MakeKhabarovskGeatAgain

[KillSlim]

9 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

The winrates I posted are recent winrates, not old ones....

Stop making stuff up.

 

The stats from wows-numbers take into account the performance of a ship since it gets added to the game, hence why it has 900k battles and Yueyang has 500k battles, because it's been in the game longer obviously. The 52% figure is taken from it's entire lifespan, and so it can't be cited as an accurate "recent" statistic.

 

Stop being dishonest. 

[ColonelPete]

2 hours ago, KillSlim said:

 

The stats from wows-numbers take into account the performance of a ship since it gets added to the game, hence why it has 900k battles and Yueyang has 500k battles, because it's been in the game longer obviously. The 52% figure is taken from it's entire lifespan, and so it can't be cited as an accurate "recent" statistic.

 

Stop being dishonest. 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/index.html

 

 

 

[wanninger17]

14 hours ago, KillSlim said:

I want some more replies showing Khaba is actually okay by posting some winrate stats which are skewed from back when it was OP

I was playing Khaba for the "supply lines" event because i got no big problems scoring consistent amounts of damage.

Last 21 days (all solo):

 

Overall i played Khaba mostly after the ruddershift/torp-nerf and it took me a while to get used to the bad "concealment". Nowadays it's not a problem for me anymore.

 

On 28.9.2018 at 1:03 PM, Hugh_Ruka said:

how do you avoid a ship you don't know it's there ? you seem to only be playing Khaba games where you know where all your enemy ships are ... that's generally not the case ... the other DDs usually know where the Khaba is, it does not work the other way around ....

You don't even need to know his exact position. It's usually enough to be ready to turn back and run as you get spotted by a better concealed ship (= DD). Even if Haru gets close to you undetected and starts spamming you at ~6.4km, just turn away asap, gain some distance and bring him into a very bad situation as you deal way more damage to him than he can return as long as you run away. You only might get problems if you are moving towards him as he starts fireing as reaching his concealment range, because you'll be too close to him to use your advantage (great balistics) for a few salvos. At some point (maybe around ~8-9km) it's better for him to stop shooting and get undetected. In this stage you either got 20 sec of free shooting at him or he has to smoke. As he gets undetected you can get unspotted and heal if you have to. So you might not win this duell but as long as he trys to get close to you, you still can shoot ships (CAs/BBs) behind him.

Of course your concealment (9.7km) is very bad compared to other DDs but you can use it as a "get ready to turn"-sign, as you don't want to get too close to other gunboats. So just get on a flank (where you hope to find a few BBs), as you get spotted turn slightly (so you are not nosing into the enemy DD) and see what happens: how many ships are aiming at me, is anyone shooting at me (mostly BBs+CAs). So it's kind of "passiv spotting" while you don't have to be too afraid of enemy DDs.

 

On 28.9.2018 at 1:27 PM, ColonelPete said:

Hunter Killer Teams

A Khaba should always use another friendly DD as spotter.

This is one option but Khaba can be played as the only "DD" at the flanks as well. Then of course you should not be trying to hunt DDs, but rain shells on BBs+CAs.

[ColonelPete]

22 hours ago, KillSlim said:

 

The stats from wows-numbers take into account the performance of a ship since it gets added to the game, hence why it has 900k battles and Yueyang has 500k battles, because it's been in the game longer obviously. The 52% figure is taken from it's entire lifespan, and so it can't be cited as an accurate "recent" statistic.

 

Stop being dishonest. 

[Hugh_Ruka]

On 9/29/2018 at 9:52 PM, wanninger17 said:

You don't even need to know his exact position. It's usually enough to be ready to turn back and run as you get spotted by a better concealed ship (= DD). Even if Haru gets close to you undetected and starts spamming you at ~6.4km, just turn away asap, gain some distance and bring him into a very bad situation as you deal way more damage to him than he can return as long as you run away. You only might get problems if you are moving towards him as he starts fireing as reaching his concealment range, because you'll be too close to him to use your advantage (great balistics) for a few salvos. At some point (maybe around ~8-9km) it's better for him to stop shooting and get undetected. In this stage you either got 20 sec of free shooting at him or he has to smoke. As he gets undetected you can get unspotted and heal if you have to. So you might not win this duell but as long as he trys to get close to you, you still can shoot ships (CAs/BBs) behind him.

Of course your concealment (9.7km) is very bad compared to other DDs but you can use it as a "get ready to turn"-sign, as you don't want to get too close to other gunboats. So just get on a flank (where you hope to find a few BBs), as you get spotted turn slightly (so you are not nosing into the enemy DD) and see what happens: how many ships are aiming at me, is anyone shooting at me (mostly BBs+CAs). So it's kind of "passiv spotting" while you don't have to be too afraid of enemy DDs.

For an illustration, just watch what happens to the mighty Khabrovsk in this short clip:

 

 

He killed a 15k Khaba while being radared and shot by the Khabarovsk, GK and possibly Chapayev. He lost 12k HP mostly to the other ships .... That is a model situation of how the speed and 50mm armor plate are usefull to the Khabarovsk ... same will happen with the Harugumo ... just faster ...

[ColonelPete]

At 6km....

When you mess up, you get messed up. Happens in every ship.

[wanninger17]

55 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

He killed a 15k Khaba while being radared and shot by the Khabarovsk, GK and possibly Chapayev. He lost 12k HP mostly to the other ships .... That is a model situation of how the speed and 50mm armor plate are usefull to the Khabarovsk ... same will happen with the Harugumo ... just faster ...

 

If you look at this situation you might see that their khaba is failing in so many ways:

1. B is the center-cap with no cover and the enemy team got almost no other targets to shoot at in this stage of the game

2. Khaba does not even have any friendly DD for scouting

3. B was just capped seconds before, and Khaba already got spotted once, when trying to rush the cap for the first time, so he should know that he will be spotted when entering again.

4. Khaba enters the cap with only half HP

5. Khaba is pushing nose in into at least one (unspotted) Stealth-DD: Z-52. Even if Z wanted to leave as soon as he capped, Khaba would have been spotted there anyway

6. Khaba is using boost before he has turned, bringing him even closer to all the enemies.

7. Khaba is turning broadside to a spotted Daring, the haviest AP-DD at the moment. It's almost like turning broadside 5km in front of Mino

 

1.-5. are the biggest problems. 6 and 7 were not killing him but let him die even quicker.

 

Yeah if you misplay Khaba very hard you will die very quickly. Is Harugumo/Grozo/YueYang/... a bad ship if they rush gun-blazing into a Worcester and die within seconds?

 

What I wanted to teach you:

- get to flanks where only a few ships can shoot you (especially when you got no DD spotting for you)

- don't rush DDs as long as they can run away (or have support nearby)

- don't just yolo into the next cap in early stage of the match

[Hugh_Ruka]

On 10/1/2018 at 11:49 PM, wanninger17 said:

 

If you look at this situation you might see that their khaba is failing in so many ways:

1. B is the center-cap with no cover and the enemy team got almost no other targets to shoot at in this stage of the game

2. Khaba does not even have any friendly DD for scouting

3. B was just capped seconds before, and Khaba already got spotted once, when trying to rush the cap for the first time, so he should know that he will be spotted when entering again.

4. Khaba enters the cap with only half HP

5. Khaba is pushing nose in into at least one (unspotted) Stealth-DD: Z-52. Even if Z wanted to leave as soon as he capped, Khaba would have been spotted there anyway

6. Khaba is using boost before he has turned, bringing him even closer to all the enemies.

7. Khaba is turning broadside to a spotted Daring, the haviest AP-DD at the moment. It's almost like turning broadside 5km in front of Mino

 

1.-5. are the biggest problems. 6 and 7 were not killing him but let him die even quicker.

 

Yeah if you misplay Khaba very hard you will die very quickly. Is Harugumo/Grozo/YueYang/... a bad ship if they rush gun-blazing into a Worcester and die within seconds?

 

What I wanted to teach you:

- get to flanks where only a few ships can shoot you (especially when you got no DD spotting for you)

- don't rush DDs as long as they can run away (or have support nearby)

- don't just yolo into the next cap in early stage of the match

So basically you wanted to say: Khaba can only run away in this situatiomn which is what he was doing basically .... Which is about the only thing the Khaba is good for now with that speed ...

What you are saying is that because of the crap concealment and crap rudder shift that Khaba had no chance against a single Daring even when supported by 2 other ships ... And when I point out to these exact issues I am laughed at here ... look at the reality. Very few maps have the space now for the Khaba to do anything without concealment however that just gets him killed because of the speed (too much) and rudder shift (too little). An Udaloi is vastly superior in almost all situations here ... it can do both, semi-concealed and high speed if you respec it. Khaba cannot do anything other than speed. With new DDs surpasing him in gun performance (Grozovoi, Daring, Harugumo ...) there's nothing left.

 

Btw. on that particular map both flanks have heavy island cover and limited space to manouver for the Khaba (and WG is continuing that trend with the "new" Islands of Ice and Northern LIghts (or how that map is called). That player was doing the only reasonable thing to do, stay in the middle where he has open water. Unfortunately he had no friendly DD to provide spotting and he has not enough HP to withdraw in these situations ....

 

EDIT: just played an evening of Khaba games ... I saw a Harugumo smoke up 10km from a Musashi and basically melt him ... Khaba would never be able to do that ... does not have the gun performance....

 

On 10/1/2018 at 11:26 PM, ColonelPete said:

At 6km....

When you mess up, you get messed up. Happens in every ship.

So much for the "How the hell can Daring catch a Khaba ..." Weren't you saying something that it should not happen ? Oh wait ... RPF is now a mandatory skill for the Khaba to avoid stealthy DDs .... sadly we only have 19 point captains ...

[ColonelPete]

11 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

So much for the "How the hell can Daring catch a Khaba ..." Weren't you saying something that it should not happen ? Oh wait ... RPF is now a mandatory skill for the Khaba to avoid stealthy DDs .... sadly we only have 19 point captains ...

It should not. I think wanninger17 explained quite extensivly what the player did wrong.

On 28/09/2018 at 1:27 PM, ColonelPete said:

Hunter Killer Teams

A Khaba should always use another friendly DD as spotter.

If there is non, you play extra careful and stay close to your team. Any Daring opening fire at 6km will face multiple enemies in 6 to 8 km.

2 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

At 6km....

When you mess up, you get messed up. Happens in every ship.

 

[wanninger17]

50 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

So basically you wanted to say: Khaba can only run away in this situatiomn which is what he was doing basically .... Which is about the only thing the Khaba is good for now with that speed ...

What you are saying is that because of the crap concealment and crap rudder shift that Khaba had no chance against a single Daring even when supported by 2 other ships ... And when I point out to these exact issues I am laughed at here ... look at the reality. Very few maps have the space now for the Khaba to do anything without concealment however that just gets him killed because of the speed (too much) and rudder shift (too little). An Udaloi is vastly superior in almost all situations here ... it can do both, semi-concealed and high speed if you respec it. Khaba cannot do anything other than speed. With new DDs surpasing him in gun performance (Grozovoi, Daring, Harugumo ...) there's nothing left.

 

Btw. on that particular map both flanks have heavy island cover and limited space to manouver for the Khaba (and WG is continuing that trend with the "new" Islands of Ice and Northern LIghts (or how that map is called). That player was doing the only reasonable thing to do, stay in the middle where he has open water. Unfortunately he had no friendly DD to provide spotting and he has not enough HP to withdraw in these situations ....

What i want to say: Khaba is extremly usefull when slowing down, damaging and tanking multiple BBs and (some) CAs. In later stages of the game you can approach other DDs. Maybe you won't kill them within 20 sec, but you will force most of them to run.

Actually i can't say much about Daring, afaik she is still work in progress, wait till release and we'll see.

 

In that situation Khaba had support of Kurfürst maybe kind of support of Chap, both far behind khaba without big impact on khabas opponents (Chap can't shoot Daring, Kürfürst needs at least 2-3 perfect salvos to kill Daring), while khaba is getting shot by 2 Closerange-DDs and Yamato, maybe even Cleve.

 

You want to see the "reality"? Check out this screenshot (solo only, ~90% played post-nerfs):

 

Khaba is not built to have that "instant-impact" by capping, solo-killing DDs, oneshotting BBs/CAs but Khaba can get huge and very reliable impact over time. If you don't believe it, just play any Hightier-BB and get farmed by Khaba at 13 km.

I would not even say ships like Harugumo are performing better with guns, at higher ranges (~8km+) Khaba will outgun any other DD.

 

When i say Khaba is not made for stealth-capping in early stage, that does not mean you can't sit in caps behind islands and block that cap all day long. Esp. the new Islands of Ice got Islands in every cap, if you want to you can rush into those positions and block the cap. But remember that you won't deal damage while you sit there.

 

Coming back to the situation in Notser's video: I don't know what the other DDs did, but rushing B with Khaba at the beginning was the worst option by far. If you want/have to cap with Khaba, at least give your enemy a chance to spread out.

I don't know if you understand my points, but if you really think Khaba should have dominated (or at least survived) that situation you got a very strange opinion on how to balance ships.

 

 

tl;dr: Khaba is strong if not even very strong when played correctly, bad when you got no idea what you are doing and even above average in hands of average players.

[Hugh_Ruka]

On 10/2/2018 at 1:37 AM, ColonelPete said:

It should not. I think wanninger17 explained quite extensivly what the player did wrong.

 

 

 

in that case you are more usefull in a radar cruiser anyway ... you have more firepower, you have about the same concealment as the Khaba (Worcester. Mino ...) and you have more HP with longer effective range ... What is the point of taking the Khaba anyway ?

 

On 10/2/2018 at 2:08 AM, wanninger17 said:

What i want to say: Khaba is extremly usefull when slowing down, damaging and tanking multiple BBs and (some) CAs. In later stages of the game you can approach other DDs. Maybe you won't kill them within 20 sec, but you will force most of them to run.

Actually i can't say much about Daring, afaik she is still work in progress, wait till release and we'll see.

 

In that situation Khaba had support of Kurfürst maybe kind of support of Chap, both far behind khaba without big impact on khabas opponents (Chap can't shoot Daring, Kürfürst needs at least 2-3 perfect salvos to kill Daring), while khaba is getting shot by 2 Closerange-DDs and Yamato, maybe even Cleve.

 

You want to see the "reality"? Check out this screenshot (solo only, ~90% played post-nerfs):

 

Khaba is not built to have that "instant-impact" by capping, solo-killing DDs, oneshotting BBs/CAs but Khaba can get huge and very reliable impact over time. If you don't believe it, just play any Hightier-BB and get farmed by Khaba at 13 km.

I would not even say ships like Harugumo are performing better with guns, at higher ranges (~8km+) Khaba will outgun any other DD.

 

When i say Khaba is not made for stealth-capping in early stage, that does not mean you can't sit in caps behind islands and block that cap all day long. Esp. the new Islands of Ice got Islands in every cap, if you want to you can rush into those positions and block the cap. But remember that you won't deal damage while you sit there.

 

Coming back to the situation in Notser's video: I don't know what the other DDs did, but rushing B with Khaba at the beginning was the worst option by far. If you want/have to cap with Khaba, at least give your enemy a chance to spread out.

I don't know if you understand my points, but if you really think Khaba should have dominated (or at least survived) that situation you got a very strange opinion on how to balance ships.

tl;dr: Khaba is strong if not even very strong when played correctly, bad when you got no idea what you are doing and even above average in hands of average players.

That Khaba had 15000 hp when Notser engaged, Notser had 0 damage. At Khab death Notser had 14200 damage ... I leave the conclusion to you how much other ships contributed ....

[ColonelPete]

11 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

in that case you are more usefull in a radar cruiser anyway ... you have more firepower, you have about the same concealment as the Khaba (Worcester. Mino ...) and you have more HP with longer effective range ... What is the point of taking the Khaba anyway ?

Just the fact that you can shoot your guns, until the they glow white, without the fear of getting citadelled out of the game....

Btw, Khaba has a higher average damage than Mino.

[wanninger17]

3 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

That Khaba had 15000 hp when Notser engaged, Notser had 0 damage. At Khab death Notser had 14200 damage ... I leave the conclusion to you how much other ships contributed ....

It doesn't matter.

As i said: Khaba can have huge impact over time. As you have to operate spotted most of the time it's not a good idea risking a lot of your hp in the first minutes of the match.

Being shot when trying to enter B for the first time, already cost a lot of hitpoints, why would you even think about going back a few seconds later?

 

Let's assume Khaba had the old pre-nerf ruddershift in this situation. As (mis)played here Khaba would have been dead as well.

[Malfuss]

On 02/10/2018 at 10:37 AM, Hugh_Ruka said:

That Khaba had 15000 hp when Notser engaged, Notser had 0 damage. At Khab death Notser had 14200 damage ... I leave the conclusion to you how much other ships contributed ....

 

A misplay is a misplay no matter what, that Khaba misplayed, end of story. Chances are if Notser had been in the Khaba it might have been different. Not to mention the Khaba was healing as he was being shot, he was almost at 16k when it started and you can clearly see shots coming in and damaging the Khaba.

 

Currently the Khaba does not need buffing, it might do in the future but I doubt it. Haragumo's don't present a problem from the few I've come up against. Only 1 of my games was in the pre-nerf Khaba so most of my experience is after the nerf, the Khaba is still a very strong ship when playing it to it's advantages, capping is not one of them as Notsers video shows.

[Hugh_Ruka]

22 hours ago, Malfuss said:

 

A misplay is a misplay no matter what, that Khaba misplayed, end of story. Chances are if Notser had been in the Khaba it might have been different. Not to mention the Khaba was healing as he was being shot, he was almost at 16k when it started and you can clearly see shots coming in and damaging the Khaba.

 

Currently the Khaba does not need buffing, it might do in the future but I doubt it. Haragumo's don't present a problem from the few I've come up against. Only 1 of my games was in the pre-nerf Khaba so most of my experience is after the nerf, the Khaba is still a very strong ship when playing it to it's advantages, capping is not one of them as Notsers video shows.

There was no misplay on the Khaba part. Yes he got detected "early" but last time I played that map in a Khava, my stock detection with camo (full rudder build) was HALF the map ... He had no clue Notser was there, he was heading for island cover basically to be shielded from one side.

 

There are too many world top experts in this thread (me included :-)) in what should happen in optimal circumstances. Trouble is, even in optimal circumstances Khaba lost a lot to Harugumo and the Daring. I mean look at this thread. Speed and armor (ON A DD !!!) are emphasized as strong points. You don't have enough EHP for the plate to matter in a DD even in a Khaba. A few good volleys will sink you same as for other DDs.

 

Harugumo has the best damage application for HE and Daring in current form in AP in ANY range shooting same targets that are presented as viable for the Khabarovsk (i.e. other DDs and BBs) while both have much more usable torps and defense measures (smoke, hydro). Yes they are slower and Harugumo turns like a pregnant whale, but so does the Khaba. Speed for Khaba is required because of the crap concealment. The other DDs don't need it that much, they have better chances to go out of the way of hostiles because they have a large buffer in concealment.

[ColonelPete]

They do not hit at ANY range. Khaba does.

[Malfuss]

1 hour ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

There was no misplay on the Khaba part. Yes he got detected "early"

How can you not say that was a misplay? He sailed into a cap not knowing what was there, got within 6km of a Daring and about 7-8km of a Z-52, he misplayed end of story. A Gearing, Yueyang or even a Z52 would rip him a new one at that distance especially with support. If you are trying to play a Khaba as a normal DD no wonder you are struggling with it and calling for buffs.

 

Khaba's are not designed for capping, let alone when you don't know where the opposing DD's are. Use the Khaba for what it is currently designed for, maximum range engagements using your speed as the tank. I wouldn't take on many gunboat DD's at that close a range especially with other ships that close by, even if I win I'd be taking serious damage.

[wanninger17]

@Basti542 help please!

[Hugh_Ruka]

On 10/8/2018 at 5:40 PM, Malfuss said:

How can you not say that was a misplay? He sailed into a cap not knowing what was there, got within 6km of a Daring and about 7-8km of a Z-52, he misplayed end of story. A Gearing, Yueyang or even a Z52 would rip him a new one at that distance especially with support. If you are trying to play a Khaba as a normal DD no wonder you are struggling with it and calling for buffs.

 

Khaba's are not designed for capping, let alone when you don't know where the opposing DD's are. Use the Khaba for what it is currently designed for, maximum range engagements using your speed as the tank. I wouldn't take on many gunboat DD's at that close a range especially with other ships that close by, even if I win I'd be taking serious damage.

Again, in that case I can use a radar cruiser and be much more useful to the team ... or an RN cruiser to go with the DD style of play ... There's no place for a Khabarovsk anymore other than a speed boat ... and the new French bathtub has that one covered better ...

 

On 10/8/2018 at 3:50 PM, ColonelPete said:

They do not hit at ANY range. Khaba does.

then you don't know how to shoot .... I have no problem hitting in an Atlanta at AFT ranges ... not as easy as 4km, but still very much viable ...

[ColonelPete]

6 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

then you don't know how to shoot .... I have no problem hitting in an Atlanta at AFT ranges ... not as easy as 4km, but still very much viable ...

Yeah, probably an evading DD too....

Now as you say it, I remember meeting such sharp shooting Atlantas all the time.

Flight time differences of 50% are no problem. Going for range to get protection in this game is completly useless as people hit you the same as if you were closer 

 

Btw, congratulations to your new account damage record, ..... in a Khaba. Such a weak ship....

[Malfuss]

11 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Again, in that case I can use a radar cruiser

Really? Personally I think a DD that can take on the opposing radar cruisers would be better, I would also prefer a Khaba to a non-radar cruiser as I know it doesn't have a citadel to cause it to be wiped from the game in 1 volley (unless misplayed of course).

 

At the end of the day, I love the Khaba and even though a buff would be in my favour, I still think it's a strong enough ship as it currently stands. I haven't come up against a Daring yet, just like no-one else has in this thread, until I do I will reserve my judgement on whether it needs buffing and I won't be calling for pre-emptive buffs. 

[fumtu]

1 hour ago, Malfuss said:

I haven't come up against a Daring yet, just like no-one else has in this thread, until I do I will reserve my judgement on whether it needs buffing and I won't be calling for pre-emptive buffs. 

 

If Daring ends to be too strong WG should nerf Daring not buff Khaba or any other DD because of that. Daring should be bring on the level of other DDs not the other way around.

[Malfuss]

1 hour ago, fumtu said:

 

If Daring ends to be too strong WG should nerf Daring not buff Khaba or any other DD because of that. Daring should be bring on the level of other DDs not the other way around.

Well said!

[Hugh_Ruka]

On 10/9/2018 at 1:20 PM, fumtu said:

 

If Daring ends to be too strong WG should nerf Daring not buff Khaba or any other DD because of that. Daring should be bring on the level of other DDs not the other way around.

Because we've seen that happen with the Harugumo/KItakaze right ? They were released OP as hell and it was also hinted in CC videos that they are a bit over the top. WG never listens to player feedback, they only listen to their own voices ...

[fumtu]

11 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Because we've seen that happen with the Harugumo/KItakaze right ? They were released OP as hell and it was also hinted in CC videos that they are a bit over the top. WG never listens to player feedback, they only listen to their own voices ...

 

Both Haragumo/Kitakaze are recent addition to the game. WG usually don't nerf ships that soon after release, only very rarely if there is an outcry from a player base, like in the cases of Conqueror and Wooster, but even then very reluctantly. Khaba was OP for more than a year before WG started implementing nerfs. Usually they collect data for almost a year and then according to their stats they decide does the ship needs nerf of buff or whatever. YY and other PA DDs received first nerf almost eight month after release. So the thing that Haragumo/Kitakaze are not nerfed so far desn't mean that they won't be nerfed in the future. Same situation is with Daring with is just released to the game. Sorry but all stats are showing that Khaba is still really good and even in recent Q&A with S_O he confirmed that they are consider Khaba fine in current state and have no intention to  change anything for now.