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Tgb03

Submarines Balance Suggestions

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I know that what we saw is just nothing compared to how subs will really work and act in the Halloween event BUT I need to talk and say something important.

1. Can subs work in randoms? We all know that is the goal. Halloween is just a way to test them and I agree with that.

Well I doubt they will work like in halloween mode but maybe maybe we can try and say something about how they should balance them: The first problem that comes up if the only class that will deal with them are DDs well then we have a problem. What will CVs/BBs/Cruisers do? What happens if your DDs just die in the first 2minutes of the battle? You can't let an entire tech tree be invincible for an entire match. Basically that means that all ships should have a way too deal with submarines. Now the next problem comes in: how will you spot Subs? well you can't unless he is surfaced or if you have hydro. That makes them kinda invincible (I know that you think that the oxygen meter will counter that but remember that you have a 5km detection range. You can really abuse this very easily.). How could WG fix it? Add a new consumable (I don't care about the name) but it should work like this: When you pop it you will increase the spotting distance of an underwater submarine. For example: your submarine is on periscope depth and you have a 3km detection range, a Pensecola for example comes in and uses the consumable which increases the underwater submarines spotting range with 3km which means that now the submarine will be detected at 6km. This consumable should be on ALL ships without hydro or if the ships with hydro have waaaay less of this consumable. A Pensecola has for example 6 uses of this underwater search consumable while a Grosser Kurfurst has only 1 use. But this raises another question : how will subs counter that? stealth, if the enemy shis doesn't know you are there he won't use the consumable. This consumable should make agressive players rewarded since when they get into a submarine infested location they can use the consumable and absolutely murder the submarines while passive players have no idea when to use it and ussually end up dieing due to 1 pesky submarine. Of course Destroyers should have a longer duration on that consumable while a battleship should have a short duration on it. On the same note Destroyers should be able to put more depth charges in the water while battleships shouldn't be able to launch so many Depth Charges. This should give destroyers an edge against submarines while Battleships and Heavy cruisers have a hard time against Battleships.

PS: Carriers should not have that consumable cause well Carriers are not made for this. And another thing: the consumable should spot the enemy submarines in a 3D manner which means that if a submarine is at 100m depth then you need to be like 90m closer to the submarine (I know it isn't much but it matters)

2.How do we reward submarines? well you will reward high skilled submarine. Unfortunately this means that submarines will be able to destroy passive players or very unaware players. This will not be an RTS Carrier problem because submarines will not be able to destroy 4 ships at the same time or too spot the entire enemy team.

3.BTW Submarine spotting enemy team? Well I don't think Submarines should be able to spot ANYTHING unless at periscope depth which means that you can't just wreck EVERYTHING without getting any damage. But on periscope depth and on the surface should spot enemy ships just as normal.

These are my thoughts. If you have any more concerns or stuff that seems OP or very weird please tell me so maybe I can come up/ change my suggestions so we can help WG implement them as soon as possible CAUSE SUBMARINEZZZ I WANT THEM.

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18 minutes ago, Cyclops_ said:

A big fat NO from me !!!!

Please share your ideas on what is wrong. I only see this as the only option to make gameplay normal. Filter passive players and reward aggressive ones and in the same time reward submarine players. If you have any other ideas please share them.

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Every video and every screenshot screams "HALLOWEEN EVENT" and yet everyone thinks that they come "tomorrow" as regular release...

 

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3 minutes ago, Mandalorianer said:

Every video and every screenshot screams "HALLOWEEN EVENT" and yet everyone thinks that they come "tomorrow"...

 

I made this post in hope that if the Halloween test doesn't go right, since so many things can maybe WarGaming could address some of the concerns and issues we will have and keep this as an open idea for the future not just a trashed idea that failed.

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8 minutes ago, Tgb03 said:

I made this post in hope that if the Halloween test doesn't go right, since so many things can maybe WarGaming could address some of the concerns and issues we will have and keep this as an open idea for the future not just a trashed idea that failed.

 

On my clock Halloween is on october 31st... Where I'am right now it is september 19th...

And even IF... @MrConway already told us that even the 10 months upfront test driver and CCs complained about T-61 wasn't enough to make "last minute changes".

 

So hold your p*ss!

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Boarfff. Submarines should not be detectable after they have submerged deep enough. 

Periscopes should be spotted, and if they surface they should be sort of like DDs. 

But when not deep enough, the hydro should work - and that has enough range IMO.

 

Just more ships will need to get hydro. and they can balance that:

- some subs diving faster;

- subs not being able to dive (or sink...) when they have holes in them;

- smaller subs having more concealment so not having to dive that deep;

- some ships having more hydro and hydro-range than others.

 

Diving is just like a DD having smoke. Only this time they can disappear... for a while.

Like a DD can evade when he has been radared of hydroed. Nothing much new.

I'd still attack a sub, like I do a DD, if I get surprised in my fat BB. Eat a few torps, but kill it, no problem.

 

BBs need not have anything except some have hydro. They are faster than subs, so should just keep moving anyway.

Done with the camping. If they detect (or suspect) a sub, get the  F outta there,

or else prepare to sacrifice a bit of that health pool (with large torpedo bulges).

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Tgb03"Well I don't think Submarines should be able to spot ANYTHING unless at periscope depth which means that you can't just wreck EVERYTHING without getting any damage."

 

Submarines used passive listening to locate ships including their speed and direction (and from this their course) while submerged. In WoWS subs should be able to get a loose position of all ships within a certain distance (which should really depend on the speed and size of the ship) but not a precise location. This could even be a modification of the current Radio Location Finding with distance to the target added.

 

Later in WWII US subs had radar on their periscopes. Higher tier subs (at least the US branch) should have radar with limited range.

 

I would expect that subs will not be able to communicate ship positions when submerged, but they should also not be seen by RLF.

 

Currently Hydro is way more accurate than it really was. It should not be possible to use Hydro to find a sub and then get a 100% chance of a kill. Many submerged subs were hunted for hours or days without being found.

 

Depth charges had low kill probabilities. Many subs reported being depth charged many times without significant (mission killing) damage. They often needed time in port for repairs, but were still able to continue the mission at the time. On the other hand there were occasions where the first set of depth charges killed a sub (e.g. the Harder which was killed with one set of depth charges after diverting attention from the less experienced Hake).

 

Subs should have limited torps. The US subs I have read about had only a single reload (6 torps in the bow tubes and 6 more to reload, 4 tubes and 4 reloads in the stern). Subs should also have the ability to launch single torps instead of a spread. This alone will make subs more cautious because the can easily run out of torps.

 

I would like to see subs starting in forward positions. Often subs were sent ahead to take up positions along the expected routes of the enemy since they could not effectively chase down fast war ships. I could even see subs starting between the enemy's subs and their surface ships. I would like to see sub players given an option of selecting their starting position in the loading screen. Perhaps there would be a max of 3 subs on a side and 5 or 6 starting positions for the subs with the subs choosing their starting positions with first come, first served so only one sub could start in each area. Come late to the game and you get a random starting location. 

 

Tgb03The first problem that comes up if the only class that will deal with them are DDs well then we have a problem.

 

I don't see this as a problem since it would lead to BB and CA players being more protective of their DDs. Lose your DDs (and your subs, enemy subs were more feared than DDs according to quotes I have seen) and you have to go around any subs detected. Currently it seems that BB and CA players often treat DDs as disposable spotters and cap takers.

 

If the subs have limited time submerged they are also targets for torps, bombs and guns when on the surface. Being submerged is similar to being in smoke since you can use it to hide for a while but not the whole game. I would make it longer than smoke since one a sub has to surface it will be too slow to run from just about any surface ship.

 

I have seen some claims that subs did not have guns. I know that some (most?) subs could mount guns when surfaced. I believe 3 inch guns were common on US subs. Not much but could be of use against s weakened DD hunting you.

 

A good book to read for a feel of US sub operations is Edward Beach's Submarine!. The author was the XO of the USS Trigger (SS 237) during WWII.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Alpheus100 said:

This could even be a modification of the current Radio Location Finding with distance to the target added.

Why distance... I'm sure real subs never knew exactly. Between 1-5 miles? But 'radio location' should work. 

 

13 minutes ago, Alpheus100 said:

Higher tier subs (at least the US branch) should have radar with limited range.

Yes, but only when they are at surface or periscope depth. And punishment should be higher detection.

 

14 minutes ago, Alpheus100 said:

It should not be possible to use Hydro to find a sub and then get a 100% chance of a kill.

Correct. But radar also goes through mountains in WOWS. Arcade confirmed...

 

15 minutes ago, Alpheus100 said:

Depth charges had low kill probabilities.

Offer sheep and everything to RNGesus. 

 

16 minutes ago, Alpheus100 said:

Subs should have limited torps. The US subs I have read about had only a single reload (6 torps in the bow tubes and 6 more to reload, 4 tubes and 4 reloads in the stern). Subs should also have the ability to launch single torps instead of a spread. This alone will make subs more cautious because the can easily run out of torps.

When carriers cannot be deplaned? And DDs have infinite? I'd say no. 

 

16 minutes ago, Alpheus100 said:

I would like to see subs starting in forward positions.

Me too. But even better, put some random positions for subs and have them spawn there. Even at the edge of map, on enemy side... or (when teams are north/south) subs spawn east/west... 

 

19 minutes ago, Alpheus100 said:

Currently it seems that BB and CA players often treat DDs as disposable spotters and cap takers.

Agreed. BBs doing thaty deserve to die. Fast. By subs. 

 

19 minutes ago, Alpheus100 said:

I have seen some claims that subs did not have guns. I know that some (most?) subs could mount guns when surfaced.

Most did have 1 gun. Some even had AA (very little, but well...).

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18 hours ago, Mandalorianer said:

Every video and every screenshot screams "HALLOWEEN EVENT" and yet everyone thinks that they come "tomorrow" as regular release...

 

Well firstly there was the interview with the publishing director (?) That basically just said they are coming 2019.

 

Secondly, listening to the stream it said they had tried lots of ideas for subs and this is the one they like the most.

The event is to gather feedback and decide if they want to push this model forward.

 

Now what this tells me is that they want to put subs in. They think they can. The feedback will mean they either go ahead as is, or they tweak it and have a slightly different model. One way or another they are planning to put subs in.

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5 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

Well firstly there was the interview with the publishing director (?) That basically just said they are coming 2019.

 

Secondly, listening to the stream it said they had tried lots of ideas for subs and this is the one they like the most.

The event is to gather feedback and decide if they want to push this model forward.

 

Now what this tells me is that they want to put subs in. They think they can. The feedback will mean they either go ahead as is, or they tweak it and have a slightly different model. One way or another they are planning to put subs in.

 

So 2019 #YearOfTheSubmarines?

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10 minutes ago, aboomination said:
18 hours ago, Tyrendian89 said:

wall of text much? do you seriously expect people to read that?

I didn't :P

Nor me :P

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Are subs being able to cap? Can they do it while submerged?

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38 minutes ago, Lieut_Gruber said:

Are subs being able to cap? Can they do it while submerged?

They could make that easily balanced: if not detectable, cannot cap.

What use is a piece of map at the bottom of the ocean? 

 

My guess is they'll make it so that it has to be at periscope depth or at the surface.

It would be fun if they made capping go SLOWER when it is at periscope depth, and NORMAL speed when at surface.

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23 hours ago, Tgb03 said:

I know that what we saw is just nothing compared to how subs will really work and act in the Halloween event BUT I need to talk and say something important.

 

1. Can subs work in randoms? We all know that is the goal. Halloween is just a way to test them and I agree with that.

Well I doubt they will work like in halloween mode but maybe maybe we can try and say something about how they should balance them: The first problem that comes up if the only class that will deal with them are DDs well then we have a problem.

What will CVs/BBs/Cruisers do? What happens if your DDs just die in the first 2minutes of the battle? You can't let an entire tech tree be invincible for an entire match.

 

Basically that means that all ships should have a way too deal with submarines. Now the next problem comes in: how will you spot Subs? well you can't unless he is surfaced or if you have hydro. That makes them kinda invincible (I know that you think that the oxygen meter will counter that but remember that you have a 5km detection range. You can really abuse this very easily.).

 

How could WG fix it? Add a new consumable (I don't care about the name) but it should work like this: When you pop it you will increase the spotting distance of an underwater submarine. For example: your submarine is on periscope depth and you have a 3km detection range, a Pensecola for example comes in and uses the consumable which increases the underwater submarines spotting range with 3km which means that now the submarine will be detected at 6km.

This consumable should be on ALL ships without hydro or if the ships with hydro have waaaay less of this consumable. A Pensecola has for example 6 uses of this underwater search consumable while a Grosser Kurfurst has only 1 use. But this raises another question : how will subs counter that?

 

stealth, if the enemy shis doesn't know you are there he won't use the consumable. This consumable should make agressive players rewarded since when they get into a submarine infested location they can use the consumable and absolutely murder the submarines while passive players have no idea when to use it and ussually end up dieing due to 1 pesky submarine.

Of course Destroyers should have a longer duration on that consumable while a battleship should have a short duration on it. On the same note Destroyers should be able to put more depth charges in the water while battleships shouldn't be able to launch so many Depth Charges. This should give destroyers an edge against submarines while Battleships and Heavy cruisers have a hard time against Battleships.

 

PS: Carriers should not have that consumable cause well Carriers are not made for this. And another thing: the consumable should spot the enemy submarines in a 3D manner which means that if a submarine is at 100m depth then you need to be like 90m closer to the submarine (I know it isn't much but it matters)

 

 

2.How do we reward submarines? well you will reward high skilled submarine. Unfortunately this means that submarines will be able to destroy passive players or very unaware players.

This will not be an RTS Carrier problem because submarines will not be able to destroy 4 ships at the same time or too spot the entire enemy team.

 

 

3.BTW Submarine spotting enemy team? Well I don't think Submarines should be able to spot ANYTHING unless at periscope depth which means that you can't just wreck EVERYTHING without getting any damage. But on periscope depth and on the surface should spot enemy ships just as normal.

These are my thoughts. If you have any more concerns or stuff that seems OP or very weird please tell me so maybe I can come up/ change my suggestions so we can help WG implement them as soon as possible CAUSE SUBMARINEZZZ I WANT THEM.

dear OP.......... 10 secs of "work"...............................

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7 hours ago, Alpheus100 said:
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Tgb03"Well I don't think Submarines should be able to spot ANYTHING unless at periscope depth which means that you can't just wreck EVERYTHING without getting any damage."

 

Submarines used passive listening to locate ships including their speed and direction (and from this their course) while submerged. In WoWS subs should be able to get a loose position of all ships within a certain distance (which should really depend on the speed and size of the ship) but not a precise location. This could even be a modification of the current Radio Location Finding with distance to the target added.

 

Later in WWII US subs had radar on their periscopes. Higher tier subs (at least the US branch) should have radar with limited range.

 

I would expect that subs will not be able to communicate ship positions when submerged, but they should also not be seen by RLF.

 

Currently Hydro is way more accurate than it really was. It should not be possible to use Hydro to find a sub and then get a 100% chance of a kill. Many submerged subs were hunted for hours or days without being found.

 

Depth charges had low kill probabilities. Many subs reported being depth charged many times without significant (mission killing) damage. They often needed time in port for repairs, but were still able to continue the mission at the time. On the other hand there were occasions where the first set of depth charges killed a sub (e.g. the Harder which was killed with one set of depth charges after diverting attention from the less experienced Hake).

 

Subs should have limited torps. The US subs I have read about had only a single reload (6 torps in the bow tubes and 6 more to reload, 4 tubes and 4 reloads in the stern). Subs should also have the ability to launch single torps instead of a spread. This alone will make subs more cautious because the can easily run out of torps.

 

I would like to see subs starting in forward positions. Often subs were sent ahead to take up positions along the expected routes of the enemy since they could not effectively chase down fast war ships. I could even see subs starting between the enemy's subs and their surface ships. I would like to see sub players given an option of selecting their starting position in the loading screen. Perhaps there would be a max of 3 subs on a side and 5 or 6 starting positions for the subs with the subs choosing their starting positions with first come, first served so only one sub could start in each area. Come late to the game and you get a random starting location. 

 

Tgb03The first problem that comes up if the only class that will deal with them are DDs well then we have a problem.

 

I don't see this as a problem since it would lead to BB and CA players being more protective of their DDs. Lose your DDs (and your subs, enemy subs were more feared than DDs according to quotes I have seen) and you have to go around any subs detected. Currently it seems that BB and CA players often treat DDs as disposable spotters and cap takers.

 

If the subs have limited time submerged they are also targets for torps, bombs and guns when on the surface. Being submerged is similar to being in smoke since you can use it to hide for a while but not the whole game. I would make it longer than smoke since one a sub has to surface it will be too slow to run from just about any surface ship.

 

I have seen some claims that subs did not have guns. I know that some (most?) subs could mount guns when surfaced. I believe 3 inch guns were common on US subs. Not much but could be of use against s weakened DD hunting you.

And what was in that drink you've just had exactly?

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