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AngreyNoob

WoWs Loot crates and EU gambling?

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With the event of EA being lambasted on their loot crate "gambling" policy does any of this affect the future for Wargaming's loot crate system?

 

Crates are nothing more than a roll of a dice and at 25Kr (in Sweden) a roll its far from cheap its potentially an incredibly addictive little trap.

 

At Christmas, the crates were actually worthwhile.  Even with a strong gamble. 

But take these 3-year ones.  Utter garbage and for the same price. 

 

Don't get me wrong i enjoy opening "free ones" and bought a load at Xmas but i don't understand how these gambles don't fall into the same category as the other gambling problems faced by other game developers.

 

 

 

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[ZERO]
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I think this is the reason, why we have now the arsenal and a fixed amount of "tokens" in the crates.

So you know how many crates (tokens) you have to buy to get XY-thing from the arsenal.

Means there is no luck included that you will receive what you wanted.

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8 minutes ago, AngreyNoob said:

With the event of EA being lambasted on their loot crate "gambling" policy does any of this affect the future for Wargaming's loot crate system?

 

Crates are nothing more than a roll of a dice and at 25Kr (in Sweden) a roll its far from cheap its potentially an incredibly addictive little trap.

 

At Christmas, the crates were actually worthwhile.  Even with a strong gamble. 

But take these 3-year ones.  Utter garbage and for the same price. 

 

Don't get me wrong i enjoy opening "free ones" and bought a load at Xmas but i don't understand how these gambles don't fall into the same category as the other gambling problems faced by other game developers.

 

 

 

When the guaranteed content of the crate is worth the price you pay, it does not fall under the gambling law.

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[NED]
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I've been following the lootbox discussion for some time now. AFAIK it mainly started with Star Wars BFII (probably earlier but BFII ignited it a lot). It is part of the monetizition of games. The discussion/ debate is about whether or not it's gambling. Paying to have a tiny chance to win a good upgrade/ item. There seem to be an "invisible" distinction between F2P or P2P games, which BF II is the latter. In F2P there seem to be some more "tolerance" in the lootboxes.

With Wows I think they are treading on the "egde." Yes it's clearly postulated beforehand what's in the boxes. (flags, collector items etc). What I find interesting with, f.e., the purchasable Yamamoto boxes is the "if you're lucky there are 24 special signals." IMO that's pure gambling. I wouldn't mind them if the prizes are fixed. "you win 12 signals" What type they are could be argued as gambling if it's random, granted. But I don't see that as much "heavy" as the possible 24 flags.

The ingame boxes haven't got anything to do with RL money. Everybody can earn them with ingame currency which everybody can earn by playing (xp, coal etc). So a gambling factor in that is, debatable, not so much an issue there for me. In other words: by harvesting the ingame currency everybody has that 0,0000001% chance to win a rare premium ship.

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The Dutch gambling authority said that lootboxes can be in violation of the law. However, only in case they contain a prize that can be traded for money outside the game itself. Which isn't the case for WoWs. The press release, in Dutch: https://www.kansspelautoriteit.nl/nieuws/alle-nieuwsberichten/2018/april/artikel-0/

 

So nah, only the Belgian authority took a rather strong stance but I have not heard of any consequences or follow up to that.

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As longs as there are enough stupid people with no self-restraint on money there will always be gambling in one form or another.

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24 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

When the guaranteed content of the crate is worth the price you pay, it does not fall under the gambling law.

True, and I agree in principal, but who sets the value on the content in the first place, i.e. regulated in any way?

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[WOTN]
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The whole 'always at least the price you pay' is a bit of a weak arguement. Ultimately it is a game of chance that promises potential but does not guarentee rewards on the roll of a dice. I still like to do it though, so it's a bit of a difficult for me to be enthuiastic to have it removed. I like to splurge at new year's after all.

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[BAD-B]
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There's nothing in the crates in WoWs that you cannot buy otherwise directly (or at least anything that matters significantly) or via the Arsenal (maybe the special flags, not really sure).

 

So does not apply here.

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[AAO]
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Laws like EU is now setting is good so greedy so called trile A companies cant get greedy and milk every last penny off from players, just like EA tryed with battlefront 2 and what i have read every other sports game is nowdays, buy loot boxes to get new players to your team etc. 

 

 

In F2P games tolerance can be different since like it doesnt have upfront cost, also in WoWs model you get your moneys worth and sometimes score big with premium ship. It doesnt advertice them to "BUY NOW and you might get Belfast / kutuzov" as example, halloween and christmas boxes are nice way to earn gold if you wanna gamble but overall i dont view them as bad thing in WoWs. 

 

 

There are ppl who cant help them selves and there are stupid parents who dont know what it causes to add credit card info to your childs game can do, they go into same category for parents who buy GTA V to theyr 10yo and call out companies for making such violent games and not warning them with flashing lights and sirens. 

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38 minutes ago, walter3kurtz said:

The Dutch gambling authority said that lootboxes can be in violation of the law. However, only in case they contain a prize that can be traded for money outside the game itself. Which isn't the case for WoWs. The press release, in Dutch: https://www.kansspelautoriteit.nl/nieuws/alle-nieuwsberichten/2018/april/artikel-0/

 

So nah, only the Belgian authority took a rather strong stance but I have not heard of any consequences or follow up to that.

 It's a little more than Belgium alone.

15 European gambling regulators unite to tackle loot box threat (with US)

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There's been mention here of 'you get your money's worth' in the boxes, but who sets the value here? Who decides whether 'we get our moneys worth'? Do we as players decide, whether we're happy with what we got, i.e. satisfies our expectations? Because if so, this is an extremely subjective area. Obviously WG decide, but who regulates them and how do they justify the cost of these items if they claim the contents of loot boxes are of equal or higher value to the money paid? How do we know we're not being charged too much? Are they relying on our trust of them operating fairly?

 

My personal feeling is the price of a premium account is perfect, very very reasonable, the cost of premium ships perhaps too high (but still reasonably understandable), but the cost of consumables, and especially items like signals and camo's far too high. WG set a high tag on the latter value by adding them as rewards for missions, but in super low quantities, and we know being rewarded two flags here and there is pointless when they're lost on bad games in minutes and therefore offer highly variable outcomes.

 

Just a thought and a difficult one at that, because a lot needs to be considered. Ultimately, companies who self-regulate are risky, and as players subbing to unregulated companies in this way we put ourselves at high risk of being exploited.

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[WTFNO]
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I don't hate lootboxes. I'm just bitter that when (some) games had reasonable paid DLC, people overreacted and treated them the same way as the infamous horse armor. So now instead of paying for what we want, we pay for a lottery ticket to maybe get what we want, eventually.

 

That's what makes "but players want it" argument shaky for me in the discussion about submarines.

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1 hour ago, Shaka_D said:

There's been mention here of 'you get your money's worth' in the boxes, but who sets the value here? Who decides whether 'we get our moneys worth'?

The boxes that are banned* here in Belgium are boxes like that, where you "get your money's worth guaranteed, but with a chance to get rare items". So that will include Halloween/Xmas boxes for WoWS. 

 

(*only if the company doesn't want to adhere to the rules regarding gambling that is, which means: checking age, don't promote it to minors and have a gambling license. If a company adheres to those (simple & fair) rules, there isn't an issue for lootboxes. Big companies like EA, 2K,... are convinced they are above the law, so they are now in the process of being prosecuted).

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4 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

When the guaranteed content of the crate is worth the price you pay, it does not fall under the gambling law.

Jeez, i dunno if that can possibly be true? If i get the average crate like below, id just call that a losing roll. 

 

Say u get 5 flags a collection item and a few camos  How on earth is that worth 25kr £2, 3 euros etc.

 

The reason we all buy them is that you might get that 2% or 1% chance of whatever it is, to get a new ship or whatever. 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, AngreyNoob said:

Jeez, i dunno if that can possibly be true? If i get the average crate like below, id just call that a losing roll. 

 

Say u get 5 flags a collection item and a few camos  How on earth is that worth 25kr £2, 3 euros etc.

 

The reason we all buy them is that you might get that 2% or 1% chance of whatever it is, to get a new ship or whatever. 

 

 

 

By making the stuff expensive....

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1 hour ago, AngreyNoob said:

Jeez, i dunno if that can possibly be true? If i get the average crate like below, id just call that a losing roll. 

 

Say u get 5 flags a collection item and a few camos  How on earth is that worth 25kr £2, 3 euros etc.

 

The reason we all buy them is that you might get that 2% or 1% chance of whatever it is, to get a new ship or whatever. 

 

 

 

You dont get ships from those bought crates, they are for the collectables andas bonus small ammount of flags. 

 

Far as i know christmas containers are onlyone that had chance to roll premium ship. Halloween boxes ppl use halloween perma camos and get gold from dublicates. 

Flags are set price in prem store or you can use coal nowdays. 

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Hmm this "you get your money's worth' in the boxes" made me think....

 

When the game is free, and the various XP/Credits etc bonuses you can get from flags and camo's in the boxes, can also just be earned completely free by playing, although have to play a bit more than someone using the bonuses.

Then how can such boxes be valued, when the exact same amount of XP/credits etc can be gained for free?

 

Or am I having a brainfart here?

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12 minutes ago, Average_Oldie said:

Hmm this "you get your money's worth' in the boxes" made me think....

 

When the game is free, and the various XP/Credits etc bonuses you can get from flags and camo's in the boxes, can also just be earned completely free by playing, although have to play a bit more than someone using the bonuses.

Then how can such boxes be valued, when the exact same amount of XP/credits etc can be gained for free?

 

Or am I having a brainfart here?

Take a look at the online shop...

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On 19-9-2018 at 11:48 AM, Milckenbom said:


"Tackling" lol

 

Tthis list includes NL and in my link you can read what this means - no problem for WG. If that's "tackling" then there's zero issues.

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10 minutes ago, walter3kurtz said:


"Tackling" lol

 

Tthis list includes NL and in my link you can read what this means - no problem for WG. If that's "tackling" then there's zero issues.

Because the Dutch government doesn't change its mind ever? What they say they do? :Smile_teethhappy:

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20 hours ago, Average_Oldie said:

Hmm this "you get your money's worth' in the boxes" made me think....

 

When the game is free, and the various XP/Credits etc bonuses you can get from flags and camo's in the boxes, can also just be earned completely free by playing, although have to play a bit more than someone using the bonuses.

Then how can such boxes be valued, when the exact same amount of XP/credits etc can be gained for free?

 

Or am I having a brainfart here?

You can buy  the camo's and flags for cash in the premium shop, so a monetary value can be assigned to them

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