Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Procrastes

Z-39 vs. Haida - who will be the winner?

Z-39 vs. Haida - who will be the winner?  

28 members have voted

  1. 1. Z-39 vs. Haida - who will be the winner?

    • The Haida will win!
      19
    • The Z-39 will win!
      6
    • It will be a draw!
      1
    • Fate will decide - the two ships are equally strong!
      2

25 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Beta Tester
1,979 posts
2,159 battles

"A Z-39 and a Haida enter a bar together..."

 

I recently clicked on an earlier thread here, with a rather similar title, in the hopes of getting to read some juicy story of a Z-39 vs. Haida fight. I figured that such a battle, between players of equal skill, might be worth watching.

 

Well, that thread - while having it's own merits - was about something else entirely. My train of thought, however, was not derailed. I am still curious. And so, in the good old spirit of the 'What If' genre, I put the question to you, my fellow forumites: In a one-on-one battle between a Z-39 and a Haida, and player skill and other relevant factors being equal, who do you think would win?

 

While it's perfectly allowed to just click on the relevant vote button, I think it would be more interesting if you also present arguments for (and against) your choice. It seems only fair that I begin myself.

 

Let's see...

 

For argument's sake, and since someone is bound to bring this factor up, I propose that we put 19-point captains in command of both ships. That level of skill on the bridge is what we all should aspire to, after all.

 

The sheer alpha striking power of the guns of the Haida has settled more than one tussle, and she can probably be counted on to use her hydro to avoid any torps - but the Z-39 does have a much greater hydro range. If she could apply that at the start, and land a few good salvoes from smoke cover before the Haida managed to close to spotting range, her 150-mm guns might settle the fight before it began.

 

It would have to be some very good 150-mm salvoes, however. And the Haida is fast - even if we assume that the Z-39 has her own hydro going from the start, she probably won't be getting more than two or possibly three 'free' shots off before the Haida gets close enough to spot her Teutonic adversary. And in a close quarters battle, I think the advantage would lie solidly with the Canadian. Her fast-firing  guns, with their superior HE striking power, would simply outmatch the guns of the Z-39, who would also lose out more on a relative scale from every missed shot. And the Haida is also the more manoeuvrable of the two ships; not to mention that she also has a quicker turret rotation if they get into a circling fight.

 

All in all, I guess my money would be on the Haida. Any takers?* :Smile_coin:

 

* No, you can't win anything other than - possibly - the argument, by voting on this poll.**

** Yes, I saw that one coming.:Smile_glasses:

 

My maybe next poll: "Are you the Haida Beaver, the Haida Moose, the Haida Wolverine or the Haida Cobra Chicken? Write and tell!" (Although I should probably clear any copyright issues with the esteemed Little White Mouse, beforehand!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,979 posts
2,159 battles
1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

The better player....

But, I specifically stated that the contest would be between players of equal skill...:Smile_amazed:

 

...then again, I take that to mean that these two great ships can perhaps truly be regarded as equals? Very good, Sir! The plethora of choices in my poll has now been expanded to account for that possibility.  :fish_book:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,844 posts
2,580 battles
55 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

But, I specifically stated that the contest would be between players of equal skill...:Smile_amazed:

 

...then again, I take that to mean that these two great ships can perhaps truly be regarded as equals? Very good, Sir! The plethora of choices in my poll has now been expanded to account for that possibility.  :fish_book:

To be fair, even if the skills were identical, then it'd come down to sheer luck/rng.

 

Think the point we're both trying to make is that these boats are very evenly matched.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,979 posts
2,159 battles
1 hour ago, lafeel said:

Think the point we're both trying to make is that these boats are very evenly matched.

So I gathered. And that, in itself, means that the Z-39 might well be quite a bit stronger than I have previously thought... interesting!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,844 posts
2,580 battles
10 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

So I gathered. And that, in itself, means that the Z-39 might well be quite a bit stronger than I have previously thought... interesting!

That and a ship is only as strong as the player driving it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[UNICS]
Players
2,882 posts
12,099 battles
10 hours ago, lafeel said:

That and a ship is only as strong as the player driving it.

one on one, some ships have the upper hand vs some others. Saying it's all player skill is a cop-out. That said, I have no idea between these ships, haven't played them, haven't met many.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POI--]
Players
3,892 posts
5,016 battles
15 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

Heida has been specifically balanced to dakka destroyers, Z-39 has been specifically balanced to torp BBs.

 

No contest.

Z-39 isn't balanced around torping BBs, it's an all-rounder. It can torp BBs, but at T7, that's pretty much the standard and Z-39 is hardly special there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,380 posts
15,503 battles
1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

Z-39 isn't balanced around torping BBs, it's an all-rounder. It can torp BBs, but at T7, that's pretty much the standard and Z-39 is hardly special there.

 

Maass is the fantastic German all-rounder (trades concealment for lots more gun firepower) I could understand a thread about Shiratsuyu vs Z-39 as they're the only comparable tier 7 destroyers atm (high concealment/torp focused/low gun power gameplay)

Heida has been uniquely designed to hunt down and crush DDs with maximum force. It's almost like asking would win, Bismark or Graff Zep? :cap_haloween:

 

What's the best premium?? Z-39 if you like torping stuff, Heida if you like beating up DDs. Personally I'd take....

Spoiler

...Gadjah Mada! It does both jobs just as well, if not better. She's the highest performing silver ship in the game for a reason. Although it'll get nerfed into the ground eventually! :cap_like:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,979 posts
2,159 battles
On ‎2018‎-‎09‎-‎11 at 2:23 PM, creamgravy said:

Personally I'd take....

  Hide contents

...Gadjah Mada! It does both jobs just as well, if not better. She's the highest performing silver ship in the game for a reason. Although it'll get nerfed into the ground eventually! :cap_like:

 

I agree. In my opinion, the Gadjah Mada is the ship that compares best with the Haida in terms of gunboat capabilities. In a straight-up knife fight between the two, and all other things being equal, I'm not sure who would win. But at a hunch... probably the Gadjah Mada. The Pan-Asian has a little lower HE alpha damage, but a lot higher fire chance, and the hydro would be less of an edge for the Haida than it would against most other destroyers, since the Gadjah Mada can't use her torpedoes against other destroyers anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POI--]
Players
3,892 posts
5,016 battles
Just now, Procrastes said:

I agree. In my opinion, the Gadjah Mada is the ship that compares best with the Haida in terms of gunboat capabilities. In a straight-up knife fight between the two, and all other things being equal, I'm not sure who would win. But at a hunch... probably the Gadjah Mada. The Pan-Asian has a little lower HE alpha damage, but a lot higher fire chance, and the hydro would be less of an edge for the Haida than it would against most other destroyers, since the Gadjah Mada can't use her torpedoes against other destroyers anyway.

But, the hydro isn't just for torps, you can spot ships in smoke. I'd give it to Haida, because:

  • torps can potentially hit Gadjah Mada
  • hydro + moving smoke give Haida much more control over engagement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,979 posts
2,159 battles
1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

But, the hydro isn't just for torps, you can spot ships in smoke. I'd give it to Haida, because:

  • torps can potentially hit Gadjah Mada
  • hydro + moving smoke give Haida much more control over engagement.

If I were in my Gadjah Mada, and met a smoked-up Haida one-on-one, I'd just floor it and rush her smoke. The Haida hydro isn't that far-ranged, so she wouldn't get off very many shots before I'd closed to auto-spot range, and then the scores would be even. There would be the risk to take a torpedo, true, but the Haida's lone quad-launcher is far from ideal to use against other destroyers, as she can't fire off those broad torpedo screens that are most useful in a DD knife-fight. And if the Haida paused her guns to launch torpedoes, and missed, then that would be to my advantage. She'd lose precious seconds of main battery use - although her seconadary gun would of course keep firing; it would be fun if that were to decide the fight! - and she'd run the risk of exposing her broadside and thus giving me a better target.

 

But you make a fair point. The outcome is far from certain. That's why it would be such a fun fight!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POI--]
Players
3,892 posts
5,016 battles
8 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

If I were in my Gadjah Mada, and met a smoked-up Haida one-on-one, I'd just floor it and rush her smoke. The Haida hydro isn't that far-ranged, so she wouldn't get off very many shots before I'd closed to auto-spot range, and then the scores would be even. There would be the risk to take a torpedo, true, but the Haida's lone quad-launcher is far from ideal to use against other destroyers, as she can't fire off those broad torpedo screens that are most useful in a DD knife-fight. And if the Haida paused her guns to launch torpedoes, and missed, then that would be to my advantage. She'd lose precious seconds of main battery use - although her seconadary gun would of course keep firing; it would be fun if that were to decide the fight! - and she'd run the risk of exposing her broadside and thus giving me a better target.

 

But you make a fair point. The outcome is far from certain. That's why it would be such a fun fight!

But until you get there, you lose hp and when you get there you need to dodge torps (likely losing dpm in the process as your attention is not on gunning) and afterwards, what advantages do you hold? Haida from the start has better HE dpm and hp. And fires on DDs are of very limited use (9% over the course of 30 seconds). also, given Haida has commonwealth smoke, it can just move full speed away once you are within the 3 km, as it will leave a trail of smoke behind that obscures vision, while it lights you up with hydro - advanced hydro strats!

 

So, if these are two folks playing their DDs to their fullest potential, Haida is just going to wipe the floor with Gadjah Mada. Can't even bet on lucky torp, only on detonation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,979 posts
2,159 battles
19 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

But until you get there, you lose hp and when you get there you need to dodge torps (likely losing dpm in the process as your attention is not on gunning) and afterwards, what advantages do you hold? Haida from the start has better HE dpm and hp. And fires on DDs are of very limited use (9% over the course of 30 seconds). also, given Haida has commonwealth smoke, it can just move full speed away once you are within the 3 km, as it will leave a trail of smoke behind that obscures vision, while it lights you up with hydro - advanced hydro strats!

 

So, if these are two folks playing their DDs to their fullest potential, Haida is just going to wipe the floor with Gadjah Mada. Can't even bet on lucky torp, only on detonation.

The Haida loses gun dpm when firing her torps, and the Gadjah Mada loses gun dpm while dodging them. So that might balance out - unless a torpedo strikes home, of course, but let's for the sake of argument assume that that it does not.

 

I agree that the fire-starting factor probably would not decide the outcome.

 

So then we have a Haida moving full speed away, puffing her commonwealth smoke and having her hydro active, with a somewhat battered Gadjah Mada in hot pursuit (I'd totally go to see the movie). Now, if the Canadian actually manages to move so as to keep her continous smoke cloud bewteen them, and keep the magic distance that lets her use the hydro without revealing herself when firing her guns - then, I agree, the Pan-Asian would be toast! But if both ships could keep their enemy in sight, then the turret layout would greatly favour the Gadjah Mada in this scenario. She'd have four guns firing straight in the enemy's direction, to the Haida's two.

 

Of course, they would probably only keep the race going until they were out of sight of their rerspective teams, and then get a room together...

 

...and maybe I oughta think twice about going to see the movie, after all! :Smile_teethhappy:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POI--]
Players
3,892 posts
5,016 battles
1 minute ago, Procrastes said:

The Haida loses gun dpm when firing her torps, and the Gadjah Mada loses gun dpm while dodging them. So that might balance out - unless a torpedo strikes home, of course, but let's for the sake of argument assume that that it does not.

 

I agree that the fire-starting factor probably would not decide the outcome.

 

So then we have a Haida moving full speed away, puffing her commonwealth smoke and having her hydro active, with a somewhat battered Gadjah Mada in hot pursuit (I'd totally go to see the movie). Now, if the Canadian actually manages to move so as to keep her continous smoke cloud bewteen them, and keep the magic distance that lets her use the hydro without revealing herself when firing her guns - then, I agree, the Pan-Asian would be toast! But if both ships could keep their enemy in sight, then the turret layout would greatly favour the Gadjah Mada in this scenario.

 

Of course, they would probably only keep the race going until they were out of sight of their rerspective teams, and then get a room together...

 

...and maybe I oughta think twice about going to see the movie, after all! :Smile_teethhappy:

As long as Haida can keep the smoke inbetween, Gadjah Mada's turret layout matters not. If it fails, Haida can also just stop the pretense and get all guns firing again, as it out-dpms the Gadjah. Given the Gadjah has less hp to start with, lost hp on the approach and would lose hp in the chase, it has a grave disadvantage already (and let's not forget that the Gadjah would need to be a complete moron to chase, as these 120 mm guns are lazy and the chased party has a way easier time to land hits). 

 

The sole thing Gadjah Mada can try to pull off is a ram, to trade, but frankly, as long as it only comes down to guns, Haida can just sit there and dakka and Gadjah Mada can take it, unable to torp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,979 posts
2,159 battles
2 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

As long as Haida can keep the smoke inbetween, Gadjah Mada's turret layout matters not. If it fails, Haida can also just stop the pretense and get all guns firing again, as it out-dpms the Gadjah. Given the Gadjah has less hp to start with, lost hp on the approach and would lose hp in the chase, it has a grave disadvantage already (and let's not forget that the Gadjah would need to be a complete moron to chase, as these 120 mm guns are lazy and the chased party has a way easier time to land hits). 

 

The sole thing Gadjah Mada can try to pull off is a ram, to trade, but frankly, as long as it only comes down to guns, Haida can just sit there and dakka and Gadjah Mada can take it, unable to torp.

You are starting to convince me. I don't think it would be such a one-sided battle as you say, but you make a good case for the Haida being the stronger ship in a duel beteen them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POI--]
Players
3,892 posts
5,016 battles
1 minute ago, Procrastes said:

You are starting to convince me. I don't think it would be such a one-sided battle as you say, but you make a good case for the Haida being the stronger ship in a duel beteen them. 

Haida has all the options, Gadjah Mada has none. Short of ramming, Haida can also just freely steam in the open and out-trade Gadjah Mada in a 1v1, given the better hp pool and better dpm. Gadjah Mada cannot smoke, because hydro. Gadjah Mada cannot torp, Haida can. All the smoke/hydro play I highlighted isn't needed to beat Gadjah Mada. It's only ways Haida can increase its advantage so it loses less hp in the process of asserting her dominance.

 

Also, in general chasing DDs that fire back isn't recommended, unless they have super-low hp or your guns have great ballistics. Even something like an Akatsuki can cost you most of your hp if it kites you.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,979 posts
2,159 battles
15 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Haida has all the options, Gadjah Mada has none. Short of ramming, Haida can also just freely steam in the open and out-trade Gadjah Mada in a 1v1, given the better hp pool and better dpm. Gadjah Mada cannot smoke, because hydro. Gadjah Mada cannot torp, Haida can. All the smoke/hydro play I highlighted isn't needed to beat Gadjah Mada. It's only ways Haida can increase its advantage so it loses less hp in the process of asserting her dominance.

 

Also, in general chasing DDs that fire back isn't recommended, unless they have super-low hp or your guns have great ballistics. Even something like an Akatsuki can cost you most of your hp if it kites you.

I give in; you are right.

 

I started with citing the higher fire chance as the one gun stat where the Gadjah Mada wins out over the Haida, and in the next post already I had to concede that the fire chance probably would not decide the outcome. Given that the Haida has the advantage in all other gunboat stats, there's where I lost the argument.

 

So I guess it's settled? In a one-on-one battle between the Haida and the Gadjah Mada, and all other things being equal, the Haida would win.

 

 

 

(And then they'd get a room.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,510 posts
10,542 battles
5 hours ago, Procrastes said:

I give in; you are right.

 

I started with citing the higher fire chance as the one gun stat where the Gadjah Mada wins out over the Haida, and in the next post already I had to concede that the fire chance probably would not decide the outcome. Given that the Haida has the advantage in all other gunboat stats, there's where I lost the argument.

 

So I guess it's settled? In a one-on-one battle between the Haida and the Gadjah Mada, and all other things being equal, the Haida would win.

 

 

 

(And then they'd get a room.)

Interesting movie, I'd buy tickets!

 

As GM vs Haida, the way to deal with hydro boats with mortars is repeated short trades (poke damage if you know the meaning).

eg. close to spot haida and kite away, rinse, repeat. If he smokes, wait out smoke outside hydro range and then repeat.

This is how you beat Z52 with Gearing :)

GM has about as bad gun angles as they come while kiting, so it would probably lose even this fight despite better arcs.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[POI--]
Players
3,892 posts
5,016 battles
4 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Interesting movie, I'd buy tickets!

 

As GM vs Haida, the way to deal with hydro boats with mortars is repeated short trades (poke damage if you know the meaning).

eg. close to spot haida and kite away, rinse, repeat. If he smokes, wait out smoke outside hydro range and then repeat.

You approach Haida, you get spotted first, Haida shoots you with better dpm, you win how? Haida has the concealment advantage (ontop of hp advantage, dpm advantage, torp advantage, hydro...) you can go run off and return, but basically, Haida can take your trades, because it can just shoot you back as you approach and reapproach for more damage.

5 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

This is how you beat Z52 with Gearing :)

Or, you know, you could also just avoid showing broadside and stay over 6 km away from the ship if you don't know whether it has hydro and smoke ready.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,510 posts
10,542 battles
5 hours ago, Riselotte said:

You approach Haida, you get spotted first, Haida shoots you with better dpm, you win how? Haida has the concealment advantage (ontop of hp advantage, dpm advantage, torp advantage, hydro...) you can go run off and return, but basically, Haida can take your trades, because it can just shoot you back as you approach and reapproach for more damage.

Or, you know, you could also just avoid showing broadside and stay over 6 km away from the ship if you don't know whether it has hydro and smoke ready.

I'm not saying GM beats Haida. it's just the best of bad ways to play against hydroboats. You omitted the last sentence where I wrote it orobably would not succeed :)

 

As to gearing that tactic only really works reliably if one has the legendary module. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SRW]
Alpha Tester
33 posts
4,606 battles

In case ov  t-39 vs Haida i would take Z-39, i really love german DDs. SOmeone mentioned thet they would take Gadjah Mada, i agree on that, absolutley best T7 DD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×