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Procrastes

Advanced Firing Training, or Fire Prevention, on my German battleships?

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Second thoughts about my German secondaries

 

When I first leveled up my German Grossadmiral, whom I put in charge of all my favourite battleships, there was little doubt as to which two level 4 skills I would train him in. I took Concealment Expert as the first one, and Advanced Firing Training as the second. Having that overbearing range on those glorious secondary guns was just too tempting, and the boost to my AA range was a nice bonus.

 

I've stuck it out with this skill choice for the longest time. It's still fun lighting up everything that dares to even think about coming close enough to torp rush me, and having the edge in secondary gun range is always very useful in a brawl. But lately, I've begun to seriously consider switching Advanced Firing Training for Fire Prevention. I don't mind a barbecue party now and then, but sometimes - just sometimes - always being on fire starts getting on my nerves. In any other battleship than a German one, the choice would be pretty easy - I'd go for Fire Prevention any day - but those wonderful secondaries are such a big part of what it means to be a German battleship!

 

So I'm putting the question to you, fellow forumites: What are your thoughts on this matter? What's your advice?

 

Thanks in advance! :Smile_honoring:

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In the current Meta?

Im not really into Secondaries anymore.

 

Back when i played Gneisenau and Bismarck, it was kinda ok. But the Meta wasnt that campy either. Then didnt play for some time and played FDG couple of matches lately and the secondaries are just not worth it.

Ill probably FreeXP myself to GK (for the SC, but not 100% sure yet) and i dont think secondary GK is fun to play right now. My build so far was Manual Secondaries and AFT, since i felt gneisenau and Bismarck can be played without CE, but FDG is simply impossible without it. Same for GK. Big BB which eats massive damage from anything and gets spotted from the moon.

 

I think if you would play it with standard BB build it would make more sense IMO.

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It depends on the ship:

At tiers 5-6, I don't find the base secondary range good enough to warrant a secondary build (though AFT is viable on Bayern in order to improve  the AA performance).

At tier 7, the torpedoes serve the same purpose (less range but higher damage potential) so again, no AFT.

At tier 8, a full secondary build is very viable but it's more situational than a survivability focused build. It is extremely fun though :cap_rambo:.

At tiers 9-10, the usual engagement range and the general size of the ships make secondary builds rather pointless and performance-detrimental. Here, Fire Prevention and Concealment Expert are by far the most important skills since you're a big target. AFT could be chosen for AA purposes but it's not like the AA is all that good to begin with.

 

Generally, German battleships are very durable and both CE and FE enhances their performance. There's also the issue with AP secondaries which makes AFT rather useless on certain tiers (for the secondary guns, that is).

Personally, I would say that only Bismarck and Tirpitz should be given secondary gun improvements.

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19 minutes ago, Kartoffelmos said:

It depends on the ship:

At tiers 5-6, I don't find the base secondary range good enough to warrant a secondary build (though AFT is viable on Bayern in order to improve  the AA performance).

At tier 7, the torpedoes serve the same purpose (less range but higher damage potential) so again, no AFT.

At tier 8, a full secondary build is very viable but it's more situational than a survivability focused build. It is extremely fun though :cap_rambo:.

At tiers 9-10, the usual engagement range and the general size of the ships make secondary builds rather pointless and performance-detrimental. Here, Fire Prevention and Concealment Expert are by far the most important skills since you're a big target. AFT could be chosen for AA purposes but it's not like the AA is all that good to begin with.

 

Generally, German battleships are very durable and both CE and FE enhances their performance. There's also the issue with AP secondaries which makes AFT rather useless on certain tiers (for the secondary guns, that is).

Personally, I would say that only Bismarck and Tirpitz should be given secondary gun improvements.

Very much this. T7 to T8 are the only tiers where ships and typical engagement distances can make a secondaries build shine. On T9 and T10 AFT may help with AA, but only if the enemy CV is not T10 too.

 

Alternatively you can take 3x 4-point skills (CE, AFT and FP), although you will have to sacrifice other skills if you do. I usually love to combine secondary capability, AA and FP at the cost of a little survivability.

 

1: Priority Target, Expert Loader

2: Expert Marksman or Adrenaline Rush (depending on your turret speed; Germans tend to be rather fast anyway)

3: Basic Firing Training

4: Fire Prevention, Advanced Firing Training, Concealment Expert

 

The downside is that if you take 3x 4-point skills you probably will be missing skills like Superintendant or Basics of Survivability.

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1 hour ago, Procrastes said:

Second thoughts about my German secondaries

 

When I first leveled up my German Grossadmiral, whom I put in charge of all my favourite battleships, there was little doubt as to which two level 4 skills I would train him in. I took Concealment Expert as the first one, and Advanced Firing Training as the second. Having that overbearing range on those glorious secondary guns was just too tempting, and the boost to my AA range was a nice bonus.

 

I've stuck it out with this skill choice for the longest time. It's still fun lighting up everything that dares to even think about coming close enough to torp rush me, and having the edge in secondary gun range is always very useful in a brawl. But lately, I've begun to seriously consider switching Advanced Firing Training for Fire Prevention. I don't mind a barbecue party now and then, but sometimes - just sometimes - always being on fire starts getting on my nerves. In any other battleship than a German one, the choice would be pretty easy - I'd go for Fire Prevention any day - but those wonderful secondaries are such a big part of what it means to be a German battleship!

 

So I'm putting the question to you, fellow forumites: What are your thoughts on this matter? What's your advice?

 

Thanks in advance! :Smile_honoring:

simple question back: Manual Secondaries or not? If yes, take AFT - either go full secondary build or dont bother at all. If not, AFT doesnt actually do all that much - at those ranges, your secondaries aren't going to be hitting squat, and although the AA boost is nice, Fire Prevention will help your survival a LOOOOOOOT more.

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4 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

simple question back: Manual Secondaries or not? If yes, take AFT - either go full secondary build or dont bother at all. If not, AFT doesnt actually do all that much - at those ranges, your secondaries aren't going to be hitting squat, and although the AA boost is nice, Fire Prevention will help your survival a LOOOOOOOT more.

I don't have manual secondaries. I can see how they can be good for someone who is skilled at multitasking, but me, I'm happy to leave the secondaries to the AI.

So I guess I will try out the Fire Prevention skill and see what happens... thanks for the tip!

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30 minutes ago, Ubertron_X said:

Very much this. T7 to T8 are the only tiers where ships and typical engagement distances can make a secondaries build shine. On T9 and T10 AFT may help with AA, but only if the enemy CV is not T10 too.

 

Alternatively you can take 3x 4-point skills (CE, AFT and FP), although you will have to sacrifice other skills if you do. I usually love to combine secondary capability, AA and FP at the cost of a little survivability.

 

1: Priority Target, Expert Loader

2: Expert Marksman or Adrenaline Rush (depending on your turret speed; Germans tend to be rather fast anyway)

3: Basic Firing Training

4: Fire Prevention, Advanced Firing Training, Concealment Expert

 

The downside is that if you take 3x 4-point skills you probably will be missing skills like Superintendant or Basics of Survivability.

This seems like an good skill combination, thanks! 

I have the Direction Center For Catapult Aircraft skill instead of Expert Loader, though, since I like having an extra fighter up and about! 

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Why not skip concealment? Let the enemy know you're coming :cap_rambo:

 

yea I checked. Manual sec, fire prevention and AFT. Concealment is skippable..

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Just now, loppantorkel said:

Why not skip concealment? Let the enemy know you're coming :cap_rambo:

I tend to do that anyway, but shooting (and usually missing by a country mile) as soon as anything bigger than a destroyer floats into range...:Smile_teethhappy:

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4 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

I tend to do that anyway, but shooting (and usually missing by a country mile) as soon as anything bigger than a destroyer floats into range...:Smile_teethhappy:

So.. how often in a battle do you make use of those four skill points to concealment? Could pick IFHE instead of manual sec or concealment to increase the sec damage even more.

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2 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Why not skip concealment? Let the enemy know you're coming :cap_rambo:

 

yea I checked. Manual sec, fire prevention and AFT. Concealment is skippable..

Though CE is by no means a necessary captain skill for BB's in my opinion the absence of this skill vastly increases the player skill requirement for correct map and battle reading and subsequent movement / route planning else your survivability may severely drop. Thus my recommendation will always be to only skip CE if you already are a veteran player and you know what you are doing.

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Just now, loppantorkel said:

So.. how often in a battle do you make use of those four skill points to concealment? Could pick IFHE instead of manual sec or concealment to increase the sec damage even more.

True!

But the extra concealment is good for legging it making a tactical withdrawal when the damage starts mounting up. It has saved my bacon more times than I care to admit.

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1 minute ago, Procrastes said:

I tend to do that anyway, but shooting (and usually missing by a country mile) as soon as anything bigger than a destroyer floats into range...:Smile_teethhappy:

 

Unfurtunately, its not only easier to play with CE, but you will get better results too. Constantly being detected as a BB is pretty bad, even worse is staying 15+ km (FDGs concealment without CE) to the CLOSEST target, which means you would be ~20km away from enemy BBs/Cruiser all the time. German Guns are just too bad for that stunt.

If you are able to go closer so you can get undetected if needed is much better. Also since you are closer, you can put pressure on a Cap when the enemy knows you are there, even when they dont see you all the time. And when you are close by you can react to the situation much faster since you dont have to move an additional 2-4 kms to get to the same spot you could be if you would have used CE.

 

Imo CE is a must have skill on basicly any ship. Some midtier BBs can do without tho.

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3 minutes ago, Ubertron_X said:

Though CE is by no means a necessary captain skill for BB's in my opinion the absence of this skill vastly increases the player skill requirement for correct map and battle reading and subsequent movement / route planning else your survivability may severely drop. Thus my recommendation will always be to only skip CE if you already are a veteran player and you know what you are doing.

...quite so. Concealment Expert it is, then. :cap_old:

And also, I have put my Grossadmiral in command of my Graf Spee and my Prinz Eugen, as well. Without Concealment Expertise, the survival rate for those ships wouldn't just drop - it would plummet.

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6 minutes ago, Ubertron_X said:

Though CE is by no means a necessary captain skill for BB's in my opinion the absence of this skill vastly increases the player skill requirement for correct map and battle reading and subsequent movement / route planning else your survivability may severely drop. Thus my recommendation will always be to only skip CE if you already are a veteran player and you know what you are doing.

while that's completely true, in my opinion the best players also get the most out of CE - they, or we if i may be so bold, have the experience and map awareness to really ride that detection circle, spot openings and get into the really deadly positions that would sometimes be off limits with worse concealment. So most players will want CE because it helps them survive so much - top players want it because it makes them so much deadlier.

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32 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

simple question back: Manual Secondaries or not? If yes, take AFT - either go full secondary build or dont bother at all. If not, AFT doesnt actually do all that much - at those ranges, your secondaries aren't going to be hitting squat, and although the AA boost is nice, Fire Prevention will help your survival a LOOOOOOOT more.

This. But feel free to switch out BFT for survivability skills if going for secondaries.

 

Also, I'd go with AFT and Manual Secondaries. It gives you something. A tank build FdG is among the most unfun BB experiences I have every known. If I wanted to just tank and abuse the blinking in and out, I'd much rather play a different BB line, like Izumo with new 57 mm center deck and a much better gun armament for mid to long range. With secondary build, there at least is something fun and the secondaries have better angles than half your main battery. Best use islands and other obstacles to reduce your visibility during the approach.

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Dead ships dont shoot if you want a sec brawler you forgo ce since you will be spotted anyway when you start brawling i run PM DCCA AR BFT MCFSA AFT and FP without it in this meta you are burned down before you even get into sec range

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I have very few ships with Man Sec - Bismarck is one of them as I do want this ship to be different - as I mostly play US BBs otherwise hightier I want something different and other gaming experience - at lower tier I try also to have CE on most BBs but some I have ignored - there are too many CVs and DDs etc on those smaller maps But AFT I think is rather useful on these Cv infested areas and also because the combination AA bubble/Man surface bubble - have not calculated that too much , but as I run the fire flag (duration) on some and the increaed healing flag on some it is not that often you have 3 fires so I prefer other perks, it is to expensive at 4 points , it is certainly so that I do not play optimum in all ships but decent enough. On lower tiers it is a waste Manual so we will see what I will take on my König when that ship reaches 19 ( are on 17 now) but an alternative can be BoS or /HA/JOT combinations. It depends on the overall points budget.

 

But i want different set ups for the lines, I have all lines so I try to mix a little in my battleships. 

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On my Bismark I've changed from AFT to fire prevention. The issue I've run into is the secondaries are to inaccurate to hit DDs at that range, cruisers wont allow you to get that close even with the extended range, and the shells seem to hit the armored parts of other battleships to often at that range.

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Just now, JimmyThePirate said:

and the shells seem to hit the armored parts of other battleships to often at that range.

 

Thats actually intentional :cap_fainting:

Probably made that so Cruisers are once again the class to be buttfucked the most by secondaries. Secondaries aim at the belt, aka citadel. Only class which has a citadel and can get penetrated by AP secondaries? Cruisers... go figure :cap_old:

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6 minutes ago, JimmyThePirate said:

On my Bismark I've changed from AFT to fire prevention. The issue I've run into is the secondaries are to inaccurate to hit DDs at that range, cruisers wont allow you to get that close even with the extended range, and the shells seem to hit the armored parts of other battleships to often at that range.

The 10.5 cm guns cannot even pen same tier DDs. The 15 cm guns will pen any softer upper belt like on Monarch, Amagi, Richelieu, etc. Both can start fires though, which I consider the main draw of the secondaries. Also why French secondaries are stronger than German ones. Exception is secondaries that actually do raw damage, like Kurfürst and Gneisenau (also Massachusetts are more for doing raw damage on lighter ships than for setting fires). Obviously though, German BBs are the most resistant platforms. If it weren't for that, I'd value Izumo's secondaries as more valuable than FdGs.

4 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Thats actually intentional :cap_fainting:

Probably made that so Cruisers are once again the class to be buttfucked the most by secondaries. Secondaries aim at the belt, aka citadel. Only class which has a citadel and can get penetrated by AP secondaries? Cruisers... go figure :cap_old:

Tbf, it's a side-effect of the secondaries aiming at centre of mass, which would be the logical way to code it. Fun fact, bots use the same aiming, thus they are not going to ever intentionally switch target to sections that might reap more damage. If the bounce, they might switch to HE, but for example bot RN cruisers would just shoot BB bow forever, even if they bounce, instead of trying to go for superstructure pens.

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