BFT and Manual secondaries.

Is that a worthwhile trade? Grinding from lvl14 to 18 would take a lot of time.

[Spartacus_Mills]

I go with the full Secondary/IFHE build on the Massachusetts , not only do I find it works, but it's also great fun to play.

[DoomDutch]

4 hours ago, Barcel said:

Im on Friedrich right now, and I wonder if I should swap my skills around (14 points now), mainly Advanced Fire Training for IFHE.
Reason being, I'm trading 2km secondaries range (from 11.5 to 9.5) for the ability of 105mm secondaries to pierce through 32mm plating (105/4=26mm - > 26x1,3=34mm). I still would have PT, AdRush, BFT and Manual secondaries.

Is that a worthwhile trade? Grinding from lvl14 to 18 would take a lot of time.

I'd personally say stick with the range over pure firepower. It's better to be able to shoot more/for longer than harder.

[Barcel]

1 hour ago, DoomDutch said:

I'd personally say stick with the range over pure firepower. It's better to be able to shoot more/for longer than harder.

This means I should ditch Manual for IFHE? I don't know how much of a difference would it make on Freddie.

[BloodDragon41]

only oi said the secundary build is ashit in tier x, and useless

[________________Morrison]

So I got G. Kurfurst like 4 days ago? But  I'm trying to train this specific commander to a 19 SP commander that can run both Graf Zeppelin in a "Stealthy" Secondary build and G. Kurfurst without having some of the skills that a CV commander can't use because Game mechanics. But Is it worth using a stealth Module build on G. Kurfurst?  Should I as a mediocre player use the stealth build so the chance of getting annihilated is a lowered due low detection range. Or just go full on out on detecting ships from further range and but risk getting detected earlier by dds?

 

[Konrad_Herdy]

On 3/26/2019 at 2:36 PM, almitov said:

with

What better  AR, BF, ATF,IFHE OR AR, BS, MC, IFHE OR AR, BF, ATF, MC

[RenamedUser_556458253]

Kurfust the worst bb ever! They make it to play close with secondaries and it burns in seconds.As always WG destroys the game because they want people to spend money and time in the other ships and dont stay to one, they nurf them .Dispersion they worst ever, concealment the same . Secondaries doesn't worth.

[Pappus]

Isn't the german improved HE pen already backed into the secondaries making IFHE useless?

 

Edit: NVM it was already calculated in

[Jean_Bart]

Brawling at highest tiers?! Are you serious?!

 

This "guide" is a cute attempt, but it is useless because it is targeted at an useless ship, which doesn't perform well neither as main or secondary build! Large battleship with inefficient armour and inaccurate guns - what else is there to say?!

[RenamedUser_556458253]

2 hours ago, Jean_Bart said:

Brawling at highest tiers?! Are you serious?!

 

This "guide" is a cute attempt, but it is useless because it is targeted at an useless ship, which doesn't perform well neither as main or secondary build! Large battleship with inefficient armour and inaccurate guns - what else is there to say?!

It is not Russian , thats the problem lol

[Jean_Bart]

Grosser Kurfurst is the worst tier 10 battleship!

[samphilconlor]

On 11/16/2019 at 10:09 AM, Jean_Bart said:

Brawling at highest tiers?! Are you serious?!

 

This "guide" is a cute attempt, but it is useless because it is targeted at an useless ship, which doesn't perform well neither as main or secondary build! Large battleship with inefficient armour and inaccurate guns - what else is there to say?!

You've never made it past T8 what are you talking about?

 

Besides any battleship can be made to work and brawling can be achieved at T10 it's just hard but managed 2 "Close Quarters Expert"'s tonight in one game.

 

 

[lafeel]

15 minutes ago, samphilconlor said:

Besides any battleship can be made to work and brawling can be achieved at T10 it's just hard but managed 2 "Close Quarters Expert"'s tonight in one game.

 

Bloody nice work that.

[PaxMaggie]

This is a typical DMG split between Main and secondaries for me....half of the kills where secondary btw.
This build is still viable even tho i think, because of Ohio, she needs a secondary Buff, not only because she is the weakest of the T10 BBs but also her only real selling points (thicc Nose and secondaries) are both not unique to her anymore.