großer kurfürst Großer Kurfürst Secondary Build

[ollonborre]

On 2/8/2019 at 6:53 PM, DoomDutch said:

IVHE would be pretty bad on the République, seen the penetration of their HE guns is only 1/6 of the size, where the German guns have 1/4 for the secondaries.

So yes, the GK is more successful with this build than the République.

Pretty much. If you want a sucessful IFHE specced French BB, the Alsace is the ship to go for. The Alsace looses a small amount of range compared to Republique but wins in sheer dakka and easier to move around into secondary range.

 

Still for pure damage IFHE Kurfurst leaves them in the dust.

[MRGTB]

On 10/8/2018 at 10:56 AM, HMS_Kilinowski said:

Maybe Fire Prevention or Concealment Expert

Well, there isn't any point wasting 4 points and taking Concealment Expert skill on anything now really.

 

It won't do you much good the way the game is at minute, unless no CV are in it. But with the British CV line coming soon, meaning that will be 3 nations then having CV to play. You can bet on average more games will have CV in them after they do come, making concealment skill even worse for using.

[almitov]

Another update from my sidе:

After the CV rework, all concealment went to sh!t. Previously I swapped concealment expert for IFHE to deal with bow-on BBs. Now I changed IFHE for fire prevention as I am spotted about a minute into the game and remain spotted and HE spammed for the rest of it. I am starting to rethink changing my secondary build to tanky one.

 

Previously, I could get close to island cover and then use it to fight up close and limit the number of enemies firing on me. Now that's next to impossible - I am still at 15-16Kts, just leaving my spawn when planes start dropping cr@p on me and everyone focuses their attention on my @ss... This is just ridiculous! Also, when the enemies see me pushing from that early in the game, they can dictate the fight. They can either group and kill me in a crossfire or just kite away and spam HE. And there's nothing I can do about it...

 

Don't get me wrong - the ship is not weak by any measure. It's just not nearly as strong as it used to be when there are CVs in the game (quite common these days). Secondary build suffers the most from this as enemies can decide whether they want to get into your secondary range.

[Comodoro_Allande]

En 8/2/2019 en 18:53, DoomDutch dijo:

IVHE would be pretty bad on the République, seen the penetration of their HE guns is only 1/6 of the size, where the German guns have 1/4 for the secondaries.

So yes, the GK is more successful with this build than the République.

 

I run seconday builds in both ships (AFT, Manual and CE in Répu, AFT, Manual and IFHE in GK; neither with BFT) and both serve different purposes. Répu is a fantastic fire starter, that sinergizes amazingly with the main guns (excelent HE and reload), so you don't need to come closer than the massive 12,1 km range. GK is a direct damage dealer, and the closer you get to an enemy, the more powerful you become (more secondary hit ratio and especifically targeting platings, such as nose-in BB's)

 

 

As a side note, I bought the GK a few days ago, and two things came to mind after a few battles played:

 

-Around 26% of my total damage came from secondaries and fire

-My secondaries have a higher hit ratio than the main guns

 

[HMS_Kilinowski]

On 2/10/2019 at 2:13 AM, MRGTB said:

Well, there isn't any point wasting 4 points and taking Concealment Expert skill on anything now really.

 

It won't do you much good the way the game is at minute, unless no CV are in it. But with the British CV line coming soon, meaning that will be 3 nations then having CV to play. You can bet on average more games will have CV in them after they do come, making concealment skill even worse for using.

As you said: "now".

 

The statement was correct for the pre 0.8.0 meta. Now a lot of things changed.

Personally I am never happy when a game is radically changed, precisely for what happens here. Every player seeking advice on a topic will search forums and other ressources and find answers that are no longer true but cannot be flagged as outdated. That makes it hard for the community to share high quality information.

It's also quite unfortunate as a lot of contributions are arbitrarily devaluted. If you think about Little White Mouse's reviews, how much work and time went into writing them. If things change, on WG's side their employees get paid for changing official information and wiki entries. Community contributors however see a lot of their effort destroyed in an instant.

 

It's also a problem for players as the free respecs only last for a short duration, while the impact of the meta has not yet fully revealed. So I couldn't make an educated guess, what and efficient GK build now should look like.

[DoomDutch]

I made some small edits outlining some changes with the new meta from v0.8.1. 
I'd also like to emphasize that the secondary build on the GK isn't the best build in general for it, and that this build is meant for those who'd like to go the route of a secondary build GK.

[DuneDreamer]

9 minutes ago, DoomDutch said:

I'd also like to emphasize that the secondary build on the GK isn't the best build in general for it

I've come to the same conclusion. The best build I've tested so far for me is this one:

 

By the way, I'm waiting for the new German premium BB shown on the screenshot below:

[rnat]

6 hours ago, DuneDreamer said:

I've come to the same conclusion. The best build I've tested so far for me is this one:

No SI on a ship with as much sustain and armor as the GK ?

[DuneDreamer]

7 hours ago, rnat said:

No SI on a ship with as much sustain and armor as the GK ?

With so many IFHE spammers, fires are the greatest problem for GK at the moment, and dealing with fires saves you much more HP than the damage you can do with a full secondary build!

[rnat]

The extra heal will help you deal with fires and other sources of dmg as well. (I never argued for a full secondary build, where did you get that from ?)

[HMS_Kilinowski]

11 hours ago, DuneDreamer said:

With so many IFHE spammers, fires are the greatest problem for GK at the moment, and dealing with fires saves you much more HP than the damage you can do with a full secondary build!

However the current change in the meta might change that. Yes, we still got HE-spam, but with update 0.8.0 we got CVs revived and in the same turn CE got nerfed. It's safe to assume most GK players will have taken the concealment module and use a camo. Then the current concealment is 14.3 km. If I remember correctly, it was 13.6km - 13.7 km before. So 600m-700m difference. CE still is a viable choice but the nerf shifts other options.

Without CE you got 15.9 km concealment range. So CE lowers your detection by 1.6km, where it lowered your detection by 2.2km - 2.3km prior to patch 0.8.0.

 

That makes other builds look more attractive. Situations where concealment makes the difference now are less likely. The 0.8.0 meta may change a couple of things, some due to the CE nerf, some due to the new CV prevalence, some due to a combination of both:

 

- More CVs mean you are spotted more often anyway, so CE is not the big ticket anymore to pop up out of nowhere.

- Enemy cruisers are also spotted more often and earlier due to CVs and CE nerf. They might hang back more and overall play more cautious, having less chance to HE-spam.

- Cruiser players will react to the CV threat and some of them will change their builds, using more AA mods and BFT instead of DE, lowering their fire chance.

- Changing your BB build yourself towards AA is now much more attractive, even more so as it synergizes with secondaries. With BFT and AFT you can have good AA while going for a secondaries build.

- The concealment nerf affects all cruisers and BBs on your team, some of which will not use CE anymore. So if you don't have CE you are not the only one being spotted early and you don't risk being a priority target that much.

- If other team mates focus more on AA, you don't want to be a ship with weak AA, being the CV's punching bag.

 

One could sum it up saying, it's more reasonable to go with the flow.

 

That doesn't mean a full secondaries build is now the best option, but a hybrid build could be the current optimum. I don't know if that's true, it's a hypothesis and we need to wait for a new equilibrium to evolve. I would imagine a build SI, FP and AFT. Then there is the option to add BFT and either EM or JOAT. Or go more into the survival direction with BoS and JOAT. Or you go for manSec and invest the last point into DCCA for a minor increase in AA.

 

There are downsides, too. If all your teammates are more visible, being concealed becomes more valuable. But all together that CE nerf did what WG intended. It makes CE less of a compulsory skill and opens up your options.

 

 

[DuneDreamer]

53 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

Changing your BB build yourself towards AA is now much more attractive

I'm not sure about that. Someone said recently in a YT video that we only see excessive use of carriers these days because people are testing the new carrier gameplay and that in a few weeks time we won't see that many as the carrier update/patch isn't that successful.

 

Another thing that troubles me about GK is that I have to give up a lot of broadside in order to fire all the guns. This isn't the case with other battleships. Apart from that, I noticed that the AP damage of GK is the same as the AP damage of Montana, even though GK uses a larger caliber (420mm). However, Montana angles better while still being able to fire all 12 guns. The size of GK is yet another concern...

[HaachamaShipping]

Edit: Nvm.

[HMS_Kilinowski]

14 hours ago, DuneDreamer said:

I'm not sure about that. Someone said recently in a YT video that we only see excessive use of carriers these days because people are testing the new carrier gameplay and that in a few weeks time we won't see that many as the carrier update/patch isn't that successful.

Quite possible. That's why I hypothesize. Nobody can currently see where the game is going. They reworked CVs but obviously WG misread the symptoms. They thought the problem was CVs being too complicated and hard to master yet very rewarding when players did. That was merely one side of the story. For all other players it was an uneven fight as CV players got a high skill ceiling whereas AA-builds are pretty independent of player skills. A bad player in an AA-ship can shred planes, while even the best players with weak AA could not do much better, e.g. avoid being crosstorped.

14 hours ago, DuneDreamer said:

Another thing that troubles me about GK is that I have to give up a lot of broadside in order to fire all the guns. This isn't the case with other battleships. Apart from that, I noticed that the AP damage of GK is the same as the AP damage of Montana, even though GK uses a larger caliber (420mm). However, Montana angles better while still being able to fire all 12 guns. The size of GK is yet another concern...

The bigger caliber still means you can pen at a small angle where the smaller sized shells of the Monti would bounce. Not a decisive advantage, I admit. The other thing is, she still is extremely tanky. Whenever I put a variety of BBs into a training room to test a new ship, the GK lasts longer than all other ships. Even at ranges and angels where you would think a citadel hit is sure to happen, nothing.

 

Anyway what you state is not an argument of how to build a GK, it is an argument of "should you get the GK at all?" Montana is very prevalent in Clan Battles. You don't see GK that much and I don't remember many CB where the GK was used to its strengths. Although you will see anecdotal evidence of its effectiveness, the big picture is that GK is less effective than all other BBs in the current meta.

[rnat]

32 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

Anyway what you state is not an argument of how to build a GK, it is an argument of "should you get the GK at all?" Montana is very prevalent in Clan Battles. You don't see GK that much and I don't remember many CB where the GK was used to its strengths. Although you will see anecdotal evidence of its effectiveness, the big picture is that GK is less effective than all other BBs in the current meta.

CBs favour a mid-ultra long range engagement, so accurate BBs with a heavy broadside are favoured there. Neither GK nor Conq nor, presumably Kreml would do well in that environment.

It's still a decent BB overall, but the GK only really comes to it's own when it gets to use it's incredible tankyness and good reload, not so much in a campy meta.

[DuneDreamer]

1 hour ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

Anyway what you state is not an argument of how to build a GK, it is an argument of "should you get the GK at all?"

I already got the ship and I'm trying to compare it to my other tier 10 BBs (I have them all). I play Yamato and Republique the most and I'm trying to figure out how I can play GK in a way that I get similar results with it. 

It may be an argument of "should you get the GK" for someone that doesn't have it though. Clearly, it is not my favorite BB at the moment because of being too large (easy to hit), having to expose too much broadside to use all guns and having small range for a tier 10 BB. All this is only compensated by a good hydro and some tankiness.

4 hours ago, Seiranko said:

Edit: Nvm.

I completely agree with your main point!

[affie]

I am running secondary builds with my Bismarck and Alsace, the later with IFHE. But what I having problems deciding rigth now is the superintendent vs basic firing training.

 

The pros are for SI, more sustain against fire damage and light damage in general versus the BFT giving extra AA as well as faster secondaries. Has any one any suggestion if one of these been more favourable after 0.8.0?

[DoomDutch]

22 minutes ago, affie said:

I am running secondary builds with my Bismarck and Alsace, the later with IFHE. But what I having problems deciding rigth now is the superintendent vs basic firing training.

 

The pros are for SI, more sustain against fire damage and light damage in general versus the BFT giving extra AA as well as faster secondaries. Has any one any suggestion if one of these been more favourable after 0.8.0?

For now I'd say and wait a little while for the new meta to be constructed. If CV's truly became a force to be reckoned with, you may want to get BFT for the AA.

[affie]

2 hours ago, DoomDutch said:

For now I'd say and wait a little while for the new meta to be constructed. If CV's truly became a force to be reckoned with, you may want to get BFT for the AA.

Maybe it is time to skip CE and go for both BFT and SI instead on Bismarck? 

 

But for Alsace I will have to chose, +10% or fifth heal, that fith heal is rarely used it feels like,but when used it is very nice to have...

[Srle_Vigilante]

Here's the one i use, since i personally find that taking IFHE takes away more then it gives.

Spoiler

 

[DuneDreamer]

1 hour ago, Srle_Vigilante said:

Here's the one i use, since i personally find that taking IFHE takes away more then it gives.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Man, you must be burning like a funeral pyre.

[Srle_Vigilante]

12 hours ago, DuneDreamer said:

Man, you must be burning like a funeral pyre.

 

Gotta make sure that my enemies know that i'm coming, you know 

 

 

[Mydgard]

Long ago we tested Goku IFHE secondary vs. Goku secondary  vs. Yamato secondary against each others in training room, distance was 8km between them, paralel, only secondary hits + use repair party when that was possible. Our experiences were:

- Yamato ate both Goku, he kept 50% HP, he has the strongest secondary armament.

- simple secondary Goku won against IFHE Goku, because higher firing chance cause more fires ergo more fire damage. 

 

When we made this test, french BBs wasn't in tech tree, so Republique should be added to a new test.

[MRGTB]

On 10/8/2018 at 10:56 AM, HMS_Kilinowski said:

That would not make any sense, pretty much like making a tanky build and taking Survivability Expert,

Is it really worth taking Survivability Expert on a T10 Battleship? You will only gain 350HP from it on the ship. I see the point of taking it on a T7 or less tier ship when 350HP can be a decent boost to a  DD or Cruiser. But 350 HP on a T10 Battleship is neither here nor there really, one shot from another T10 BB can wipe that out instantly and much more besides. Just seems a waste of 3 points to put that on a T10 BB.
 

I mean...think about it. Putting 350HP on a T5 or 6 DD would be a lot and the ship benefits from it, but putting that on a T10 BB is literally nothing considering the damage other ships of that same tier level take off you with landed shots.

[MRGTB]

On 2/13/2019 at 3:07 PM, affie said:

But what I having problems deciding rigth now is the superintendent vs basic firing training.

 

Well you can always gain the extra heal using the premium upgrade, but you can't gain a faster fire rate on secondary using any module or upgrade on Bismark. So BFT is what I would pick first before SI, then if feeling you need that extra health charge in some games. Then simply use the premium upgrade at times to get it.

 

The only time I would pick SI over BFT on Bismark. If you don't do the secondary build and instead go for a full survivability build.