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Fat_Maniac

Are DD's the area of denial class ?

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When I started the game over a year ago, I always believed part of the BB role was area of denial. You position your BB to cover channels and routes through to caps or your teams flanks etc.

 

Just about every ship build I see this days be it a  BB's , CA, CL, or DD seems to include Concealment as the first 4pt skill, either because you need it for your ship to function, or to have any chance of surviving and getting into a useful position. It seems to have become the new SA skill (pre my days in game, but I've heard Situational Awareness used to be a skill).

 

The game seems to have descended into an out spotting competition. Whoever can out spot the enemy wins . This seems to lead to everyone running away from or avoiding, anything that can out spot them. The result being that a stealthy DD is now the true area of denial class, everyone seems to want to avoid advancing or pushing until they are certain there is no DD in the way. Whilst he can keep you spotted and stay hidden himself (assuming he isn't stupid and gives his position away), he gives his team the opportunity to kill the enemy, and if he uses torps he can force a turn leading to the inevitable quick death as you expose your juicy broadside.

 

Obviously the above is a generalization and things like radar, hydro, and current RTS CV's all have an impact, but I was wondering what you all think?

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[UTW]
Weekend Tester, In AlfaTesters
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This game is about positioning in the first place. Of course everyone and their mother will take CE. It's just the most important ability of the game : map control. With CE you can come closer, aim more accurately, you have a better buffer between your max range and spotting range, you can force your opponent to switch targets, etc.

As for the Area Denial, the one that fill that roles the most are actually the radar cruisers in my opinion. They are the ship that can close a cap to the enemy team, just by being there. They have tremendous influence on where the DD will duke it out and decides a big part of the match.

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Class roles, if there ever where any, where a long time ago dragged into the woods by wargaming and shot.

 

ImpartialTalkativeAnemonecrab-small.gif

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[SCRUB]
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DDs are more of an aggression denial, can't push confidently if you expect a spread of torps into your sides at any moment.

 

 

Everything else is a detectability question. BBs are area denial for everything they can see, i.e.: ships like cruisers and other battleships mostly who will get shot at. Radar ships are area denial for DDs as they render the detectability advantage moot within their radar range, etc. pp..

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[POI--]
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Any class of surface combattant is an area denial class if properly used that way. DDs can deny areas by flooding it with torpedoes, delaying action and denying key positions by flanking it and sending in torps (one of the few things Shima is good for). Cruisers can radar and even ships without radar and only a lot of firepower can play that role by sitting in an easy to defend position and discouraging others to enter into its gun range. BBs basically are the most obvious area control tools, given they are hard to dislodge, easy to spot (and thus can make enemies turn tail), easy to murder other ships with. I mean, German BBs basically can be 11.3-11.6 km of area denial at high tiers.

 

No ship can do the job solo though, because they just die if the enemy isn't utterly incompetent.

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[BONI]
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Best area-denial is an island-camping CA with radar or spotting support. No one wants to be subjected to a rain of fire before they get a chance to shoot anything. Not BBs, not DDs, not any class. And if it's RN, you can expect a barrage of torps as soon as you do get close enough to detach the camper from their waifu/husbando.

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Got to be a Secondary build BB.  No one wants to push a secondary build Kurf, Gne or Massachusetts if they really have too.  Nearly all of my games won in the Massachusetts involves being close to a cap or flank and holding it down.  The arcs on it's secondaries is great from shooting over low hills that dd's love to hind behind. 

 

The enemy cruiser might be holding the cap but doesn't last long with 27 mm of secondary pen spewing at them. Even more so with the Kurf or Gne with IFHE (to hurts BBs too).  So your ensuring that the enemy dd isnt gonna have any support when they try to cap.  The only catch is if the DD sneaks in as you have no radar.  So hopefully you have a friendly DD going in too.  Your secondaeis and AP BB shells make the difference in any 1 vs 1 DD cap competition. 

 

Many many people don't expect BB's to push to a cap that quickly in the game. Not into it mind you, but island hugging enough to support but withdraw if needs be.

 

Plus your doing a job of a BB...Tanking for the team.

 

Far too many games where cruisers are doing all the tanking because fat lazy Battleships players are popping away on the a line. Their the ones that are normally left at the end on full health then die quickly to concentrated fire.  GOD THAT DOES MY HEAD IN:cap_viking:

 

Shimmy (torp boats in general) are great ones too.

 

 

 

 

 

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[HAWKS]
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The game is about ariel denial. Deny the enemy the capzones, simpel actually.

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6 minutes ago, Fionia_DK said:

The game is about ariel denial. Deny the enemy the capzones, simpel actually.

True.

 

But that requires teamwork and in randoms you have more chance of winning the euro millions. 

 

CB is a totally different as your all singing off the same song sheet and HAVE to work as a team, the reason i still play this game to be honest.

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21 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

Got to be a Secondary build BB.  No one wants to push a secondary build Kurf, Gne or Massachusetts if they really have too.  Nearly all of my games won in the Massachusetts involves being close to a cap or flank and holding it down.  The arcs on it's secondaries is great from shooting over low hills that dd's love to hind behind. 

 

The enemy cruiser might be holding the cap but doesn't last long with 27 mm of secondary pen spewing at them. Even more so with the Kurf or Gne with IFHE (to hurts BBs too).  So your ensuring that the enemy dd isnt gonna have any support when they try to cap.  The only catch is if the DD sneaks in as you have no radar.  So hopefully you have a friendly DD going in too.  Your secondaeis and AP BB shells make the difference in any 1 vs 1 DD cap competition. 

 

Many many people don't expect BB's to push to a cap that quickly in the game. Not into it mind you, but island hugging enough to support but withdraw if needs be.

 

Plus your doing a job of a BB...Tanking for the team.

 

Far too many games where cruisers are doing all the tanking because fat lazy Battleships players are popping away on the a line. Their the ones that are normally left at the end on full health then die quickly to concentrated fire.  GOD THAT DOES MY HEAD IN:cap_viking:

 

Shimmy (torp boats in general) are great ones too.

 

 

 

 

 

Pretty much the best way to play the Germans, I found. They may not be terribly accurate, but they are typically accurate enough and most players don't want to necessarily gamble on the enemy missing them up close. Secondaries add to the no-go zone up close and the armour means getting you out there either involves torping you (hydro) or burning you to the ground, which is slow and only works if you can be set on fire continuously for long periods. Typically not practicable if you have support and aren't heavily outnumbered at a cap.

 

Not that other BBs cannot support close to a cap, given while Amagi and NC don't have the secondaries, they still have guns and you certainly don't want to hang around with an Amagi pointing its ten 41 cm guns at you at 10 km. Just, the Germans typically are the best at it. On the downside, German influence declines rapidly beyond secondary range, while some ships like Yamato or Republique necessitate paying attention to even 26 km away.

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[NWP]
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Yes, DD`s are the area denial weapon no. 1. I have seen whole flanks turn tail when their own DD was sunk and the enemy DD was still active, even when possessing numerical superiority. And in most cases rightly so I have to add. The combination of being perma-spotted and constantly harrassed by torpedoes makes it very hard to continue an attack, especially if your ships lack any meaningful means of detecting and fighting the enemy DD and no CV is present. Any DD player knows that it is much harder to deal significant damage to a target which is moving away from you than it is on a target that is advancing in your direction, mainly due to the torpedo range and the relative speed difference of torpedo and target.

 

Of course there are other ways of denying areas like low concealment +high alpha or high arc + cover + spotter, however a single well commanded DD is the most common one.

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[_MIA_]
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BBs are Area denial. Best one is Missouri :fish_book:

If you get close to a cap, where you are reasonably safe, you stop DDs with your radar and Cruisers with your guns. Many BBs are chickens, so they tend to avoid other BBs. Worst enemy to that MIssouri is Musashi and Yamato.

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41 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

BBs are Area denial. Best one is Missouri :fish_book:

If you get close to a cap, where you are reasonably safe, you stop DDs with your radar and Cruisers with your guns. Many BBs are chickens, so they tend to avoid other BBs. Worst enemy to that MIssouri is Musashi and Yamato

Other bbs dont have radar yet, till cccp bbs :D

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[B0TS]
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Best example of DD's being area deniers that I had encountered was a battle with I DD per side, our left flank took some prodding to advance because "they had no scout', both sides DD's were on the other flank.....

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[WCWVE]
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Some of the most potent DD's in the game are Japanese, if you are in the right position or the enemy thinks that your DD is in a certain position you can crowd there heavy ships into a corner which for Shimakaze and Asashio is a godsend situation 

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30 minutes ago, pzkpfwv1d said:

Some of the most potent DD's in the game are Japanese, if you are in the right position or the enemy thinks that your DD is in a certain position you can crowd there heavy ships into a corner which for Shimakaze and Asashio is a godsend situation 

I have my doubts about IJN torpedo line being "most potent". Frankly, the IJN torpedo line is best described as "still playable", but few would ever recommend these ships for anything but fun in randoms. The torps are nice, but basically the rest of the ship pays the price for it and the Asashio is that principle taken to the extreme. If you want actually potent IJN DDs, you basically look at the alt line, which do pretty much all jobs better except scouting. In pretty much 9/10 cases, a Harugumo or Kitakaze is the better DD to have on your team rather than Shimakaze or Yuugumo and for Kagero... well, it does have a very sizeable concealment advantage over Akizuki (700 m vs 400 m on the Kitakaze vs Yuugumo and 600 m on Harugumo vs Shimakaze), but the ship basically is just straight up inferior to Harekaze. Because having ~3.8k less torp damage and 5 knots less speed (still formidable 17k damage and 62 knots at 10 km) is a pretty decent price for exchanging the rather bad IJN 12.7 cm guns for 10 cm ones. Losing 1.8k hp also isn't much of an issue, given the dpm increase gives much more of an edge in any knife fight than the hp increase would. But it basically highlights the usefulness of versatility over having one somewhat powerful asset (which itself has drawbacks, like long reload and torpedo detection range).

 

And for pure area denial, having spammable torps isn't necessarily worse than having hard hitting ones, because the aim is to discourage, not to delete and the constant threat beats the threat every so often. Not to mention, if someone spots for a Kitakaze or any DD with decent guns (IJN alt line just has the best guns for DDs though), smoking up and spamming shells can in itself present an obstacle that larger ships are unwilling to push into, if they lack proper radar support.

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[HAWKS]
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Actually I can only find one ship (maybe two) thats good on Ariel Denial (AD).
In my book AD means shutting down an area, not just be a threat in the area.

The Shima with 20 km torps can do it, at least make it very unattractive for BBs and CAs going into the area. A DD can work there if he is carefull.
I have experimentet on AD with the Shima. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Also it depends on the maps. At one map I could shut 2 capzones down at one time.

I fired 1 launcher approx. each 45 sec into a capzone or narrow passage. The BBs will take hit and maybe the CAs also. But DDs can survive it, if they are awake.


CU outthere

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