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Great write up.

 

The way I'd tell it is that timing and knowing the plane's animations is far more useful than spamming APM.

 

That Farrazelleth guy doesn't seem to do all that much clicking in his tutorial videos.

 

Just wished CVs in their current form wasn't being replaced by WoWP Lite :cap_old:

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APM is undeniably a part of carrier play and is directly linked to your squadron management. Potato who auto attacks and forgets about his fighters mid-game won't get higher apm than someone who knows what he's doing, simple as that.

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31 minutes ago, orzel286 said:

APM is undeniably a part of carrier play and is directly linked to your squadron management. Potato who auto attacks and forgets about his fighters mid-game won't get higher apm than someone who knows what he's doing, simple as that.

But you cant say that CVs are APM intensive and thats why lesser carrier players cant keep up.. I guess if you take fast firing cruiser or DD and kiting away while firing then your APM will be higher than El2aZeR has in his carrier examples.

 

Overall awareness is the most likely reason, people can't focus on several squadrons around the map at the same time.

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Unless you try to micro-manage 6 to 8 squads in different corners of the map (which you should not try to do anyway) or trying to conduct a triple cross-drop on a heavily evading target the current CV play is less about APM but about knowledge and timing.

 

Knowledge what to hit, where to hit and when to hit and timing of strafes and timing of strikes. While the former is more related to theoretical knowledge about AA bubbles range and power, AA skill duration, durability of your own planes, torpedo and deck protection of your target etc the later usually is the problem for the majority of players as timing requires immense skill (and in case of strafing attacks a lot of theoretical knowledge and practise too).

 

And while even I can quite reliably hit targets with strikes using both attack types I for one never bothered to invest into the art of strafing (general timing, locking of enemy fighters and strafing out of a lock, counter-strafing etc). Instead I found that the skill level required to perfom well against more than mediocre opponents made me quit CVs, simply because skill gaps are immense and as a CV you can be shut down by a skilled adversary too easily.

 

So no, CV play is not about constant APM but about careful planning and the actions and timing in the 5 to 15 seconds where it matters (execution phase).

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as said above it is more about plane positioning, out thinking the enemy CV rather than pure APM. if you out position the enemy cvs planes you shouldnt have to do that much APM at all. the most actions taken up in cv gameplay (mostly ranked/competitive against good cv players) is jostling with fighters trying to gain/deny spotting. dropping ships requires very little APM if you come in from the right angle and have already dealt with enemy fighters. 

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4 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

This is like sitting someone who has never touched a piano in their lives in front of one and requiring him to eventually play Beethovens Moonlight Sonata perfectly with no instruction whatsoever.

This and "Fur Elise" the only Piano song that i can play on the Piano  :cap_tea: True story.

 

Very few CV players use even the most basic skill....Strafe.  Never mind 2-3-4 or 5 fingers to use, they simply cant even get the most basic CV mechanic right or at all. This one "skill" gives CV players a MASSIVE advantage over the other.  

 

So....Their either:

 

1) Cant be bothered to use it

2) Don't know how to use it 

3) Don't use it because they are no good at it

 

41 minutes ago, Ubertron_X said:

And while even I can quite reliably hit targets with strikes using both attack types I for one never bothered to invest into the art of strafing (general timing, locking of enemy fighters and strafing out of a lock, counter-strafing etc). Instead I found that the skill level required to perfom well against more than mediocre opponents made me quit CVs, simply because skill gaps are immense and as a CV you can be shut down by a skilled adversary too easily.

 

So you found that next level up too hard for a casual game such as this? Is that what you are saying? Just wondering.

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2 hours ago, orzel286 said:

APM is undeniably a part of carrier play and is directly linked to your squadron management. Potato who auto attacks and forgets about his fighters mid-game won't get higher apm than someone who knows what he's doing, simple as that.

 

And yet to take apm as a measurement of CV player skill is nothing short of absolutely :etc_swear:. Both the minimum required apm and the apm ceiling are extremely low, as is befitting of a more casual game.

 

Sure, there will be potatoes that can't even manage the minimum apm required, but then again we also have backline camping BBs, DDs who suicide rush or broadsiding cruisers. To take any of these as a balancing measurement is hilarious at best and it should be no different with CVs.

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2 hours ago, orzel286 said:

APM is undeniably a part of carrier play and is directly linked to your squadron management. Potato who auto attacks and forgets about his fighters mid-game won't get higher apm than someone who knows what he's doing, simple as that.

That's not an apm issue though, that's a simple l2p problem.

 

Someone microing a manual strike with 10 clicks isn't going to be magically doing more damage than someone doing a manual strike with 5 clicks. As long as both of them know how to aim their drop and how to approach the drop the result will be the bloody same.

 

 

Someone going ham on his keyboard doesn't have an advantage over those who know how to play and don't. And reducing a factor of WG's selfmade skillgap between good and bad players to "muh EyPeeEmm" is ignorant to the point of hilarity (ergo right in the ballpark for WG when it comes to their ongoing CV nonsense ... "Year of the CV").

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Not to mention that my game seems to like dropping commands at the most crucial moments, such as ignoring the command to launch for whatever reason. That and the very fiddly UI +no maual strafe/drops on t4-5, and the fact that I relied on 1-2-3... group numbers for my rts games, not 2-3-4, which has led me to getting my cv killed serveral times cause I thought I put my fighters somewhere but made my cv end up in the middle of the enemy team(and there is no such voicelines for “group 1”)

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Thank you @El2aZeR. Maybe this myth can now finally stop. Ive said it many times before, that APM for CVs is nothing compared to "real" RTS games. Ive always thought, that people, bringing up in discussion how hard it is to play CVs cuz of the high APM unmask themselfs as bad RTS-Players right at this moment.

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The system needed only a few tweaks imo lol.

 

This new mode how stable is it under 105-130ping? wil i fly into the ocean , wil i miss my targets ? bomb aim delays (Target can dodge easily) and the sorts .. 

 

All points to a terrible future for cv gameplay!!

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I played Starcraft and I was somewhat good at it. However I find utterly stupid to tell a single SCV/Drone/Probe 100 times to go and mine a single crystal. Or tell a couple of units "move to X" 100 times more in 10 seconds.

When playing a cv while I launch my planes at the beggining of the battle usually I watch the launch in third view, or watch the surroundings, blow the horn, watch the names of both teams, etc.

Then, when I engage the enemy, I just give the apropiate orders and when the planes returns I watch the battlefield, think where I shall send the planes, what to attack, how, what to avoid, see if there is any team mates in danger and check if I can (and if it's worth) save him or not, check possible threats to my carrier (since I allways try to go to the frontline). Etc, I don't keep clicking mindlessly like if I would have a seizure.

 

shot-18_09.18_11_04.18-0690.thumb.jpg.b635be21e3d02d928a5dd16eb7a95231.jpg

shot-18_09.18_11_04.21-0765.thumb.jpg.3d3fc92012fbf7491df201f14be2874e.jpg

APM.jpg.02e442df236241c12a9340c8b844ef5f.jpg

 

Btw... This program ALSO counts writing in chat as APM. Right now I'm writing this and says I have a 165 APM in firefox.

Edited by Sargento_YO
fixed some gramatical errors.
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Clearly, there exists a too large skill gap in APM between good and bad Azur Lane players. I'll go back to playing Kancolle, I guess. 

 

Spoiler

Good post though.

 

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The difficulty of playing CV IMO isn't at all the APM, it's the divided attention.

You need to defend, spot, and attack at the same time on different side of the maps, and you can't do all of them at the same time. I have the bad tendency to completely forget air cover and concentrating on eliminating enemy fighters, spotting and attacking enemy ship. So I do 3 jobs out of 4, because I just don't have the leisure to do the fourth one without losing a lot of efficiency.

It's already bad enough when playing Kaga, I just can't keep up when playing Taiho. At best I can try to separate my planes and cover the biggest area in order to react with my fighters faster and deny any approach to the CV.

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6 hours ago, Negativvv said:

Great write up.

 

The way I'd tell it is that timing and knowing the plane's animations is far more useful than spamming APM.

 

That Farrazelleth guy doesn't seem to do all that much clicking in his tutorial videos.

 

Just wished CVs in their current form wasn't being replaced by WoWP Lite :cap_old:

Is more about what he do with keyboard he switche from airgroups with an accuracy that's amazing if i have 3 fighters group and i've to switch fast from them with keys i tend ti pick the wrong one quite often

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34 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

it's the divided attention.

You need to defend, spot, and attack at the same time on different side of the maps, and you can't do all of them at the same time.

 

And thats also something, that good/experianced RTS-Players have no real problem with. Or better: thats the meassure of skill in RTS-gameplay. WoWs just isnt really attracting people, that have experiance in RTS or are talented in RTS. Simply cuz its not advertised as such and/or the game doesnt offer enough for people, that like RTS. The UI comes to mind.

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Actions per minute isn't a very useful measurement, i usually sarcastically call apm for attention per minute, as that would be so much more useful, of course it cant be measured tho, so meh.

 

Anyhow, having higher apm than an equally strategically thinking opponent will help you to outplay him, but its not the end all be all, in any strategy game. Attention, forward planning, and strategic thinking will always be more important than apm in my book.

 

my experiences with this comes from forged alliance forever.

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10 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

And thats also something, that good/experianced RTS-Players have no real problem with. Or better: thats the meassure of skill in RTS-gameplay. WoWs just isnt really attracting people, that have experiance in RTS or are talented in RTS. Simply cuz its not advertised as such and/or the game doesnt offer enough for people, that like RTS. The UI comes to mind.

I kind of disagree. In most RTS I've played (and I never played SC2 or the like, more the Tiberium Wars series and the good old Age Of franchise), the skillset is very different to WoWS CV play.

I can manage stuff at different part of the map, no problem, in any of the RTS I've played. Simply because you control several dozens of units, not four, and they don't just melt in a second if a threat appears, like a Minotaur can do to your planes in a Taihou.

 

Basically, you can react, and it's not that hard to both manage your base and the fights. Also considering you need less micromanagement of your attacks on most RTS games. You have units specialized in dealing with some type of opponents and you use them as your advantage and using the maps layout, and you create them to fight specific opponents while still managing your ressources. But you rarely have to do something as specific as straf and counterstraf, and choosing the angle of your run. Also units are usually slower, the only fast one being the units that flies, and they have specific counters that deals tremendous damage to them. (And here I am thinking of the OP GDI teleporting bombers in Tiberium Wars xD)

 

Actually the current CV gameplay only caters to a very minority of the players. Full-on RTS players wouldn't like it, and players who never touches FPS won't either.

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Just for hilarity, someone should check apm for other classes too. I reckon with sufficient situational awareness, regularly "right-clicking" out of salvoes, maneuvering etc. some numbers would be surprising compared to the ones above.

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4 minutes ago, ShinGetsu said:

I kind of disagree. In most RTS I've played (and I never played SC2 or the like, more the Tiberium Wars series and the good old Age Of franchise), the skillset is very different to WoWS CV play.

I can manage stuff at different part of the map, no problem, in any of the RTS I've played. Simply because you control several dozens of units, not four, and they don't just melt in a second if a threat appears, like a Minotaur can do to your planes in a Taihou.

 

Basically, you can react, and it's not that hard to both manage your base and the fights. Also considering you need less micromanagement of your attacks on most RTS games. You have units specialized in dealing with some type of opponents and you use them as your advantage and using the maps layout, and you create them to fight specific opponents while still managing your ressources. But you rarely have to do something as specific as straf and counterstraf, and choosing the angle of your run. Also units are usually slower, the only fast one being the units that flies, and they have specific counters that deals tremendous damage to them. (And here I am thinking of the OP GDI teleporting bombers in Tiberium Wars xD)

 

Actually the current CV gameplay only caters to a very minority of the players. Full-on RTS players wouldn't like it, and players who never touches FPS won't either.

 

You say you disagree but what I read is actually - you fully agree with what I said ^_^. I didnt want to go so deep in an analysis. For some RTS, you are right about the micromanagement. In many games, your units will fight by themselfs. Others require you or give you the option to use special abilities, and you need to do so at the right time, to gain the advantage. Thats pretty close to managing a manual drop in WoWs. But yes, I agree: full RTS-players arent really attracted by the gameplay CVs offer. I know im not. PS: played C&C: Red Alert and Tiberian Sun ;) Many of AoE-Series, many of Total War-Series and Warcraft since the first minute. Dune II might actually been the first game of that kind, that I played.

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Raw APM and effective APM are two separate things.

 

Like OMG 1212121212121 spam doesn't count as effective :Smile_teethhappy:

 

Yeah whilst the current CV crowd is small, I still think the CV play currently offers an intriguing experience... The rework is appropriate for WG player base.

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4 hours ago, howardxu_23 said:

Not to mention that my game seems to like dropping commands at the most crucial moments, such as ignoring the command to launch for whatever reason. That and the very fiddly UI [...]

The reason for that is because the game can't cope with too much input and as such if you issue to many commands at any given time some of them simply get lost to the void.

 

I find the comparision to StarCraft hilarious, because if you tried to make skilled SC players play on an engine that will swallow up half your input there'd be a bloody riot among their competitive community.

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9 hours ago, Redcap375 said:

So you found that next level up too hard for a casual game such as this? Is that what you are saying? Just wondering.

First of all I am neither good at multitasking / APM, so RTS style gameplay never really was my type of thing. And when I was leveling through the tiers I found that the CV gameplay was so radically different from the normal gameplay that usually only the more invested (and usually better) players stuck to playing CV on a regular basis. So while I do enjoy a good competition once in a while I continuously grew to dislike the much more strenuous one-on-one CV gameplay which sometimes can induce MOBA kind of stress levels. And as constantly fighting uphill battles is no fun at all there were two basic solutions to the issue:  Either improve my own skill level from "fighting the odds" to "being the odds" or quit playing CV which I finally did.

 

tl;dr: Different CV gameplay attracts different players who usually invest more and are better players which in return can help driving casual players away due to large skill gap (both in knowledge and in excellence of execution)

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