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Tamago

Questioning the damage system

Does it make sense?  

13 members have voted

  1. 1. Does it?

    • yes
      8
    • no
      3
    • i dont get it
      2

10 comments in this topic

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[CQC]
Beta Tester
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First of all: I know how damage at the moment works.

Second of it: I dont get it why it is done that way

Third in all : This is my opinion and nowhere near absolut truth

Fourtly lastly : after writing this it feels more like a rant.

 

to start simpel our dear damage system has a few system : AP, HE,Poi, Fire&Flooding ,Armor, Citadell, Saturation and the omnius moduls wich can tank the world if they feel like it

Now a bit more in detail what they are suposed to do in the game , put in a spoiler, because people actually are suposed to know this already.

Spoiler

AP: As the name sugests , armor pircing. Made to counter armor and has a min distance it needs for exploding, a min armor for fusing and has the chance to ricochet of into nowhere if the armor is not overmatched. Quite frankly the most effektiv methode to deal with other ships on the same size or smaller (as long as you hit the armored/heavily angeled part and prime)

 

HE: Explosve shells, usually used against lightly armored targets and smaller targets. Why? Simple because they cant do overpens, can cause fire and will usually destroy a few things from the ship. so if you shoot from a  BB to a CA/CL or a CA/CL to a DD , you are usually doing consitent damage and wreaking its modules. Also has less RNG than the AP round, because it wont bounce or overpen. Shatters can still happen, but they are far and few between.

 

Torpedos: Generally slow moving, high damaging, easy to avoid. So why should one use torpedos? because they can neither bounce, overpen or shatter, will usually obliterate a DD in 1 hit , maybe 2. Can destroy a CA/CL in around 2-4 hits. And might take between 4-10 torpedos to kill a BB. Also the splash is quite big, so it might still knock out some modules, while causing flooding. The main problem beeing a slow reload rate and beeing quite easy to predict with their slow speed.

 

Fire&Flooding: in simple terms they are Dots that cause continuly damage. While fire does generally lower damage than flooding, fire is caused by alot more stuff and can stack up to 4 times. Flooding can not stack, no matter how many torpedos you hit on the whole broadside. Fires usally are nothing noteworthy for a BB, but can cause serious damage if the BB missmanages his DCP. For a CA/CL or a DD it usually is less of a problem, because of the insanely fast DCP reload.

Flooding on the other hand causes way faster damage, dangerous usally for all clases if not fixed. The automatic flooding removal is quite often to slow to stop your ship from sinking  if you are on under 60% HP, since the damage is in % relativ to your max HP, just like fire, but faster.

 

Armor: Armor is as you woudl excpect here to stop the HE or AP shells from damaging you. Usually armor is usefull, especially if you angle it right . But only if you cant get overmatched, because this usually will change a livesaving AP overpen to a full fledged pen. HE Shells dont care for the angle and usually will cause a pen the moment they hit armor thin enough not to shatter.

 

Citadell: The "weakpoint" of s ahip. someship have them bigger, some have them small, some even have them so badly armored they can get citadells from small caliber fire. Usually they reward a good aim  and a lucky draw on the spread of your ship. But they also can make it look tastey, so you shoot at the citadel , only hit the uper deck for a few overpens. Someships are better for that strategy, some are worse. e.g.: you wouldnt show broadside with a minotaur, while with a Whorecaster you barrely have to care because of your low citadell.

 

Saturation: the more damage you take to a sektion, the less damage each shells does. This can work wonders for a DD or Ca/CL sometimes, but betting on it is always a bad idea. e.g.: It can cause a torpedo to do nearly no damage, but only if the blast does not reach the next section, because than you die

 

Modules: Basically all ships have modules in diverent sizesusually they are : AA, Sekundaries, Main battery, Torpedo tubes, Engine and rudder. All die in different speed and and are usually completly unusable after their max health pool reaches Zero. Only difference beeing Engine and rudder, wich can never be completly gone, for obivous reason. They usually die alot faster to HE-Shells, because HE-Shells explode with a blast and can hit multiple at once.

 

So generelly here is why i dont understand the system starting with AP :

 

AP is suposed to only primewhen the armor is thick enough. This can easily be tested in the trainingsroom. But for some unknown reason... if you shoot at the superstructur ontop of a ship, there is a high chane you cause a pen hit, eventhought it has sometimes the same armor values as a DD. This can cause some really strange things, where if iam quite good angled against a oponent (he would bounce of shatter on main belt, and has a high chance to bounc on the uper deck) he can still shoot at the super structure and cause 10-15k damage, because they are multiple pen hits in the end. Making you question on the way what you where suposed to do. better angling? beeing further away? Praying he doesnt shoot at the superstructur? i personally dont know

 

Torpedos on the other hand are even stranger. Especially because they have such a slow reload rate. It is understandable that the waters would be flooded with endless torpedos if it would be faster, but doing your actually job as a DD against a BB (why yes, one of the DDs jobs is to torpedo BBs), you usally doe quite low damage. Why is it low when i have high amount of torpedos with high amount of damage? Well, easily said, there are alot of things that can spot torpedos from quite a far distance, mostly noteworthy Spotting plane and hydro. So why not just shoot when the spotterplane is down and the hydro gone? well, you might be able to see the plane, but not the hydro if it is active. So lets go with the assumption we manage to throw some torpedos, hydro is off and the spotter plane just got shot down. So will we hit? yes, but usually than only with 1-2 torpedos. So you might ask why is that? simple, because the torpedo got seen ~2km before he hits the bb, the BB might be inteligent enough to notice and turn, makeing you hit only the bow with 1-2 torepdos, causing maybe 15-18k damage. 15-18k might sound like alot, afterall thats more than a DD hitpoints usually and more than half the hit points of a CA/CL, but for a BB what you are supposed to hit, its low, really low. especially because he can repair 30% of it, since they hit the bow and not the torpedo protection.so the effektiv damage done is only like 10k damage. The same a CA can cause without problems on a heavily angled BB withing 30 sec or even on a badly angled BB with one AP salvo, while you in a DD still have to sit and wait for at least 60 more seconds to reload. It definitly is strange that the difference between the Torpedo protetection, the system made to stop you from dieing of a torpedo, is most of the time a worse option to choose, than to take it into the unprotected nose. And iam not talking about realistic here, just that i woudl expect to be rewarded to actually hit a non protected part of a ship. So usually it ends with a death braindead person (just sailing straight for hours) or me doing a kamikaze rush and pray his secondaries dont kill me, or his main gun does not devestates me in a DD. This kind of only is a problem for DDs, because a CA/CL usually has quite good main araments and can tank a bit more, even if it gets overmatched.

 

next on the list, HE-Shells. Or to be more specific.... IFHE shells. i dont get them, not the least. Usually I would expect to be able to tank quite a bit with a BB , aslong as iam not stupid and eat a broadside of a different BB or the hail of a CL/CA when i boradside. But IFHE Shells, make me feel like i cant do anything than take it, from a rapid fireing gun, complettly ignoring what iam doing. with my onlyst option beeing  to either flee, or pray i can kill him fast enough, while i get e.g. 3-10k salvos every 3-10 sec, meaing in the time it takes me to reaload (usually 30sec) i get around 3-5 salvos doing 10-30k damage (depeind if the shatterd on the turret or not) aand thats only talking if 1 person decideds to shoot at me. So i reloaded, i shoot, iam lucky and hit 3 pens and 2 overpens with AP, what did i make ? 12-15k damage, usually. means i do less damage on average against the class iam supposed to kill, than i get in return. While yes i understand that a CL for example has to do damage somehow, he can. even without IFHE. and iam not even talking about fires wich i dont care about. 152mm cant hurt BBs without IFHE? they can, while yes it is only the Superstructure, it is still alot of damage until it is completly saturated. Also there is a mutlitude of fires. Moreover, why even shoot at BBs with that size? killing a CA/CL or a DD is increadibly fast and easy with those fire rates and waaay more rewarding.  And for those who think iam just talking that BBs should survive more : No , i dont, i want them to be able to die fast, if they make a mistake (iam not talking about citadels to insta gib), or get hit by their counter (a torpedo). Its just not the job of a singel cruiser to kill a BB with mainly HE damage. e.g.: last battle i took 95k damage and died. 12k was fire , 30k was 2 yamato salvos and the rest was just He damage of a singel cruiser (in this case a worecaster but that dies not make that much of a difference in the end, it only changes  slightly the time needed). Why didnt i kill the enemy Ca/cl? well, i tried  multiple overpens 3 times, switches to HE , made nearly no damage cause module hits. and there was no 5th salvo.

 

than modules, as i just mentioned. Modules are wierd and way to powerfull in tanking damage. And i mean that seriously. usually when i decide to shoot at something with HE, it is to damage it because i cant use AP right now (either to much of an angle , or to far away). But i dont do damage, not because of shatters , but because of pens into modules. Usually on a cruiser you dont notice it alot because they are quite sparsely set up. but on a DD  you can notice it alot. hailing HE and constantly getting 0 damage numbers, thinking "well at least i killed that AA " or "at least i knocked that turret out for 5 -10 sec wich he doesnt actually need". It really is not really worth it in most cases to shoot HE in that direction. A CA/CL at least has the firerate to not really care, but for a BB it is quite a hugh difference if you hit the top of the ship or the side. If the BB hits with salvo the side of a DD, the DD eats alot of damage. The BB hits abit further up? well you can be lucky to do a few damage numbers but most will propably be eatn by a turret or the AA, just knocking out the Turret usually for a few sec (especially on torpedos anoying, because they stay loaded for some odd reason). This makes it really questionable what i should use sometimes, even AP sometimes get eaten alot especially noticable if you accidently shoot a frontal coming ship to low with a BB, making 8 pen hits for 0 damage and only ~50% chance to knock out the turret for a few sec. It really gives you to question why the turret is not part of the ship...

 

lastly the citadels, i get them. i understand them. Citadels are hear to notify you that you hit the ship really good. and you get rewarded for it. This might bring some questions like "but what about BBs ,they dont have a citadel anymore". well, i can only say to that that alot of CA/CLs start to have nearly no citadell too. My first suspection of the citadel lowering for BBs was to make Torpedos more viable. Iam sure there are a few people that ermember 60-80k salvos regulary happening to BBs from other BBs. That was alot, especially if topedos did nearly to nothing compareable to it. So lowering actually was a neat ideal propably to make torpedos more viable. Sadly torpedos stayed as weak as before. they really should do more damage when they hit non Torpedo protection parts. but oh well, i dont know anymore what to do with citadels on Ca/Cls. Should i aim for them? should i not? Usually with a Ca/CL i try to citadell other CA/CL , but i tend to die faster for this from the he spam i get back.

 

tl;dr  <--for the people that search it

so all in all together, i personally have no idea anymore what to do with what weapon and how to tank a specific weapon. The onlyst one iam sure about is torpedos, just turn into them, your nose can eat tons of them and survive. IFHE will kill me no matter the angel and distance (dont know what to do against that) and AP seems to act alot suspisios these days (like getting frontally a full 12 shell salvo of a montana from 12km distance and eating nearly 20k damage in a BB).

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[CQC]
Beta Tester
44 posts
3,906 battles
1 minute ago, principat121 said:

Where is the tl;dr version?

 

And did you see the "How does it work" series from Wargaming on YT?

yes i did, but they told me nothing new. I already knew that years ago.

 

also, i will ad the text "tl;dr" letters where it is, gimme a sec

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Beta Tester
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Don't really have that many issues with the damage model nowadays, apart from the "oh you turned away let me put a citadel through your insanely angled side for some reason"-[edited] but that has been the case for years now. 

 

IFHE as a skill is not bothering me that much. Most high tier decks are still virtually immune to IFHE and your superstructure gets depleted fairly quickly so the real impact is not that huge. What I do have a problem with is that IFHE does not really have that much of a penalty to it in terms of fire damage. With DE and flags you loose 1% firechance and get a really big raw damage increase. 

  • Cool 1

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Modder
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Are you sure, that you understand how IFHE works?

 

 

When you wrote this:

6 minutes ago, ollonborre said:

Most high tier decks are still virtually immune to IFHE and your superstructure gets depleted fairly quickly so the real impact is not that huge.

Then, how can this be?

6 minutes ago, ollonborre said:

get a really big raw damage increase

 

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[CQC]
Beta Tester
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1 minute ago, ollonborre said:

Don't really have that many issues with the damage model nowadays, apart from the "oh you turned away let me put a citadel through your insanely angled side for some reason"-[edited] but that has been the case for years now. 

 

IFHE as a skill is not bothering me that much. Most high tier decks are still virtually immune to IFHE and your superstructure gets depleted fairly quickly so the real impact is not that huge. What I do have a problem with is that IFHE does not really have that much of a penalty to it in terms of fire damage. With DE and flags you loose 1% firechance and get a really big raw damage increase. 

i odly thought that too about IFHE. It shouldnt really matter for most ships. But for some odd reason, even if iam sailing a yamato, i take alot of HE damage fromt he usually 200+mm cruisers. the smaller ones like hagurumo , worecaster ,etc, yes, they do little, but the others still alot.

And the saturation... it sounds like a good point, but sadly it is usless the moment you activate a repair team. cause that repairs the superstructure again , meaning you take again full damage through it.

The worst you can actually do in a CA/CL or BB when getting hailed by HE is activating the repair team.. you actually can die faster fromt that because you take more damage..

 

but yeah, i also think the combo with firechance makes it a "no reason not to pick" option.. now if the firechance reduction was a flat 50% ... that would cause screams.

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Beta Tester
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3 minutes ago, principat121 said:

 

Then, how can this be?

 

I should have clarified, the big damage increase comes mainly from being able to penetrate 32 mm of armor, and since most ships front decks, bow and stern are 32 mm of armor you are no longer forced to just aim at the superstructure. Or ships like the Republique and Conqueror who are pretty much clad in 32 mm of armor.

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[NWP]
Players
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Ye, i agree to some extend.

IFHE is just... bad. That skill needs to go and every ship with low caliber guns needs to have seperate penetration rules to balance them. Thats especially bad for those fast firing ships like Worcester and Harugumo.

 

Modules eating damage is just crap also. The biggest problem i actually have when shooting BB AP against anything. 3 Pens and only 1 pen worth of damage? Actually very common for me :cap_fainting:And i even feel im not hitting the superstructure anyway. And usually happens more often when the target has full HP (no modules hit).

 

Damage saturation... something needs to change imo. I had couple of times torps which dealt 0 damage (mostly against BBs...). This is just plain bad. Also since overpens always deal damage on saturated areas, IMO it would be fair when penetrations would still deal 1/10 damage like overpens would?

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[UNICS]
Players
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The unreliability of AP and the unintuitive nature of it all is my biggest complaint. Launch a AP salvo at 20km from a GK and luckily hit and score a citadel is fun I guess, but it doesn't outweigh the frustration of launching a full AP salvo at 7 km on a broadside potato and only score overpens. I'd trade the RNG long range hits to reliably punish bad plays at close range. Every step up in class should be able to severely punish the smaller class at close range. BBs -> CAs -> CLs -> DDs -> BBs. I don't care how they do it.

  • Cool 4

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