Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
Procrastes

Haida v. Gadjah Mada - who will win?

Haida vs. Gadjah Mada - who will win?  

41 members have voted

  1. 1. In a one-on-one battle between a Haida and a Gadjah Mada, and player skill and all other things being equal - who would win?

    • The Haida would win!
    • The Gadjah Mada would win!
    • It would be a draw!

36 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Beta Tester
1,979 posts
2,159 battles

A Haida and a Gadjah Mada walk into a bar together...

 

I recently posted a poll in the 'Destroyer' subforum, about which ship would win in a battle between a Z-39 and a Haida. But while that thread pretty quickly started leaning towards the Haida being the stronger ship in a duel, a much more interesting discussion popped up, namely what would happen in a battle between a Haida and a Gadjah Mada. I think most of us would agree that those two ships are much more evenly matched.

 

I started off betting on the Gadjah Mada, mostly due to my personal experience of the ship - she's just crazy strong in any DD vs. DD fight. But fellow forumite Riselotte argued long and well for the Haida clearly being the strongest of the two ships in duel between them. Our discussion went something like this:

 

  • Me: The Gadjah Mada would probably win. She has a little lower HE alpha damage, but a higher fire chance, and the hydro would be less of an edge for the Haida than it would against most other destroyers, since the Gadjah Mada can't use her torpedoes against other destroyers anyway. The Gadjah Mada would just rush a smoked-up Haida. The Canadian's hydro isn't that far-ranged, so she wouldn't get off very many shots before the Pan-Asian closed to auto-spot range, and then the scores would be even.

 

  • Riselotte: The Haida ouspots the Gadjah Mada and would get the opening shots. If smoked up, she'd also be able to shave off more of the Gadjah Mada's hit points until the latter had gotten into auto-spot range. One on one, the Haida has more hitpoints and a higher dpm. Her torpedoes can hurt the Gadjah Mada, while the Gadjah Mada's torpedoes can't hurt the Haida. On top of that, the Haida has access to hydro and the more flexible Commonwealth smoke; she can just move full speed away and leave a trail of smoke behind that obscures vision, while lighting up the Haida with her hydro. The hydro would also prevent the Gadjah Mada from using her own smoke against the Haida. As for the higher fire chance, fires on destroyers are of very limited use; 9 % over the course of 30 seconds. The Haida would wipe the floor with the Gadjah Mada.

 

  • Me: I agree that the fire-starting factor probably would not decide the outcome. The Haida loses gun dpm if she fires her torps, and the Gadjah Mada loses gun dpm while dodging them, so that would balance out (and we assume that no torpedo hits since that would instantly decide the battle). If the Canadian actually manages to move so as to keep her continous smoke cloud between them, and keep the magic distance that lets her use the hydro without revealing herself when firing her guns - then, the Pan-Asian would be toast! But if both ships could keep their enemy in sight, then the turret layout would greatly favour the Gadjah Mada in this scenario. She'd have four guns firing straight in the enemy's direction, to the Haida's two.

 

  • Riselotte: As long as the Haida can keep the smoke in between, the Gadjah Mada's turret layout matters not. And if it fails, the Haida can just stop the pretense and get all guns firing again, as it out-dpms the Gadjah Mada. Given that the Gadjah Mada has less hp to start with, lost hp on the approach and would lose hp in the chase, it has a grave disadvantage already - and the chased party has a way easier time to land hits. The sole thing the Gadjah Mada can try to pull off, is a ram, to effect a draw.

 

  • Me: You're right, the Haida would win. I lost the argument once I had to concede that the higher fire chance - the only gunboat stat where the Gadjah Mada trumps the Haida - would not decide the outcome.

- - -

 

So as you can see, I had to concede the argument to Riselotte! But there are as many opinions as there are players on this forum, and maybe the last word on this matter is yet to be said. So in the hopes of sparking another fun debate, I now post another "Deathmatch poll" - and this time I thought it would be better placed here on the gameplay forum, since it concerns questions that are not pertinent solely to destroyer mechanics.

 

I start by placing my own vote, and I still remain convinced as above. But maybe someone will manage to change my mind again...?

:Smile_Default:

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POI--]
Players
3,890 posts
5,016 battles

I stand by my statement that provided equal skill, full hp at start 1v1, ro rng random detonation, Haida wins pretty easily.

 

Obviously that's a situation you rarely see, but Haida is just the overall better anti-DD DD. Gadjah Mada is the better all-rounder, as it has a better torpedo armament to deal with larger threats, but against DDs, the torps count for nothing.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,979 posts
2,159 battles
11 minutes ago, ABED1984 said:

Gadjah ofc! .. With her deadly 10 DW torps she can out perform Haida.

But the Gadjah Mada's deepwater torpedoes can't hit the Haida. So they wouldn't help at all in a battle between them.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,979 posts
2,159 battles
1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

This is not a 1v1 game...

I am aware of that; this is a hypothetical situation. Think of it as a tribute to the good, old 'What if..' genre! :Smile_Default:

 

50 minutes ago, stinkmorchel said:

the Haida‘s secondaries will save the day :cap_tea:

I'm training myself to remember to turn them on, once I'm in a gun fight. I habitually sail with my AA suit silenced in any destroyer, but this unfortunately also turns off the secondary gun of the Haida. It would be hilarious to sink someone with that, and since it has a decent chance of starting a fire, it's not totally unthinkable, either.

 

Come to think of it, I must train myself to check my post battle stats for secondary battery hits while in the Haida, as well!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
14,695 posts
10,879 battles
9 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

I am aware of that; this is a hypothetical situation. Think of it as a tribute to the good, old 'What if..' genre! :Smile_Default:

That makes it pointless...

  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SICK]
Weekend Tester
4,684 posts
9,234 battles

By virtue of having more HP and more alpha, I'd say that the Haida has the better chance.

However the Gadget Majong has better forward firing angles, so if they meet head on, the GM will present a smaller profile and might just win out with some help from the RNG fairy.
It's a double edged sword however, as the Haida has the option to retreat with all guns firing, whereas the GM effectively loses its front turret.

So my conclusion is that the Haida has the overall significant advantage, however the duel would start in the GM's favor should they meet head on.
An advantage that could make the Haida player make the mistake of not pressing on and either winning with simply superior DPM and HP, or forcing the GM to retreat, making it lose 33% of its firepower.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
3,341 posts
5,806 battles
10 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

That makes it pointless...

 

Then let them discuss it? Its not like its going to hurt or impact you in any way, or is it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POI--]
Players
3,890 posts
5,016 battles
7 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

By virtue of having more HP and more alpha, I'd say that the Haida has the better chance.

However the Gadget Majong has better forward firing angles, so if they meet head on, the GM will present a smaller profile and might just win out with some help from the RNG fairy.
It's a double edged sword however, as the Haida has the option to retreat with all guns firing, whereas the GM effectively loses its front turret.

So my conclusion is that the Haida has the overall significant advantage, however the duel would start in the GM's favor should they meet head on.
An advantage that could make the Haida player make the mistake of not pressing on and either winning with simply superior DPM and HP, or forcing the GM to retreat, making it lose 33% of its firepower.

Well, Gadjah Mada going just bow-in presents its own issue, as you don't want to get close to Haida. Unlike GM, Haida can torp and has the hydro/smoke combo. Yes, short range on hydro, but still a hydro and a moving(!) smoke, so the few shots missed in the head on part will likely be made up when GM has to turn or gets confronted with Haida's consumables/torp threat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[DSW]
Players
3,790 posts
7,737 battles
20 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Then let them discuss it? Its not like its going to hurt or impact you in any way, or is it?

judging by its comments, just about any thread on these forums seems to hurt or impact Pete in some indiscernible way... at least he leaves a snarky, useless one-liner in most of them... :Smile_teethhappy:

  • Cool 2
  • Funny 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SICK]
Weekend Tester
4,684 posts
9,234 battles
24 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Well, Gadjah Mada going just bow-in presents its own issue, as you don't want to get close to Haida. Unlike GM, Haida can torp and has the hydro/smoke combo. Yes, short range on hydro, but still a hydro and a moving(!) smoke, so the few shots missed in the head on part will likely be made up when GM has to turn or gets confronted with Haida's consumables/torp threat.

 

That's the crux of the issue right there.
If the Haida player doesn't power through the initial (and potential, given the nature of RNG) disadvantage but rather panicks and tries to retreat or fire torps, his actual advantage starts crumbling.
If the Haida player understands that forcing a retreat, getting in a knife fight, or just prolonging the duel is in his favor, he's more likely to win.

 

 

It's all about handling the initial contact.
Haida has the significant advantage, but can quickly lose it if the player isn't ready to lose a bit more HP than the GM in the opening salvoes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
14,695 posts
10,879 battles
26 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Then let them discuss it? Its not like its going to hurt or impact you in any way, or is it?

I am not closing this thread....this time  :fish_palm:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POI--]
Players
3,890 posts
5,016 battles
13 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

That's the crux of the issue right there.
If the Haida player doesn't power through the initial (and potential, given the nature of RNG) disadvantage but rather panicks and tries to retreat or fire torps, his actual advantage starts crumbling.
If the Haida player understands that forcing a retreat, getting in a knife fight, or just prolonging the duel is in his favor, he's more likely to win.

 

 

It's all about handling the initial contact.
Haida has the significant advantage, but can quickly lose it if the player isn't ready to lose a bit more HP than the GM in the opening salvoes.

Yeah, but assuming optimal play, the Haida holds pretty much all the advantages. Realistically, Gadjah Mada isn't hopeless, given how people play, but should be very careful about taking such fights. In a real random battle, unless I got strong support, I'd likely just disengage as soon asap, possibly sacrificing one of the many PA smokes in the process.

 

And if we assume mistakes being made, the whole scenario kinda gets meaningless to discuss. As I see it, the point is, purely based on ship, which is the stronger ship for this occasion. If we factor in player skill beyond just assuming optimal play, its basically just nuances in stupidity and misplay that seperate a Gadjah Mada killing a Haida and an Akatsuki killing either (bait into kite, abuse IJN ballistics, yadda yadda...)

 

One thing I wonder though, that I find a bit more interesting (and potentially concerning) is how for example upcoming Jervis would shape up. As a GM with (worse) normal torps, worse concealment and hydro instead of engine boost, is the ship actually in a good spot or not?

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[RL7S]
Players
131 posts
1,974 battles

Gadjah Mada is a beast of a gunboat, I will cheerfully jump almost any other DD within it’s MM spread up to and including the Fletcher or Kidd.

 

Those guns and gun arcs are pretty lethal, just got to know when to break contact and be happy with half killing a higher tier DD. Can always come back to finish the job.

 

Probably wouldn’t try to ambush an Akizuki or Kitakaze but anything else is fair game.

 

If someone tried that smoke/hydro combo I’d just slam on the brakes and pop my own smoke if still spotted, then reengage as soon as their smoke goes down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POI--]
Players
3,890 posts
5,016 battles
2 hours ago, Alex_Connor said:

Probably wouldn’t try to ambush an Akizuki or Kitakaze but anything else is fair game.

laughs in Harekaze

 

No, but seriously. Gadjah Mada might be good and uptiers far easier than most T7 DDs, but pretty much most T8 and T9 DDs are just straight up better and if you run into a higher tier hydro, you can hardly turn around before being caught up in it, nor do they have worse concealment than you.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,379 posts
15,503 battles

GM is the highest performing silver ship in the game, it'll get nerfed eventually.

 

Until then those 360 forward arcs are soooooooo strong, GM usability wins out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
14,695 posts
10,879 battles
36 minutes ago, FishDogFoodShack said:

 

You must be the coolest guy to talk to at parties.

Yeah, I always start conversations like "apples vs oranges, who would win?",.... or not......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POI--]
Players
3,890 posts
5,016 battles
42 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Yeah, I always start conversations like "apples vs oranges, who would win?",.... or not......

Apples are slightly higher in calories, but oranges got a significant edge in vitamin C and also are better in most other aspects, so clearly oranges outclass apples.

  • Funny 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[UNICS]
Players
2,882 posts
12,099 battles

Since Gadjah clearly is OP as a gunboat and WG never would release an unnerfable OP premium ship, logic tells us that Gadjah obviously would win. You're welcome :cap_tea:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POI--]
Players
3,890 posts
5,016 battles
2 minutes ago, Sargento_YO said:

I think that eventually what really matters it's the player´s precision when shooting at the enemy.

Honestly, there is a point to "player skill decides battles", but in a straight up ship comparison, there is no real point to it. Or next time when someone yolos their Asashio into a Chapayev, I guess if only they had been a better shot, they could've won that engagement easily...

 

Ship vs ship comparisons like these aren't exactly useless, for they at least provide a yardstick to measure how well certain ships fare against each other and you can then factor in the circumstances of the situation. But it helps people to know whether they are inherently going to be at a disadvantage or not.

4 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Since Gadjah clearly is OP as a gunboat and WG never would release an unnerfable OP premium ship, logic tells us that Gadjah obviously would win. You're welcome :cap_tea:

What's OP isn't the gun setup, but the entire package. That the multipurpose DD gets wrecked by the specialist doesn't make that one OP. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×