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Warhawk1984

Ship roles and exp rebalance

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What are the roles of each class?

 

for me it goes a little something like this

 

Destroyer:

 

Primary role: using there high concealment to get close to enemy to spot them for the big guns

Secondary role: contesting cap (this dont mean sail in and smoke up a smoked up dd can not fulfill its primary role in smoke) more of spot things entering the cap for said big guns 

Tertiary: fire support/DD hunter/harass

 

Personally i feel Destroyers Exp should be balanced around spotting and damage caused by spotting as there main exp generator followed by capping then damage don't get me wrong if you do 100k damage you should be rewarded however if you cause 200k damage by spotting then you should be rewarded more.

overall i would say a lot of dd's are unaware that there job is to spot more so than cap after all you kill there ships you can cap without risk

 

Light Cruiser:(UK is slightly different due to there no he):

 

Primary role: engage dd's assist friendly dd's light fires causing dot damage (UK smokers smoke up and hit cruisers and bb's at 11km or less a British cruiser can go through bb armor with ease) 

Secondary role: light cruisers can get there concealment quite low good at surprising enemy's especially with a smoke trail left by a dd  so assisting in capping and spotting makes sence

Tertiary: Fleet support (radar,smoke DefAA)

 

exp seams okay as is i might argue for more of a exp reward for cruisers spotting

 

Heavy Cruiser:

 

Primary: killing light cruisers/destroyers

Secondary: Fire support on battleships 

Tertiary: Fleet support (radar,smoke DefAA)

 

Battleships:

 

Primary: killing other battleships

Secondary:Tanking

Tertiary: killing Cruisers

 

Battleships are an enigma from a game play standpoint, they have most armor, most hp and a repair so they make perfect sense to use to tank and push forward with the cruisers following in behind.

however the fact they have the longest firing range it in fact encourages players to sit back as far as possible (which is in fact how they were designed in real life), personally  in game i think this is a bad thing it leaves small armor less ships to tank while the bb's just sit miles back shouting abuse as to why the cv ain't helping him (news flash hes busy lighting there dd, dropping a bb and defending the poor cruisers left to tank)

 

i would reward exp for damage tanked/taken.

 

Carriers: (at the moment at least)

 

Primary: Win the skies 

Secondary: Spotting

Tertiary: killing bb's/dd's then anything else 

 

Carriers i believe should have there exp rewarded more for shooting down planes de-planing a CV is almost the equivalent of tanking it takes away a lot of potential damage.

same with spotting

however i would reduce the exp they get for damage

 

Carriers are broken as hell they are so unbalanced just from a ship to ship perspective ranger vs sapian lol never mind player skill 

 

how do you guys view the roles of each class and do you think the exp reward system should take class roles into account 

 

 

 

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I think you have a good basis of discussion.

Far too much experience is based around damage. And worse of all, since it is %hp ship damage, it encourages BB's to bully the small ships rather than engaging the enemy BB's. The small ships generally can't angle against them due to overmatch mechanics. Angling against battleships can be detrimental, since it might be the difference between a penetration and an over penetration.

Not each ship within a class plays identically though, so some adjustments will need to be made for individual ships. Go cap and spot Khaba! :cap_horn:

Also some battleships play more like super cruisers and can't really tank damage for long due to soft armour and long heal cooldowns which are easily overloaded. Some cruisers can tank damage better.

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28 minutes ago, Armorin said:

I think you have a good basis of discussion.

Far too much experience is based around damage. And worse of all, since it is %hp ship damage, it encourages BB's to bully the small ships rather than engaging the enemy BB's. The small ships generally can't angle against them due to overmatch mechanics. Angling against battleships can be detrimental, since it might be the difference between a penetration and an over penetration.

Not each ship within a class plays identically though, so some adjustments will need to be made for individual ships. Go cap and spot Khaba! :cap_horn:

Also some battleships play more like super cruisers and can't really tank damage for long due to soft armour and long heal cooldowns which are easily overloaded. Some cruisers can tank damage better.

while that is true i think we need to establish the main roles per class obviously different ships handle slightly differently a Worcester plays different to a Minotaur despite them both being classed as light cruisers.

 

we do need to get away from damage based exp and more towards exp based on there role.

 

its ridicules that a fiji can land 100+ hits end up doing twice as much damage than the hp of there ship but gets out scored on exp by a battleship that landed 1 lucky salvo and did 50k damage in a single hit.

 

or a DD randomly launching and landing a torp through smoke and a little luck

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1 hour ago, Warhawk1984 said:

Primary role: using there high concealment to get close to enemy to spot them for the big guns

Secondary role: contesting cap (this dont mean sail in and smoke up a smoked up dd can not fulfill its primary role in smoke) more of spot things entering the cap for said big guns 

Tertiary: fire support/DD hunter/harass

Good job listing important roles, bad job creating an arbitrary order that's just wrong in most situations. Also, you somehow managed to completely omit torping, unless you're trying to pass it off as "fire support"...

 

1 hour ago, Warhawk1984 said:

Personally i feel Destroyers Exp should be balanced around spotting and damage caused by spotting as there main exp generator followed by capping then damage don't get me wrong if you do 100k damage you should be rewarded however if you cause 200k damage by spotting then you should be rewarded more.

Spotting damage as it works in WoWs is useless and non-representative of anything. It works like this:

Shima: spots, say, a Zao

Zao: realizes she's spotted. Having nothing to lose, opens fire on a Yamato in the distance

Yamato: opens fire on Zao

Zao: gets hit by Yamato but the damage doesn't count for Shima's spotting damage because Yamato clearly sees the Zao (since the latter is shooting back all the time).

Getting spotting damage is more often than not as much about luck as actually spotting things.

 

2 hours ago, Warhawk1984 said:

overall i would say a lot of dd's are unaware that there job is to spot more so than cap after all you kill there ships you can cap without risk

This is hilarious. If anything, DDs often tend to pay too little attention to caps...

 

2 hours ago, Warhawk1984 said:

Primary role: engage dd's assist friendly dd's light fires causing dot damage (UK smokers smoke up and hit cruisers and bb's at 11km or less a British cruiser can go through bb armor with ease) 

Secondary role: light cruisers can get there concealment quite low good at surprising enemy's especially with a smoke trail left by a dd  so assisting in capping and spotting makes sence

Tertiary: Fleet support (radar,smoke DefAA)

Listing Radar as the least important for ships that have it?... :Smile_sceptic:

 

2 hours ago, Warhawk1984 said:

Battleships:

 

Primary: killing other battleships

Secondary:Tanking

Tertiary: killing Cruisers

Lolnope. Again, arbitrary order that makes no sense. Any BB that can choose between a cruiser that presents a decent target and a BB that does the same should (unless there is some special situation) focus on the cruiser. A single good salvo from a BB can kill a cruiser or force her to disengage - that's an instant advantage to the team. This is also one of the reason why BB tanking doesn't work nearly as well as advertised. Unless a BB overextends (not a good thing to do), she's usually the least attractive target to shoot at. I'm not saying there is no BB tanking whatsoever but even in a well played BB there's much less of that than you'd expect - unless the enemies are stupid.

 

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11 hours ago, eliastion said:

Good job listing important roles, bad job creating an arbitrary order that's just wrong in most situations. Also, you somehow managed to completely omit torping, unless you're trying to pass it off as "fire support"...

 

Spotting damage as it works in WoWs is useless and non-representative of anything. It works like this:

Shima: spots, say, a Zao

Zao: realizes she's spotted. Having nothing to lose, opens fire on a Yamato in the distance

Yamato: opens fire on Zao

Zao: gets hit by Yamato but the damage doesn't count for Shima's spotting damage because Yamato clearly sees the Zao (since the latter is shooting back all the time).

Getting spotting damage is more often than not as much about luck as actually spotting things.

 

This is hilarious. If anything, DDs often tend to pay too little attention to caps...

 

Listing Radar as the least important for ships that have it?... :Smile_sceptic:

 

Lolnope. Again, arbitrary order that makes no sense. Any BB that can choose between a cruiser that presents a decent target and a BB that does the same should (unless there is some special situation) focus on the cruiser. A single good salvo from a BB can kill a cruiser or force her to disengage - that's an instant advantage to the team. This is also one of the reason why BB tanking doesn't work nearly as well as advertised. Unless a BB overextends (not a good thing to do), she's usually the least attractive target to shoot at. I'm not saying there is no BB tanking whatsoever but even in a well played BB there's much less of that than you'd expect - unless the enemies are stupid.

 

thats the whole point of this thread how other people see the roles of there class /ship

 

torping i would label under harass yes its nice to torp ships in a dd but that is not your main role the min duty of any decent dd in my opinion is to assist in killing by spotting you can stealth torp to your hearts content, how many times you been in a RN cruiser smoked up in a perfect position loads of juicy targets to hit when the dd decides he needs to smoke up as well despite not being spotted them all them juicy targets disappear

 

as for radar yes it is very important all 2/3 charges of it you get per match, playing your class as a dd support/hunter will naturally put you in a position to use radar you cant play a class purely around a timed consumable even smoke users cant do that the whole game

 

you maybe right with battleships and the insta delete but the point is why is the cruiser forced to effectively tank when the bb has twice as much hp much thicker armor and a repair if anything give the cruisers the repair instead of the bb if thats the way you want it 

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Ye i would agree on most of yours, ill list them and where i disagree:

 

-DDs seem fine, spotting is imo the most crucial part to help your team. If we play 3-man div and one takes DD sometimes all he does is spot and smoke, because he doesnt need to do anything else.

But Torps also work as an area denial tool or how could i put this differently, move away from that area-tool :cap_haloween:

 

- CLs

Yes i would agree thats what they should do. Obviously WG thinks they should crap on everything. Looking at Worcester here...

 

- CAs

Id go for "Killing Cruisers" as a whole, not only CLs. Also ships with Radar fulfill a different role, they hunt/spot DDs and block caps.

And the DD/BB fighting stuff depends on the CA. While Atago/Takao is able to torp DDs from stealth, a Hindenburg is bad at hunting DDs. He is better going 1v1 against a BB.

 

- BBs

Here i disagree.

The major role for BBs is area denial. Whether they tank or deal damage doing that doesnt matter. They are there so they keep Cruisers at bay. Which enables your own Cruisers to get closer.

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7 hours ago, Warhawk1984 said:

Destroyer:

.....

overall i would say a lot of dd's are unaware that there job is to spot more so than cap after all you kill there ships you can cap without risk

 Good points for most classes.

 

Spotting for DDs isn't rewarded in any way proportionate to damage/capping, so raising awareness is unlikely to cause a different behaviour.

Nobody likes losing money afterall.

 

As for BBs, their main role is area denial (making sure CAs dont go any closer)

 

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All we need is to implement spotting damage. If a dd spots a target, and a bb does 10k damage to it, then the dd should get xp for 5k of that damage, and the bb should xp for the other 5k. Aka spotting a target gives you half of the spotting damage as xp, and takes away that half from the damage dealer. 

 

Decourages damage farming, encourages spotting. 

 

No need for different xp equations for different ships, as they should all fall into their roles based on their strengths. 

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17 minutes ago, thiextar said:

Aka spotting a target gives you half of the spotting damage as xp, and takes away that half from the damage dealer. 

Decourages damage farming, encourages spotting. 

No need for different xp equations for different ships, as they should all fall into their roles based on their strengths. 

I like the idea, even though I almost never play DD.

Also, raise the rewards for potential damage to encourage BBs who bring their BigButt closer to the action.

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6 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

Ye i would agree on most of yours, ill list them and where i disagree:

 

-DDs seem fine, spotting is imo the most crucial part to help your team. If we play 3-man div and one takes DD sometimes all he does is spot and smoke, because he doesnt need to do anything else.

But Torps also work as an area denial tool or how could i put this differently, move away from that area-tool :cap_haloween:

 

- CLs

Yes i would agree thats what they should do. Obviously WG thinks they should crap on everything. Looking at Worcester here...

 

- CAs

Id go for "Killing Cruisers" as a whole, not only CLs. Also ships with Radar fulfill a different role, they hunt/spot DDs and block caps.

And the DD/BB fighting stuff depends on the CA. While Atago/Takao is able to torp DDs from stealth, a Hindenburg is bad at hunting DDs. He is better going 1v1 against a BB.

 

- BBs

Here i disagree.

The major role for BBs is area denial. Whether they tank or deal damage doing that doesnt matter. They are there so they keep Cruisers at bay. Which enables your own Cruisers to get closer.

you may be right with the bb, like i said in a lot of ways they appear to be an enigma from a game play perspective, area of denial may be there best option.

 

though i would still argue sitting 23km away from the nearest red and having a shell flight time of 11+ seconds is no way to play anything the slightest stroke of the wasd keys will make your BB practically worthless.

 

from what i can gather a simple change to give ships spotting damage as half the exp seams the simplest change, any ship that lights themselves up by firing i would say the exp for spotting should go to the nearest ship as they will still be the one to spot them first except when they dont lave line of sight

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after reading the comments here so far how does this proposal sound

 

all ships 50 exp per ship spotted, 100% damage exp for damaging targets they are spotting. 

for ships they are not spotting but still damaging a exp split 70-30 in favor of the damage dealer so spotter gets 30% of the exp the damage dealer would get 70% this because if 3 bb's are shooting at the same target they could end up with next to no one but the spotter getting exp. bonus 50 exp to the ship that sinks the target.

 

the spotting is rewarded to the ship closest with line of sight (behind island no spot for you, in smoke no spot for you) to the target in the event they fire there guns and become spotted as they are closest and will see it first.

 

spotting needs to be rewarded better at expense of the damage dealer but not so much to make it not worthwhile.

 

i am sure there is a reason @MrConway and crew dont like rewarding DD's that play the team play game and just spot, played a game just now where i caused 53k damage by spotting and 4k damage lol something wrong with my dam guns i think, as well as cap and i finish stone dead bottom with 424 exp.

 

even the cruiser that got insta-deleted 2 mins in out scored me, there is like no reward at all to even spot, that needs to change

 

capping exp i feel should stay as it is.

 

50 exp per plane shot down for cv's 20 exp for planes shot down for ships

 

the rest seams perfectly fine to me.

 

 

 

 

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I disagree with the notion that a BB's primary target should always be the enemy BBs; I would suggest it should be a lot more nuanced than that, depending on team make-up.

For example, if you have a couple of stealthy torp DDs on your side, they can wreak havoc with the enemy BBs (not to mention doing their spotting and capping things), but only if the cruisers (radar ones especially) are kept at bay (ideally, sunk). I would argue that, early game, a BB should take every reasonable opportunity to blap cruisers, rather than BBs.

That, of course, assumes the BBs in question haven't run for the map borders (from where they'll struggle to hit much that's smaller than a BB).

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2 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

No.  

so what do you see a destroyer main role as? running straight to cap smoking up and doing nothing else? 

 

its a discussion on what each class's role is a arbitrary "No." tells nothing

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15 minutes ago, Warhawk1984 said:

so what do you see a destroyer main role as? running straight to cap smoking up and doing nothing else? 

 

its a discussion on what each class's role is a arbitrary "No." tells nothing

What does spotting do for a DD?  Great experience? Lots of silver? Enhanced winning chance?  The answer is no.

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6 minutes ago, Warhawk1984 said:

so what do you see a destroyer main role as?

I think it varies with class/tier; I see DDs as having a matrix of aims and capabilities, and the main role of each one is determined by the detail of that matrix.

For example, the 'classic' DD role is spot/cap, but that ignores the fact that at least some of them have pretty potent weapons that are at risk of being wasted if the perceived ship's role is too limited.

Some examples: my (filthy) Asashio is utterly wasted if you aren't trying to sink BBs with those torps, as well as making full use of stealth to spot and cap; Feltcher is wasted if it isn't trying to tear said Asashio a new one with those glorious guns (so protecting friendly BBs), and it has torps to make all sorts of enemies seriously regret their life choices; Khaba is especially notable for being a non-standard DD (it's basically a naughty cruiser). Also, where you are in terms of relative tier also plays a role in determining what you should be doing - a T8 against T6s will behave very differently to a T8 against T10s (although that's hardly unique to DDs).

 

I feel there is danger in prescribing an *exact* role to a ship purely on grounds of class (to switch games, anyone want to try and play as a classic medium tank in a Matilda?); more sensible to equip players with a range of desirable activities, and hope they have the knowledge and map awareness to pick sensible ones.

 

The rewards from the game should be tailored to reflect this though i.e. more rewards for spotting/capping.

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Just now, Culiacan_Mexico said:

What does spotting do for a DD?  Great experience? Lots of silver? Enhanced winning chance?  The answer is no.

well yes it should enhance winning chance spotting ships allow for other ships to wreck them.

 

lots of silver... no hence why the argument is spotting damage should be rewarded more

 

great experience, i have loads of fun spotting at around 7km and just stealth torping forcing them to show broadside while the bb's and cruisers lay into them

 

well i answered all your questions, its a team based game a spotter is vital

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8 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

What does spotting do for a DD?  Great experience? Lots of silver? Enhanced winning chance?  The answer is no.

 

Yes it actually does.

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1 minute ago, Warhawk1984 said:

well yes it should enhance winning chance spotting ships allow for other ships to wreck them.

The average player in World of Warships... has a below average win rate.  You want to rely on them to carry you to victory?

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2 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

I think it varies with class/tier; I see DDs as having a matrix of aims and capabilities, and the main role of each one is determined by the detail of that matrix.

For example, the 'classic' DD role is spot/cap, but that ignores the fact that at least some of them have pretty potent weapons that are at risk of being wasted if the perceived ship's role is too limited.

Some examples: my (filthy) Asashio is utterly wasted if you aren't trying to sink BBs with those torps, as well as making full use of stealth to spot and cap; Feltcher is wasted if it isn't trying to tear said Asashio a new one with those glorious guns (so protecting friendly BBs), and it has torps to make all sorts of enemies seriously regret their life choices; Khaba is especially notable for being a non-standard DD (it's basically a naughty cruiser). Also, where you are in terms of relative tier also plays a role in determining what you should be doing - a T8 against T6s will behave very differently to a T8 against T10s (although that's hardly unique to DDs).

 

I feel there is danger in prescribing an *exact* role to a ship purely on grounds of class (to switch games, anyone want to try and play as a classic medium tank in a Matilda?); more sensible to equip players with a range of desirable activities, and hope they have the knowledge and map awareness to pick sensible ones.

 

The rewards from the game should be tailored to reflect this though i.e. more rewards for spotting/capping.

you are of course right some do have very potent weapons, and i often love the knife fight but that dont take away from there other duties, hence why i described in the form of primary/secondary in all fairness it could go on for another dozen more.

 

the point is without a ship to do the spotting it can leave the whole team at a disadvantage, they got a dd spotting our cruisers/battleships while ours is in smoke lets them position there ships  before firing to minimize damage taken and maximize damage put out  

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1 minute ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

The average player in World of Warships... has a below average win rate.  You want to rely on them to carry you to victory?

maybe silent hunter is the game for you you seam to want a single player game with zero team work 

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1 minute ago, Warhawk1984 said:

maybe silent hunter is the game for you you seam to want a single player game with zero team work 

:Smile_teethhappy:

 

Since I don't agree with your view on spotting?  

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2 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

The average player in World of Warships... has a below average win rate.  You want to rely on them to carry you to victory?

this made me laugh.

 

The average player so the person at the 50% mark on skill, has a below average win rate i care more about the average players skill rather than a win rate that can be inflated in divisions

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1 minute ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

:Smile_teethhappy:

 

Since I don't agree with your view on spotting?  

not at all i asked you the question what do you see destroyers main roles being the role that defines the class and should be somewhat universal across all destroyers.

 

you have yet to answer that question instead all you do is put down half the community and player base because there not some superunicum

 

is this not a team based game?

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1 minute ago, Warhawk1984 said:

this made me laugh.

 

The average player so the person at the 50% mark on skill, has a below average win rate i care more about the average players skill rather than a win rate that can be inflated in divisions

Look at the stats provided on another thread more than half of the players have win rates below 50%.

 

Were we talking about divisions?  Divisions and solo are to separate things. 

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