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NothingButTheRain

What's with the DD meta these days?

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And what's with all the camping inside the smoke farming damage instead of contesting?

They get on top of the score charts often so I see why they would feel inclined to keep this behavior up.

 

I see it happen that we're pushing some flank, then suddenly our DD pops smoke and starts daka daka (and no more spotting of course) while the rest of the team gets focussed fired and the push crumbles and dies.

They pop smoke to start their daka daka and suddenly all reds get unspotted :Smile_facepalm:

 

They get good damage, but I'm waiting for targets to get spotted so am missing out on damage.

 

I feel like I'm too often on DD hunting patrol duty instead of the DDs as they are too busy farming enemy BBs. Obviously the enemy DDs are farming me in whatever BB or CA I happen to be sailing in. I've been torped several times today, because the flanks were insecure or because I had to push a flank in a BB as we would otherwise get a loss regardless (usually I won't succeed, many other players stick in the back as well).

 

At the start of a battle, I often see our DDs going around the caps and a BB or CA/CL ends up doing the capping, wtf?? :Smile_amazed:

 

What's wrong with DD meta these days? Was the smoke nerf maybe not enough? And why are DDs rewarded for such selfish gameplay?

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4 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

And why are DDs rewarded for such selfish gameplay?

 

Because damage is the only thing that gets rewarded nowadays.

Friendly reminder that cap exp has been nerfed hard and everything else gives :etc_swear: all rewards.

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47 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

At the start of a battle, I often see our DDs going around the caps and a BB or CA/CL ends up doing the capping, wtf?? :Smile_amazed:

 

What's wrong with DD meta these days? Was the smoke nerf maybe not enough? And why are DDs rewarded for such selfish gameplay?

On the contrary. Capping or getting spotted these days is too dangerous as smoke is unreliable as a disengage tool (radar).

Getting spotted in a DD means getting instagibbed /chunked for 50-100% and risk being useless (=dead) the rest of the game.

The solution is dont risk getting spotted in the first place (just like CL and CAs have it with BBs), or at least avoid radar ships (requires open water to see them coming)

 

Ofc the effect of the behaviour you observe depends on player skill.

Bad players / players who dont care about winning do it because....

42 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Because damage is the only thing that gets rewarded nowadays.

Friendly reminder that cap exp has been nerfed hard and everything else gives :etc_swear: all rewards.

 

Better players might superficially do the same, but going around the caps is actually the means to cap them later.

 

This meta was already used in Ranked S9 high leagues as one of the best way to carry random ranked teams. 

Flank the usual capping spots in DD and if enemy tries to cap ==>  have radar CA pop radar + smoke yourself and blow up the capping dd. 

Alternately, getting a DD behind enemy lines to permaspot and torp usual radar CA positions draws off huge forces.

If enemy dds do the same, have a fight on the edge of the map where the impact of backup (BB AP, looking at you here) has minimal chance of :etc_swear: up your ship and battle plan.

 

TL; DR

Too dangerous to cap nowadays + paltry rewards. Why take the risk?

Solution: increas cap Xp and spotting Xp (and tone down damage Xp for DDs)

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2 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

 

What's wrong with DD meta these days? Was the smoke nerf maybe not enough? And why are DDs rewarded for such selfish gameplay?

 

From my point of view the problems are many, the overpopulation of RADAR is the first one. Why risk your life contesting a cap when you cant be sure the RADAR ship gets nuked even if you spot them. 

 

Second is the latest destroyers added to the game, IJN gunboats, just like when RN battleships made more players shot HE with battleships the YouTube-vids and success of IJN gunboat playstyle make more players copy that into hybrid destroyers. 

 

The third problem is the spotting mechanics, the reward for it is to small. I spot a vessel, he gets shot, or he shots himself, no matter what I get maximum 1 salvo in spotting damage since everyone can spot him after he fires. Meaning I am not earning anything for those 20 seconds he is spotted unless I proxy spot him in smoke or similar. 

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1 hour ago, NothingButTheRain said:

And what's with all the camping inside the smoke farming damage instead of contesting?

They get on top of the score charts often so I see why they would feel inclined to keep this behavior up.

A bunch of reasons off the top of my hat:

1. Radar. LOTS of Radar. DDs tend to either take a shallow dip into the cap to bait Radar or they don't even bother - early attempts to cap are punished hard.

2. IJN DD craze. It's a bit like what we saw with RN BBs firing HE - we got some ships that are extremely effective at daka-daka so good players do it to great effect, bed players do it to worse effect (because they forget that torps exist AND someone needs to still spot the enemies if they smoke up) and other bad players see how well it (somteimes) works and start copying the behavior in ships and situations much less suited for the tactic in question

3. Support deficit - DDs don't feel like spotting is worthwhile because it puts them in danger and actual effects depend on the team being able to capitalize on their work

4. Rewards - are handed out for damaging enemies, mostly. If you want to be rewarded, you need to deal damage AND if you deal damage, you get positive feedback from the game in the form of end results. It should be noted that to actually get close to the top the DD usually needs to indeed do some heavy lifting in the damage department, though, so it's not like they get rewarded for nothing (especially considering that the best source of XP for DDs is other DDs, since they can get close and smaller numbers translate to bigger % and - due to that - more XP for the damage)

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DD play gets really boring when you are pretty much required to lose 50% of your hitpoints in the first 3 minutes. Sailing towards a cap while their are 4 ships behind an island 6 km away that can't see to support you makes capping fraught.

 

And then there are the new IJN DDs that are just sooo much fun for bullying CAs

 

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Lots of good points already raised.

I totally agree with most of them, radar makes it unreliable for DDs to just contest the cap.

 

BB AP which is effective at long ranges also makes it very difficult to be spotted for even a very short time, let alone knife fight other DDs.

 

 

Had a match with a friend, we both in Khabas, and took B cap on Mountain Range while being under fire and ofc shooting back. It was just hillarious!

Very few DDs can actually do that though and since you either get spotted by radar or another DD in the cap there is a high risk to die at the start of the round.


 

 

It is possible to cap at the start but radar ships make it really hard! As someone who played all classes being a good DD is alot more difficult than BB or CA/CL.

If you are usefull though you usually sway the battle harder in your favour than in the other classes (except CV).

The opposit is also true, if your own DDs fail you it is going to be a real uphill battle, especially if the enemy DDs are good.

 

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4 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

And what's with all the camping inside the smoke farming damage instead of contesting?

They get on top of the score charts often so I see why they would feel inclined to keep this behavior up.

 

I see it happen that we're pushing some flank, then suddenly our DD pops smoke and starts daka daka (and no more spotting of course) while the rest of the team gets focussed fired and the push crumbles and dies.

They pop smoke to start their daka daka and suddenly all reds get unspotted :Smile_facepalm:

 

They get good damage, but I'm waiting for targets to get spotted so am missing out on damage.

 

I feel like I'm too often on DD hunting patrol duty instead of the DDs as they are too busy farming enemy BBs. Obviously the enemy DDs are farming me in whatever BB or CA I happen to be sailing in. I've been torped several times today, because the flanks were insecure or because I had to push a flank in a BB as we would otherwise get a loss regardless (usually I won't succeed, many other players stick in the back as well).

 

At the start of a battle, I often see our DDs going around the caps and a BB or CA/CL ends up doing the capping, wtf?? :Smile_amazed:

 

What's wrong with DD meta these days? Was the smoke nerf maybe not enough? And why are DDs rewarded for such selfish gameplay?

If no red is spotted, how do they do damage?

Smoke firing without Hydro support is very dangerous, especially early in the game.

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DDs most important job is screening your fat BB from other DDs (ie torps) and in return your most important job in a BB is to get rid of radar cruisers for them thats why you push with them, if a dd knows where torps are likely to come from (either via rl or experience) ofc they should go out in that direction to either kill the dd firing them (gearing or yy are espetially good at that kind of work) or expose a cruiser so you can blap them, going straight in the cap early on in high tiers really is not such a good idea exept in few specific circumstances.

Smoke firing with undetecting of all targets ussualy means musjudgement of los (expecting others teamates can see them when in fact they cant) of ally ships but i sometimes like to lay smoke for ally in a way to start smoking and slow down and pop of few salvoes in the process then when i brake detection if i see enemy is not spoted properly i dart out of smoke and its usually spotting+torping time

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6 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

And what's with all the camping inside the smoke farming damage instead of contesting?

They get on top of the score charts often so I see why they would feel inclined to keep this behavior up.

 

I see it happen that we're pushing some flank, then suddenly our DD pops smoke and starts daka daka (and no more spotting of course) while the rest of the team gets focussed fired and the push crumbles and dies.

They pop smoke to start their daka daka and suddenly all reds get unspotted :Smile_facepalm:

 

They get good damage, but I'm waiting for targets to get spotted so am missing out on damage.

 

I

 

First of all as @El2aZeR rightly pointed out - all XP except damage has been nerfed to :etc_swear: , as that is strategic direction that  WG has taken - to dumb down the game. and reduce it to a simple RNG shoot at ships console and mobile phone friendly game. 

 

As a DD main, I can tell you that what I do in a game  basically depends on the team. If I see that I will have support and that BBs and cruisers are not border humping, I will play more aggressively and fight for caps, etc. If not, even after calling out for support and not getting it, or trying to help the ones that can't be helped (i.e. smoking a CA with very low health and they just sail through your smoke to their death) then I change my play to damage farming, as the game is already lost.

 

At the end of the day - the full blame for cautious and  occasionally selfish DD behavior is on WG ,  because they have chosen to :

 

1. Have no real reward for teamplay 

2. Dragging their feet on BB AP on DDs. It is still "being fixed" for more than a year

3. Introduction of  hydro  and radar to many DDs, hydro and radar to most of the crusiers

4. Reducing capping XP resulting in a dismal profit/risk ratio for capping

5. Introduction of more dakka-dakka DD hunters with every new release

6 ..... 

 

Have a great day and if you want to change this, start by being close to battle and support your CAs who should support DDs. 

 

#DDLivesMatterToo!!

 

 

 

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Why should a DD take any risk whatsoever to contest a cap, when his island hugging mates appear extremely unlikely to be able to defend it anyway? The copying playstyles effect is real, but it's not the DDs that are the problem here. US CLs taught everybody that the only thing better than an island is an even bigger and higher island and so we now have an even more passive meta. Your best bet in a DD is to play as risk averse as the rest and stay alive until the first players have broken down and left cover to get focussed down. We need to rename high tiers to mikado tiers, because the first one to move looses.

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Because its more enjoyable, and most people play the game to have fun.

 

I mean, to cap you basically sail into a circle and sit there for a minute... not really that exciting.

 

Shooting things, on the other hand, is very entertaining. Especially if you happen to get the last hit or watch as they helplessly burn down.

 

It kind of sucks for the rest of the team, and a competent player can easily cap/spot and do damage, but after playing a few games and its easy to see that this game isn't exactly full of competent players. So the end result is they would rather do damage.

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Almost as if once patches with cruisers wears off, we're back to seeing the consequences of YEARS of pandering to BBs in everything including the way XP is attributed.

You want less DDs?
Make BBs less attractive and have less of them per game.

 

Quite frankly, it'll be better for DDs as well, because right now half of the time your battle hinges on you having the right DDs.
Have too many Z-52s, Harugumos, etc... in the opposite team? RIP your DDs capping. So your chances of winning goes down the drain.
4-5 DDs per side is even worse for DDs than it is for BBs. 

 

 

So yeah, nerf BBs in order to buff BBs.

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In my asashio i see often BB fireing at BB when there are also good CA targets present.

So in one of my last games there was a BB behind me that could fire at a Montana or a Des Moines when i was in run to torp the Montana, what did the BB it fires on the Montana and the Des Moines had fun in set him on fire again and again.

So come on , my asashio torps can only harm BB or CV so why he is shooting at my prime target instead of my prime danger ship?

And such selfish "i choose the easy target to make more damage" are seen more and more, so why should i help BBabys to get more damage when they give a [edited]on mine?

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As others mentioned it; the rewards. You can cap as much as you want to still hit the lower part of the result screen, while dodging all the incoming shells. 

 

The exp system needs a rework. I can imagine that some backsitting BBs think they did a good job because they ended on top, while in reality failed to help with a push. 

 

Somewhat of a boost for capping, spotting damage and potential damage. A nerf for damage itself.

Potential damage might be weird due torps. Would prefer something based on the actual damage you take.

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8 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Better players might superficially do the same, but going around the caps is actually the means to cap them later.

Totally agree... Funnily enough this has led to a rather comical situation where Mogami is now by far my leading "Capper" ship in the fleet (1or 2 caps in nearly every game last weekend, for example). Oh well, whatever works I guess. :Smile_great::Smile_Default:

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6 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

As others mentioned it; the rewards. You can cap as much as you want to still hit the lower part of the result screen, while dodging all the incoming shells. 

 

The exp system needs a rework. I can imagine that some backsitting BBs think they did a good job because they ended on top, while in reality failed to help with a push. 

 

Somewhat of a boost for capping, spotting damage and potential damage. A nerf for damage itself.

Potential damage might be weird due torps. Would prefer something based on the actual damage you take.

..... and that is one of the reasons I am not interested in ranked anymore...

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This is one of the biggest problems at the moment

unknown.png

11 Radars in one game. 
It took me 7 minutes to take B cap because i reversed in from the northern spawn and every time i was under radar i left the cap and hugged the island. 
and Yes we won because of me taking B and then defending it like a territorial Canadian goose with support from the Mass and one of the Worcester's.

Torps down channels hurt pushing battleships. 

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20 minutes ago, Zen71_sniper said:

..... and that is one of the reasons I am not interested in ranked anymore...

If WG wanted to promote team play in Ranked it would have had some changes over the years. Since it didn't you are only fooling yourself for taking risks that can make you lose first spot on a losing team. Farm that damage :cap_viking: 

Though having a super smooth team in Ranked is one of the best things in WOWS, even when you lose.

 

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5 minutes ago, JaiFoh said:

This is one of the biggest problems at the moment

unknown.png

11 Radars in one game. 

Radar Hsienyang in randoms? Really?

 

Also,

9 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

They get good damage, but I'm waiting for targets to get spotted so am missing out on damage.

If the reds go dark, how? And no, they don't get good damage, unless they have guns capable of penning other ships. For most DDs smoking up and opening fire is not damage farming, it's shooting yourself in the leg, as you announce your position, likely get torped by your counterpart, ussing your least effective armament to try set fires. That's no case of "but cap exp got nerfed" or "it's justified if noone supports", but simply one of being unable to realise what proper BB play is. And when you have no clue about what guns can and cannot pen, I doubt you realised how much exp a cap is worth anyway.

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On 9/17/2018 at 6:57 AM, Exocet6951 said:

Quite frankly, it'll be better for DDs as well, because right now half of the time your battle hinges on you having the right DDs.

Have too many Z-52s, Harugumos, etc... in the opposite team? RIP your DDs capping. So your chances of winning goes down the drain.
4-5 DDs per side is even worse for DDs than it is for BBs.

Yeeah, I can confirm that from recent bitter personal experience too. Had a game on Sunday, where the opposing team had a cancer division of a Worchester, Harugumo and a Gearing with RPF. We had no radars. AND as fate would have it they were right at the B cap on "Mountain Range" map where I was heading to with my trusty Shima (thank God Shima is actually slightly faster than any of these or I'd been toasted several times over)... :cap_viking:

 

Survived the encounter (just barely) and went on to have a decent game (5.556 XP earned - Yeah, I had signals on) by bravely running away, but oh yes, we lost the game hands down with most of our DD's getting murdered by the terrible 3. I was the only survivor of our team in the end. All of the 3 in that enemy division survived. Though I very nearly got the Gearing in a furious gunfight, he only had 10 HP left when they got their 1000 points rather prematurely full and the game ended, da*mmits...:Smile_smile:

giphy.gif

I tell you it is quite amazing / horrifying the amount of fire those 3 can spew out, when they focus-fire on just 1 target (in this case, poor ole' me), found myself frequently rather lacking in both hiding places and dodging options to be sure. Otherwise I'm happy with that battle tho...:cap_like:

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28 minutes ago, JaiFoh said:

This is one of the biggest problems at the moment

unknown.png

11 Radars in one game. 

The average is below 2 per team....

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Another reason for DDs trying make dmg in the first place is the 3 weeks clan competition  which just ended. The competition reward ONLY dmg for all classes.

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10 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

*snip*

 

Woah there, kemosabe.

 

You are looking at this whole situation the wrong way.

 

10 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

And what's with all the camping inside the smoke farming damage instead of contesting?

They get on top of the score charts often so I see why they would feel inclined to keep this behavior up.

 

If they top the score charts it means you and your fellow BB/CA did virtually nothing. They keep that behavior up because it's a safe and reliable way of impacting the game.

 

 

10 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I see it happen that we're pushing some flank, then suddenly our DD pops smoke and starts daka daka (and no more spotting of course) while the rest of the team gets focussed fired and the push crumbles and dies.

They pop smoke to start their daka daka and suddenly all reds get unspotted :Smile_facepalm:

 

I am sure you realize that this means that you're behind an island somewhere safe while they are doing all the spotting and getting nothing for it, right?

Like if the whole enemy team disappears when they pop smoke it means that literally your whole team is hiding. (unless the whole enemy team magically decides to not fire their guns)

 

 

10 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

They get good damage, but I'm waiting for targets to get spotted so am missing out on damage.

 

You are no more entitled to do damage than they are. The only reason you are "missing out" on damage is because you are too far from the front lines to spot yourself.

DDs do not owe you anything.

 

 

10 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I feel like I'm too often on DD hunting patrol duty instead of the DDs as they are too busy farming enemy BBs. Obviously the enemy DDs are farming me in whatever BB or CA I happen to be sailing in. I've been torped several times today, because the flanks were insecure or because I had to push a flank in a BB as we would otherwise get a loss regardless (usually I won't succeed, many other players stick in the back as well).

 

Everyone is on DD hunting patrol duty. If you think you ever aren't and should be focusing on anything else, you are wrong.

Priority targets: are DDs -> Radar cruisers -> No Radar cruisers -> everything else

 

And you shouldn't be putting BBs and CAs in the same category here. If enemy DDs are farming you in your BB then that is perfect. That is your job. Any damage that you take is damage that your CAs/DDs didn't take.

If enemy DDs are farming you in your CA then you have done something seriously wrong.

 

If you get torpedoed a lot then equip hydro or even potentially take Radio Location until you start to learn how DDs play. You also have Vigilence.

 

 

10 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

At the start of a battle, I often see our DDs going around the caps and a BB or CA/CL ends up doing the capping, wtf?? :Smile_amazed:

 

If a BB is in a situation to cap a point then it probably means that your DDs have actually done a fair deal of work. If a cap is safe enough for anyone to cap then anyone SHOULD cap it.

Also if a BB gets radared, meh. If a DD gets radared it can mean he might contract a fatal case of enemy shell poisoning.

 

 

10 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

What's wrong with DD meta these days? Was the smoke nerf maybe not enough? And why are DDs rewarded for such selfish gameplay?

 

No, see it's the other way around. DDs have gotten quite a few nerfs (some direct some indirect) so now it's no longer safe to contest caps or hunt down enemy DDs.

This is especially true for the original DD lines.

If a Shima runs into a Harugumo, z52 or Grozo then it will just straight up die. The Gearing also doesn't do well against those 3 and what's more it's a BB AP magnet.

 

This gameplay you describe is about as selfish as that of any other class.

 

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