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Thracen

Japanese T9 BBs

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So I have come back from a long hiatus, I'm really enjoying being back although there is clearly much to catch up on.

 

I heard the Izumo had been buffed so I restarted that grind. There is no doubt she is less fragile to HE, but I always countered that with positioning anyway. The problem I have with her are the guns, on paper they should be fantastic? But they feel like the worst BB guns I've used north of t6. Hell I prefer the Kongos! So if anyone can give me help on getting these guns singing I would appreciate it. They seem to have some quirk with me that makes them terrible in comparison to anything else I shoot.

 

Now the Musashi, the other slap in the face to Izumo drivers. Does anyone at all know how to deal with these things in a BB?

 

You cannot bow tank

You cannot angle

You cannot rush

You cannot out range her

 

So what can you do other the run? 

 

I turned to face a half health Musashi in a nearly full health Missouri. I had 10ish km to cover. I got crit though the bow and sunk in two salvos. (had to try something we were losing)

 

So please. How do I get the Izumo to work? and How do I get the Musashi down on the surface with mortal ships?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Thrace

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4 minutes ago, Thracen said:

You cannot angle

 

Not commenting on Izumo, since i dont have her but:

You can angle - always. If you park full nose in, he will overmatch it. If you are however showing a bit broadside, so that he shoots you there, you can turn a bit into his shells and bounce them off your main belt armor :fish_book:

 

Example with Missouri:

Yamato shoots my belt, gets one overpen (superstructure 1480).

 

5baf5c447b633_yamato1.thumb.jpg.c40ea01fc921db0c2485f186aa238baa.jpg

5baf5c48ac44f_yamato2.thumb.jpg.2fb17ed0624cdd6fb88afe21df92b7b4.jpg

 

Musashi and Yamato will easily die when they cant angle. So you have to get them from 2 sides basicly. Or HE spam / Torps, sometimes you have to rely on your teammates.

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Positioning, Positioning, Positioning....

 

Musashi is basicly Yamato guns on Tier IX. Treat her like that.

 

Izumo has deadly guns, but you have to think thrice when to bring all three turrets to bear on enemy. Izumos sides are weak. Try to keep her moving. Standing still gets her sunk.

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no idea what your problem is with Izumo guns, they are as good as they look on paper. Among the best pen of all BBs, and IJN accuracy ain't bad at all (for BB standards, obviously). The combination of these two does mean that they need you to aim them well, but that's about all I can think of...

And Musashis have exactly one thing going for them: their overmatch capacity. Flank them, and they die like flies (hooray for Yamato class being pretty much the only high tier BBs with an exposed citadel).

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42 minutes ago, Thracen said:

You cannot angle

 

 

Hermelin can angle against Yamato if you do it right and get lucky with the old bounce on belt-thingy.

 

Still ....... I do hate Izumo. Its defo no gangster-car for driveby like Amagi and suffers in the current T10 meta of "camp and delete shitcruiser".

 

So WG ofc buffed it by largely making her immune to HE spam - you know the most retárded way possible. I mean we cant have BBs move around. They all need to sit next to island/border be immune to HE/AP-citadels (not Izumo obviously but BBs at large) and then delete shitcruisers all over the map.  All that pos really needed was the same turret setup as Nelson with all 3 turrets facing forward - which the Japanese considered in one of their proposals. Since this is a paper ship its just WGs arbitrary BS decision pick the one with the rear facing turret.

Ofc it take that special kind of group of devs to still clinge to that BS decision after years. I guess they got good training with OP CVs, the broken áss CV UI and the damage model in general.

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I thought that was the thing to do, bait a broadsideish shot and turn in. But in all my attempts it has never, ever happened for me. They either pen anyways or go straight through the bow anyways. And as for flanking sure, I agree, I know the weak points on a yammy/mushashi, but how the F to you get to them when you have that distance to close under those lol pen guns. Islands? why would a musashi be there when they can sit in spawn with clear sight lines? Stealth? Sure if there have entirely run out of team mates, but that doesn't happen much either.

 

To put it simply. She gets to dictate the terms of engagement, and the terms are "run or die". 

 

Maybe the Izumo guns don't work for me because I'm used to slower shells in other BBs? I don't think I'm a bad player, though and you'd think 20 or so matches into the grind I would have adjusted. I seem to just get bounces or over pens, I'll tell you the number of times I've put 3 rounds over and 3 rounds under a ship with a 6 gun volley would make you want to throw up, and at medium range too! The only good damage numbers I get from her are when I get a German BB broadside on the belt. Thats kinda it.

 

Oh and the gap in damage between the Musahi and an Izumo is damn right shameful for wargaming to be sure. Your free exp ship nets you an additional 29088 damage per round over the standard line. Literally the bottom and top of their tier and class.

 

So do you guys think there is a problem here or is it just me being old?

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24 minutes ago, Thracen said:

Oh and the gap in damage between the Musahi and an Izumo is damn right shameful for wargaming to be sure. Your free exp ship nets you an additional 29088 damage per round over the standard line. Literally the bottom and top of their tier and class.

 

I wouldnt put too much emphasis on that stat tbh. For many, the Izumo is just a must-grind on the way to the Yamato. Its not a keeper, since you got other, much better options to keep as a T9 BB - f.e. the Musashi. Not only can you use the same nations captain - you can also share it with the Yamato. And you make more credits with playing Mushashi then Yamato/Izumo. That why hardly anyone (especially the more experianced players, that are able to get Musashi), keep Izumo. A part of Izumo games are also A-Hull and even bigger part pre-Buff. The FdG falls in the same category - I dont really know anyone that likes to play that ship, let alone is keeping it after the grind. But ofc Musashi is the better ship, compared to the Izumo, not going to deny that.

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Ok I see what you are saying. However, I would argue the fact that less people play it if anything would increase the stats since the people playing it either love the ship or are straight grinding and getting used to it.

 

Secondly, the fact that it is miserable to play and everything else in class is better both in stats and fun is part of the problem! 

 

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what other t9 bb? wasn't izumo is the only t9? just because musashi has t9 icon its still a t10 :D

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46 minutes ago, Thracen said:

Secondly, the fact that it is miserable to play and everything else in class is better both in stats and fun is part of the problem! 

 

Friedrich der Große and Iowa are pretty much exactly the same, stat-wise.

 

48 minutes ago, Thracen said:

However, I would argue the fact that less people play it if anything would increase the stats since the people playing it either love the ship

 

The people, that keep playing it more then necessary are pretty "meh" https://wows-numbers.com/de/ship/4272895696,Izumo/?order=battles__desc#leaderboard

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So what we are saying is: The izumo is a terrible experience, just like some other t9s and that is fine, and the fact that Musashi makes the Izumo look like wilted toilet tissue is also fine?

 

Damn, no wonder wargaming does these sort of things. Apparently it is fine :D

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23 minutes ago, Thracen said:

So what we are saying is: The izumo is a terrible experience, just like some other t9s and that is fine, and the fact that Musashi makes the Izumo look like wilted toilet tissue is also fine?

 

Nah, what im saying is:

- The big gap in stats between the T9 BBs is partly due to the fact, that people grind (partly stock) silver BBs, while Musashi is fully equipped and a keeper.

- All T9 silver BBs are pretty much equal in results, especially KM, IJN and US.

- With things like Missouri, Musashi and ofc T10 BBs + the T9 matchmaking, which is usualy in T10 games, many players dont view T9 BBs as keepers.

- Where would be the point if Izumo would be better then Musashi? Musashi is a sort of a reward ship, it needs something going for it. Why else people would grind free XP for it and spent it on the Musashi?

- And im pretty much only explaining the reality, stating facts. Has nothing to do with my personal view on those things.

 

37 minutes ago, Thracen said:

Damn, no wonder wargaming does these sort of things. Apparently it is fine :D

 

Im not exactly sure, what are you aiming at. Apperently, Izumo needs to be stronger or atleast equal to Musashi. So that would make Izumo equal to Yamato. And Izumo would be in another League then FdG and Iowa. Not even to mention, what Izumo would do to ships at T8, let alone T7. So we could dump all T8 Premiums on the dump, simply cuz Izumo would wipe em?

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1 hour ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

- Where would be the point if Izumo would be better then Musashi? Musashi is a sort of a reward ship, it needs something going for it. Why else people would grind free XP for it and spent it on the Musashi?

- And im pretty much only explaining the reality, stating facts. Has nothing to do with my personal view on those things.

1

and this is wrong, you should not buy a premium because is a ship superior to it's peers, you should buy them to farm credits. This is the problem with wows and wots in the last few years. Before 2016 came around every premium thank in wot was always a bit worse than his counterpart at the same tier ( tier 8 premium were called 7.5 in fact). Then they started powercreeping everything into oblivion ( harogumo and incoming daring I'm looking at you), and so are with premiums ( and here  in wows the list is quite long and is a high percentage of the premium ships overall that are questionable balance wise). This should not be ok, but for everyone it is becoming the norm, and is so wrong as a concept (pay to win)

Quote

 

 

Im not exactly sure, what are you aiming at. Apperently, Izumo needs to be stronger or atleast equal to Musashi. So that would make Izumo equal to Yamato. And Izumo would be in another League then FdG and Iowa. Not even to mention, what Izumo would do to ships at T8, let alone T7. So we could dump all T8 Premiums on the dump, simply cuz Izumo would wipe em?

izumo need a quality of life improvement, it's need the nelson's turrets layout

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4 minutes ago, Flavio1997 said:

and this is wrong, you should not buy a premium because is a ship superior to it's peers, you should buy them to farm credits.

 

The people, that have 750k free XP, dont need credits either. Also, Musashi is not a premium per say. You literally have no problem getting it without ever investing a single cent into the game. And the question remains: If Musashi would be so bad - why would people put their free XP into it? Already at the current state, some people suggest to spend the free XP on unlocking the Yamato instead of getting the Musashi.

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I got my Musashi yesterday and didn't need a single fxp, using Coal, Steel and a 25% discount voucher to obtain her.. I had the opportunity to get a game in her with a level 19 commander, loads of ECXP to play with.. 30km gun range and omg the power of her guns. Deleted a Roon with a single salvo getting 3 citadel hits, deleted the enemy Musashi 1v1 losing only 30k health, deleted a Yeuyang again with 1 salvo and a Minotaur with her secondaries which at 10.6km are pretty decent... so that's 4 ships.. Game was a defeat but very satisfied with what I see and I survived.

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Just now, ForlornSailor said:

 

The people, that have 750k free XP, dont need credits either.

 

1

o yeah....my kronstad didn't make me 180 milions credit that i used to buy 9 tier 10 ships. I had the kronstad before having my 2nd tier 10, and i have never spent gold on xp conversion. That's a  weak argument

Just now, ForlornSailor said:

 

 And the question remains: If Musashi would be so bad - why would people put their free XP into it? Already at the current state, some people suggest to spend the free XP on unlocking the Yamato instead of getting the Musashi.

1

because it prints the credits you need to buy the Yamato (and the others tier 10). It's the same reason why you did buy the kv-5 or the is-6 in wot, and they sold a crapton of them.

 

Musashi would need his reload to be 35 secs base, like it was for the Yamato in alpha. You would cut his dmg by 1/7, and that would cut his avg damage by 10k damage  (more or less) bringing it in line with the other ships. Yamato at tier 10 needs that accuracy  and the lolpen because is the ships with fewer guns  among it's peers ( Republique doesn't count because it has the same shell output/minutes than the others)

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Second game in Musashi.. 27km Citadel hit on Amagi off the bat, 3 citadels on a Missouri, bye Missouri and 1 off a Roon. Killed Grosse and Mo, took Roon down to 4k hp, survived again with hardly a scratch.. Well worth getting especially with 30.7km Main armament range. If this is the Yamato in T9 then I can grind my Amagi and take my time.. My fxp is 440,00 and I am going for Kron...

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Screenshot (302).png

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I always thought the consensus on premiums is that they should try to offer something different over raw power. Apparently people expect to be buying power, which is exactly the point I was making with my "apparently it is fine" comment.

 

Other less important uses, are as trainers and credit earners but being so good as to make their tier mates an absolute joke? No, I'm sorry but I think this situation needs fixing.

 

I've made it through a few different t9s, none have been worse than the Izumo, my list includes the ibuki, and being spanked regularly by a Musashi and to even get told in spawn as a match starts that we are going to lose because my use of an Izumo, almost guarantees a negative match up.

 

For anecdotal evidence:

Amagi stats: 

WR                 PR       Avg Damage

63.16% 2 196 90 143

 

Izumo stats:

WR              PR        Avg Damage

62.5% 1 784 75 631

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

The people, that have 750k free XP, dont need credits either. Also, Musashi is not a premium per say. You literally have no problem getting it without ever investing a single cent into the game. And the question remains: If Musashi would be so bad - why would people put their free XP into it? Already at the current state, some people suggest to spend the free XP on unlocking the Yamato instead of getting the Musashi.

People suggest it not because they think it is bad, but because it basically is a down-tiered but with T9 MM will end in mostly T10 games anyway. And when in T10, you might as well go for the real deal. Or you are like me and feel like saving up for ships that actually seem more novel. Doesn't change the fact though that Musashi, just like Missouri, is pretty much just OP.

 

And frankly, no, they shouldn't be outperforming their tech tree cousins. The reason why people should get them is the interesting experience, not because the ships are OP af. And the credits they can print. If you say Missouri wasn't a consideration for many because of its credit potential and Musashi/Kronshtadt are often viewed as the next best thing now that Missouri is unavailable, well, you might have missed something.

 

One issue I see, is that with how MM goes, T9 premiums get overtuned into T9.5 ones, because WG want to give people ships that feel like they are still competitive in T10 matches which T9s will mostly face. But then they should make it T10 from the start, imo. It's the same crap that netted us Giulio that got all the tools to stay relevant even when faced with the piss poor T5 MM that pits the ship mostly vs T7. If WG wants to offer T9 premiums, it would be great if they gave an incentive to play the tier in general beyond grinding, not to play specific overtuned ships. Doesn't help that a good few ships are basically just prototypes of T10s, which you don't keep for the gameplay experience (e.g. few would argue Roon is bad, yet upon reaching Hindenburg, is there a point? Hoping for the few matches vs T7 or what?).

 

In this regard, ships like Kronshtadt or Alaska offer at least something novel, though they'd need to be balanced. 

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33 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

People suggest it not because they think it is bad, but because it basically is a down-tiered but with T9 MM will end in mostly T10 games anyway. And when in T10, you might as well go for the real deal.

 

So if you´d nerf it down - there would be zero reasons anymore to suggest investing 750k free XP into it. Exactly my point.

 

34 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

If you say Missouri wasn't a consideration for many because of its credit potential and Musashi/Kronshtadt are often viewed as the next best thing now that Missouri is unavailable, well, you might have missed something.

 

You obviously missed me not saying that tho...

 

1 hour ago, Thracen said:

I always thought the consensus on premiums is that they should try to offer something different over raw power. Apparently people expect to be buying power, which is exactly the point I was making with my "apparently it is fine" comment.

 

Other less important uses, are as trainers and credit earners but being so good as to make their tier mates an absolute joke? No, I'm sorry but I think this situation needs fixing.

 

I thought we are talking reality and not what we think it should be like? Thats how the thread started atleast. Now you are drifting and blaming me for it. weird. We went from "how to angle with Izumo" to "Mushashi needs to be nerfed cuz OP af". weird². And, quite frankly, whats the interesting experiance in the Musashi then? Its a freakin Yamato. There is nothing interesting, nothing different, nothing new. Im starting to get the impression, this wasnt a "help me to get better"-thread but rather "mimi, I got sunk by a premium" (which isnt a real premium anyway).

 

Last thing: Take a step back to reality. We are a couple of years into the game. We dont need premium ships as captain-traniers anymore. We dont need premiumships to print credits anymore. And if you need credits ingame, you can always open your wallet. Or you go play Operations and do 3 million credits in 2 hours with a Mahan, just like I did this evening. Without putting creditflags an AND paying 75k every round to not have to wait 30 min. Again - reality-check - thats how this game runs. If you dont like it, I suggest dont give me an attitude, just for stating the obvious, but bark on the correct tree.

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4 hours ago, Flavio1997 said:

because it prints the credits you need to buy the Yamato (and the others tier 10)

 

4 hours ago, Flavio1997 said:

o yeah....my kronstad didn't make me 180 milions credit that i used to buy 9 tier 10 ships. I had the kronstad before having my 2nd tier 10, and i have never spent gold on xp conversion. That's a  weak argument

 

Cuz you needed it? I didnt need it. Never used XP-conversion, never bought credits, never had to farm Credits with any of the free XP-Ships, never ran out for credits, not even close. And got all the ships I wanted / which are researched to T10. So there is experiance vs experiance. Using your logic, I can call your case a weak argument aswell now ;)

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44 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

 If WG wants to offer T9 premiums, it would be great if they gave an incentive to play the tier in general beyond grinding, not to play specific overtuned ships. Doesn't help that a good few ships are basically just prototypes of T10s, which you don't keep for the gameplay experience (e.g. few would argue Roon is bad, yet upon reaching Hindenburg, is there a point? Hoping for the few matches vs T7 or what?).

 

Well, maybe they didnt really find a way to make that happen, so they make good Premium ships (training captains, farming credits and such)? Basicly if you play division, and one takes a Missouri, then others can pick a T9 ship aswell. Sure you can go with T10 ship, but then you will never be toptier.

If, at some point, noone is playing T9 anymore, then most matches would be T8 + T10 or T10 alone. By the logic of not playing T9, what is the logic for playing most lower tiers? T8 gets screwed so often why would you ever want to play it, except some OP ships like Kutuzov. T7... sure, has great ships, is toptier quite often. T6? Hell no, that tier is very balanced within each other, but not worth playing since you will face T7 most of the time anyway. T5? Apart from OP premiums again :Smile_trollface:

Below that... sealclubbing at its finest. Shits and giggles id say.

 

So far i kept my T9 ships - except FDG. This thing is so uber garbage there is no need to keep it. Neptune is nice, alltho it could need some love. Roon... well, probably took a backseat to Kroni now - potentially Alaska when i get it. (if its FreeXP).

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3 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

By the logic of not playing T9, what is the logic for playing most lower tiers? T8 gets screwed so often why would you ever want to play it, except some OP ships like Kutuzov. T7... sure, has great ships, is toptier quite often. T6? Hell no, that tier is very balanced within each other, but not worth playing since you will face T7 most of the time anyway. T5? Apart from OP premiums again :Smile_trollface:

Below that... sealclubbing at its finest. Shits and giggles id say.

Sadly, that is mostly becoming a thing. For T8, I have ships from better days and the few times I play the tier, I take ships I feel comfortable enough in to potentially go vs T10. T8 premiums though... well, it's either gimmick DDs, cruisers with repair party (or Kutuzov) so it doesn't just get vaporised as easily or BBs... where really the only T8 BBs I'd even consider personally are Kii (AA and I bought it on heavy discount) and Massachusetts for playing outside ranked. Tirpitz? Why play a Bismarck that is worse unless you manage to rush the T10s at less than 6 km? Alabama or Gascogne? To me not worth 45 Euro just for being basically the same as the tech tree counterparts.

T7 premiums are fun.

T6 premiums I'd not recommend to anyone without the disclaimer about MM and mostly just for people who don't have the money for T7. There's basically two T6 premiums I actually play somewhat, which are Graf Spee and Perth. And I usually expect a challenge. Something like Warspite, despite being a good ship, I would find hard to recommend, because the frequent uptiering makes it fragile.

T5... Giulio. Oktyabrskaya is at times OP and free. 

 

I played T5 a bit the past few days to compare T5 ships for upcoming Ranked. And holy damn, it can be brutal. Very fun being a König getting thrown into a match vs 2 Gneisenaus and 1 Scharnhorst. Or two Independences. You can be unicum, if these people know what they are doing, your death is inevitable and basically a matter of how long it takes them to notice you.

 

So, yeah, I do view the T8 premiums and T5-6 premiums rapidly not being worth the money that WG asks for them. But I do not think that's to be fixed by making premiums that can get uptiered without too much suffering (frequently outperforming tech tree counterparts and/or being straight up OP), but by addressing the matchmaking, because when I queue in a T5, I kind of expect to suffer and can try to still matter by playing my ship better. But newer folks who reach T5 likely just get frustrated by the unexpected hardship. But it's so like WG to have a MM that frustrates most tiers, then offer overtuned premiums for these tiers.

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2 hours ago, Riselotte said:

People suggest it not because they think it is bad, but because it basically is a down-tiered but with T9 MM will end in mostly T10 games anyway. And when in T10, you might as well go for the real deal. Or you are like me and feel like saving up for ships that actually seem more novel. Doesn't change the fact though that Musashi, just like Missouri, is pretty much just OP.

 

And frankly, no, they shouldn't be outperforming their tech tree cousins. The reason why people should get them is the interesting experience, not because the ships are OP af. And the credits they can print. If you say Missouri wasn't a consideration for many because of its credit potential and Musashi/Kronshtadt are often viewed as the next best thing now that Missouri is unavailable, well, you might have missed something.

 

One issue I see, is that with how MM goes, T9 premiums get overtuned into T9.5 ones, because WG want to give people ships that feel like they are still competitive in T10 matches which T9s will mostly face. But then they should make it T10 from the start, imo. It's the same crap that netted us Giulio that got all the tools to stay relevant even when faced with the piss poor T5 MM that pits the ship mostly vs T7. If WG wants to offer T9 premiums, it would be great if they gave an incentive to play the tier in general beyond grinding, not to play specific overtuned ships. Doesn't help that a good few ships are basically just prototypes of T10s, which you don't keep for the gameplay experience (e.g. few would argue Roon is bad, yet upon reaching Hindenburg, is there a point? Hoping for the few matches vs T7 or what?).

 

In this regard, ships like Kronshtadt or Alaska offer at least something novel, though they'd need to be balanced. 

Isn't part of the problem of tier 9 ships that these are often quite underpowered compared to their tier 10 and tier 8 cousins?

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