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DuneDreamer

Conqueror's AA problem

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I just experienced something I didn't believe was possible. I was playing with my conqueror in a game against Midway. The carrier was able to attack me twice with torpedo bombers and sink my ship while my conqueror was only able to down 1 plane at the very last moment. My AA defense rating was 93 and I've been using the AA Guns Modification 2 upgrade. How was that possible? Was that a problem with the ship, and if not, how can I fix it?

 

Almost forgot to ask the second question or should I say two ... Is there a way to determine how many AA guns are destroyed or remain intact during play? Were my AA guns destroyed prior to the two Midway attacks?
 

aa.png

result.png

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[SDS7]
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A person who has been banned in the forum for a year has sent me the following explanation on the topic:

 

Quote

Conq has barely any AA (even when fully spec'd for it) at the best of times, and while it's not as vulnerable as on the ships before it just a couple HE salvos (even from CLs) will wipe your light AA guns - which make up 88.6% of your AA dps - regardless of any upgrades you may have mounted to increase their survivability.

 

Everything air based has always been a weakness of the Conq and RN BB line at t7 and higher as a whole

 

 

 

And then there's the fact that "shooting down a plane" part does have some RNG in it.

Full explanation would be hellishly long, but approximate basics are:

  • Planes don't have HP that they can lose, they simply are either alive or dead
  • The chance of you shooting down a plane is based on your dps vs that planes listed HP, for example 20 dps vs 100 hp plane should average about 5s per kill
    • Note the "should" part - it's not guaranteed. Effectively you have a 20/100 = 1/5 = 20% chance to shoot it down at any second, that's still just a chance
      • There are some extra multipliers aswell, but lets just ignore them for the sake of simplicity
  • The chance itself isn't static - if you are shooting planes down too fast your chance decreases, while if you are shooting them down too slowly your chance increases
    • While I don't know the exact amount if I remember correctly you can't go above 90% chance to shoot a plane down, no matter what your AA is. I'm assuming there should also be some "minimal %" that you can't go below

 

Oh, and always remember to Ctrl + Click the plane squad, that gives you 30% extra dps against it and makes your AA focus it (each AA aura can focus just 1 target at a time).

US BB (or US ship in general - as CAs, CLs and DDs are great at it aswell) "flavor" is AA.

 

Another thing that matters is the AA mounts themselves (some ships can have them more "survivable" - as in better armoured, simply having more hp (they just like all modules a=have their own HP pools) or something) and where those AA guns are placed.

 

For example look at the Lion - nearly everything AA wise is located on and between its 2 superstructures. 1 HE salvo there, and Lion goes from "this is some of the best AA of the tier" right down to "a tier 4 ship would be ashamed of this little AA". Conqs very similar to that, having its AA massively grouped up in the mid-section. Meanwhile if you look at Montana that AA is more evenly spread around the ship.

Another example is Yamato - her AA guns are really focused in the midsection of the ship just like on RN BBs (you can see that cluster of turrets) but most of them are encased in turrets granting them quite a lot of protection. This, again, makes it very different from Conq survivability wise.

 

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Beta Tester
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2,282 battles

I cannot answer your first question, but for your second question; Press "H" in battle and you will find how many of your guns are still intact.

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[SDS7]
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10 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

I cannot answer your first question, but for your second question; Press "H" in battle and you will find how many of your guns are still intact.

Thank you for your suggestion. I'll check it.

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[OM]
Beta Tester, WoWs Wiki Team
3,205 posts
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Most of Conq's AA guns are easy to destroy with HE, so it is very likely that you lost too many to shoot down enough planes.

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[HAIFU]
Beta Tester
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You can watch the replay back and check the status of your AA at the time with H, as previously mentioned it's likely most of them were knocked out as they're quite concentrated on Conq.

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1 hour ago, Benser said:

You can watch the replay back and check the status of your AA at the time with H, as previously mentioned it's likely most of them were knocked out as they're quite concentrated on Conq.

I don't have the replays enabled.

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[HAIFU]
Beta Tester
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If you still have the client open the battle report can tell you under damaged modules.

image.thumb.png.1d6863929bdd2b441ae1279e820b6994.png

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[SDS7]
Players
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43 minutes ago, Benser said:

If you still have the client open the battle report can tell you under damaged modules.

image.thumb.png.1d6863929bdd2b441ae1279e820b6994.png

If I count correctly, a conqueror has 35 defense modules. Yet, it was able to down only one plane even when using the upgrade for extended AA range.

 

modules.png

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Weekend Tester
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15 minutes ago, DuneDreamer said:

If I count correctly, a conqueror has 35 defense modules. Yet, it was able to down only one plane even when using the upgrade for extended AA range.

 

modules.png

 

It's two thirds of your AA, ist of which was the high damage ones in from of bofors leaving mostly your meh long range dpaa. 

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12 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

It's two thirds of your AA, ist of which was the high damage ones in from of bofors leaving mostly your meh long range dpaa. 

 

Well, I mounted the upgrade Auxiliary Armament Modification 1, which was meant to protect the AA guns and played another game but the result was the same - a similar number of destroyed AA guns. I wonder if the conqueror has a unique problem with its AA defenses and whether I can do something to fix this issue.

upgrades.png

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[HAIFU]
Beta Tester
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Conq does have reasonable but vulnerable AA, there's not much you can do about that.

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[SDS7]
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15 minutes ago, Benser said:

Conq does have reasonable but vulnerable AA, there's not much you can do about that.

I'll create a ticket for WG, asking them to put more sandbags around AA guns. :)

  • Funny 1

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[DUXTR]
Alpha Tester
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10 minutes ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

It does help, but not enough.

Weird that something that says 100% isn't 100%

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[SDS7]
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7 minutes ago, siramra said:

Weird that something that says 100% isn't 100%

 

100% increased survivability means that the AA defenses are twice as durable but not indestructible. At least, this is how I understand it.

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[DUXTR]
Alpha Tester
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6 minutes ago, DuneDreamer said:

 

100% increased survivability means that the AA defenses are twice as durable but not indestructible. At least, this is how I understand it.

So in short it is 200%. Well, if it had said reduces chance of destruction by 100%. Damn.....lol

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Weekend Tester
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2 hours ago, DuneDreamer said:

 

 I wonder if the conqueror has a unique problem with its AA defenses and whether I can do something to fix this issue.

upgrades.png

 

Absolutely not.

You can blame WG for introducing a branch of BBs which suggested players to use devastatingly powerful HE shells on all BBs.
HE shells that can wipe out 20 mounts per salvo.

1 hour ago, DuneDreamer said:
Quote

Conq has barely any AA

 

 

close to 600 dps at 3.5km is barely any AA.
Well ok then.

 

That's how we get insane AA powercreep pseudo "balanced" by idiotically powerful HE shell splash, making targets be either free kills or unapproachable AA bastions of doom.

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[SDS7]
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32 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

Absolutely not.

You can blame WG for introducing a branch of BBs which suggested players to use devastatingly powerful HE shells on all BBs.
HE shells that can wipe out 20 mounts per salvo.

 

 

WG, I blame you!

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13 hours ago, Exocet6951 said:

close to 600 dps at 3.5km is barely any AA.

 

That doesn't do anything agasint fast high tier bombers. You need 2000+ to protect yourself at those short ranges.

 

Tier 10 CVs can alpha full spec AA cruisers, I'd forget all AA buffs and concentrated on fighting the other 11 ships.

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2 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

 

That doesn't do anything agasint fast high tier bombers. You need 2000+ to protect yourself at those short ranges.

 

It's still not nothing.
I'm able to shoot down 2-3 planes with a quarter of that with a Z-52.

Seriously, we've gone from "300 dps at 3.5km and 150dps at 5km makes the Montanta an AA MONSTER" to "500dps at 3.5km and 70dps at 5km is barely anything" in less than 2 years !!
There are ships that make the DM's AA look tame in comparison.


This sort of "Conqueror barely has any AA" is incredibly damaging to the game, because it forces the devs to absolutely minmax the hell out of everything just to have branches that are halfway attractive to the ever more demanding playerbase.

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AA power moved to long range DP secondaries, short/mid range AA mounts are irrelevant.

 

Honestly, Montana never had good AA agasint good CV players. Hopefully the complete rework will make it more sensible.

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