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ajb13

Why bother with the CV?

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Most players just park their CV behind a rock and don't move it again unless a DD comes looking for them, although some might move it a little to avoid air torpedo attacks. In the current RTS style mode they occasionally see their CV while looking down on it, if you want to admire her you gotta do it in the port. The new style of CV gameplay will have you focussing on just one plane squadron, giving you even less time to devote to the CV and it's needs. So the question I want to ask is why even bother putting the CV on the map?

 

Wouldn't it be better to represent the CV off map? Let the CV player set his planes entry point on the map edge on his side, and allow him to move it in the game as well (wouldn't want an enemy AA cruiser finding and camping it would we now). It does mean that in a 'kill all' game he couldn't count, so if the rest of his team was sunk he'd have to automatically lose, but with CV's mirrored in the MM no team would get an advantage from this. So what else has been going through my mind while thinking about this?

 

One concern raised about the new playstyle is the lack of fighters a CV will have to control, and how he won't be able to defend himself against CV sniping. If he isn't even on the map then this cannot happen.

They are planning on giving CV's unlimited amounts of planes, so the only way to contain their threat would be to sink them, which you couldn't do if they were off map. But this could be off set by how you balance the AA they will have to face. Even if it didn't shoot down many more planes perhaps stronger AA fire could increase the dispersion of the fired/dropped ordnance based on it's AA rating, and this would compensate for the fact the CV will be in the game until the end.

What if as a BB, CA or DD player while actively dodging torpedoes, angling to avoid shell penetrations and observing the enemy ship so you could predict where to aim your next volley you also had to worry about your supply ship somewhere to the rear. If the enemy finds it and sinks it after 2 more minutes your ship gets 'knocked' out of the game. That would be fun wouldn't it? Well that's what the new CV gameplay really is. You'll now have to actively dodge the AA bursts and control your planes all the time in a more focused way, and still worry about your 'supply ship' CV somewhere at the back. Why not balance the gameplay so all players only have to concentrate on the one ship/plane squadron they are controlling?

Most CV's are currently played as if they are airfields, well if they are off map they could be. Airfields as a new 'ship' class with land based planes, Beaufighters anyone?

 

When I play CV's I actively move around the map, even when I used to play them in randoms. Now I only play the T6's in operations and I feel you really need to keep on top of their positioning in these games. I'm quite concerned about the new CV gameplay in operations, with so much more time needing to be devoted to flying one plane squadron, and virtually no time available to take in the whole situation and move your CV accordingly.

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Good point about the operations. However:

 

24 minutes ago, ajb13 said:

Wouldn't it be better to represent the CV off map?

 

That would mean, a CV can never be eliminated during the round. He would always be the last man standing, so to say, even if you´d make a rule, that there needs to be atleast 1 other ship still alive.

 

26 minutes ago, ajb13 said:

Let the CV player set his planes entry point on the map edge on his side, and allow him to move it in the game as well

 

No other class can do this. Until you can: I vote no.

 

27 minutes ago, ajb13 said:

What if as a BB, CA or DD player while actively dodging torpedoes, angling to avoid shell penetrations and observing the enemy ship so you could predict where to aim your next volley you also had to worry about your supply ship somewhere to the rear.

 

Wrong comparision. If anything, a DD would would be stuck in the view of his torpedos and would have to care about his ship at the same time. And that comparision would only make sense, if the DD could steer its torpedos.

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Why do we bother with whiners who whine about anything, that everything outside their circle of understanding is either crap or OP? Then WG actually changes stuf, making the game more unbalanced and boring?..

Thou i do know that theres a horde of them, and they pay...

 

37 minutes ago, ajb13 said:

Most players just park their CV behind a rock and don't move it again unless a DD comes looking for them

 Aint that what all US CA do? British CA and upcoming DD will be doing? Just piss yellow rainbow and admire yourself...

 BB in general admire borders, or group rape an island because its that beautifull...

 

Aint that the players fault their dumb? Why blame ship but not the captain?...

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54 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Wrong comparision. If anything, a DD would would be stuck in the view of his torpedos and would have to care about his ship at the same time. And that comparision would only make sense, if the DD could steer its torpedos.

The planes are not the ordnance, they are the means to deliver it. Whereas the others ships launch/fire the ordnance themselves the CV has to rely on it's planes to do it for it, in effect adding an intermediary into to the process. The new gameplay is even more focused on this intermediary, in effect turning the planes into the ship, requiring you to control them at all times. In the old RTS  way you could at least just click on the target and the planes would auto drop for you, not very effective but at least you could do it if you need to be manually controlling the CV. 

The CV is different from the other ships because it has a 3 stage process of attack, Ship - Delivery system - ordnance, the other ships are missing that middle one. The new gameplay is even more focused on that delivery system than the old, making the ship even more of a liability, something other ship classes don't have to deal with.

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Hey, when I use tier 5 - 7 cvs (I totally moved away from tier 8 - 10 since the introduction of Worchesters) I think of my ship as a battle carrier. I move as close to the main battle as possible (of course, moving behind an island). And also I follow the fleet if they re pushing. Hell, even I chased enemy ships (even dds!) with my carrier when they were in full retreat. This is specially helpful for me and the team. Being close to the main battle means the planes would have a short time in coming and going towards and from the target.

I would go even closer to the main battle if I would be able to use the carrier´s cannons. (And no, using the automatic weaponry cannons is not feasible. I maxxed out the secondaries of my Kaga and I have only 6,8 km of range and only 1/4 of all shells actually hit the target)

 

Also I use alot of manual control on the carrier, hell, I was being chased in my Zuiho by a Dunkerque and I had to maneuver between some islands in Straits to get away, trying to avoid having a straight firing line between me and the chasing bb. I managed to sink it but all the time I was thinking "How the hell I'm supposed to save myself in this situation if I wouldn't be able to directly control the carrier anymore after the massive nerf?"

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1 minute ago, EgyptOverseer said:

I thought there was already a thread to discuss the rework. Why open a new one?

Hey, dds players opened a ton of threads about radars. It's only fair we open another ton of threads about cvs.

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4 minutes ago, EgyptOverseer said:

I thought there was already a thread to discuss the rework. Why open a new one?

That thread is currently 44 pages long and covers the whole CV rework. This was a more focused question, not about the finer points of the rework, but if the ship even needs to be on the map. If any replies focus on this and don't deviate into whether AP bombs should be in the new game play or not etc, then I think the thread is valid.

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Correct CV positioning seems to be really underrated. Speeds up re-supply time, can cover allies with DefAA and towards end of the game can be vital to taking caps to allow you more time to get strikes off

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4 minutes ago, Rhys566 said:

Correct CV positioning seems to be really underrated. Speeds up re-supply time, can cover allies with DefAA and towards end of the game can be vital to taking caps to allow you more time to get strikes off

Couldn't agree more. But if the majority of players won't do it now when they can just click on the map and their planes fly there, how many are going to bother with the CV when they actually have to fly the planes themselves?

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11 minutes ago, Rhys566 said:

Correct CV positioning seems to be really underrated. Speeds up re-supply time, can cover allies with DefAA and towards end of the game can be vital to taking caps to allow you more time to get strikes off

Most of the rants and insults I get are from my own team saying that I should go to the edge of the corner. They don't realize this tactic works 80% of the times for me.

 

Normally I wouldn't talk about this because knowledge it's power... And I wouldn't really like everybody would do it. But what the hell... Cvs are condemned.

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I think that CV's should always be close to a cruiser or maybe 2 to protect them. There should a rule or some kind of advice given to new players to stick close to cruisers at the back of the map (if there are) or ro incite players to protect CV's in game. Just like today; You wouldn't see a CV alone and not near its escort fregates and destroyers/cruisers and supply ships, right? Well same thing for WWII CV's! 

 

Right now players have the ability to sail their CV's anywhere they want on the map, and isolating themselves from the rest of their team. This is suicidal! CV's must bevefit from the AA coverage and artillery protection from at least another destroyer or cruiser!

 

So in this way, I think the old/current system of playing CV's is good, (RTS-tactical map) and the new proposed gameplay good too, but why wouldn't it be possible ot offer the modes simultaneously to new players and existing players, without creating an imbalance in the game?

If players want to play with the old gamemode (RTS-like), they just need to press a special key. If however they want to control a dive bomber or torpedo bomber or fighter squadron to play more "action oriented", they can press a special key too! 

 

I think  that Cv's in low tiers should benefit only from the new proposed CV gameplay (more arcade/action oriented) and CV's of higher tiers with 2 gameplay modes. This way new players would be acquainted with the new gameplay on the loweer tiers and then with more experience would be better with the new gameplay.

 

There MUST a way to find a compromise between the old CV gameplay mode and the upcoming one.

 

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There is no point in playing carriers at all. If you want to play a RTS you might as well play a good one, like Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance.

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2 hours ago, Lin3 said:

There is no point in playing carriers at all. If you want to play a RTS you might as well play a good one, like Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance.

 

There is no point in playing WoWs at all. If you want to play a casual shooter, you might as well play a good one like Cod4.

 

See how ridiculous your argument is?

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12 hours ago, Lin3 said:

There is no point in playing carriers at all. If you want to play a RTS you might as well play a good one, like Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance.

 

The concept of an RTS mode isn't a bad one since it's such a tactical view and it has a logical place for CV's, the same way third person shooter fits the surface ships reasonably well.

The main issue I understand from my CV playing friends is the RTS interface was pretty crappily done with all sorts of bugs.

 

Obviously the excessive influence factor is a totally separate issue. I make no bones about the fact I can't stand CV's the way they are implemented, but the RTS concept isn't the problem to me.

 

In the games where my side has a competent CV captain it's very clear that they are far from the immobile airfield @ajb13 mentions nor do they place themselves as far from the fight as they can, the really good ones get as close as they can get away with and move often, they sometimes deliberately bait ships after them so their team can clobber them. Good CV players are very good players, which of course is why they are really influential and one reason this rework is being worked on.

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I've toyed with the idea of making the CV an off-the-map asset. But I dislike the thought for three reasons.

 

First is psychological -- it takes the CV away from his team. No-one likes that guy who's way out in back, out of harms way. 

 

Second, when I look at the CV rework, I feel like the CV player desperately needs more things to do. Only having that single plane wave ad infinitum would get old, real fast.

 

Third, WASD'ing of CV's is currently one of those non-problematic, skill-based things anyone can do. It doesn't require great micro/multitasking skills, it's easily achievable using same situational awareness skills you apply to any ship. It's a skill-based thing which doesn't break the CV balance -- keep it!

 

I agree it's frustrating to look at CV's who refuse to take a couple seconds to set autopilot route points for their ship. I've always held that it should be very rare that you die in a CV. You're generally quite fast, you have low concealment. Carrier sniping is actually not easy if you're on the move. And even DD's should rarely reach you, if you constantly reposition so that your team shields you. Sole exceptions are Langley and Bogue, which are so slow it sometimes kills you no matter what you do.

 

I'm currently sitting on a K/D of 18.2 on the Zuiho -- mainly through dying less than 1 game in 20.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, jss78 said:

it takes the CV away from his team. No-one likes that guy who's way out in back, out of harms way. 

 

On the other hand everyone loves to be the guy who is invulnerable, so placing CVs off map could boost their popularity.

 

As much as I'd hate it, removing the CV from the playing field is the most likely solution I can totally see WG going with. It ticks all the boxes of a typical attempt at glorious balans.

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6 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

There is no point in playing WoWs at all. If you want to play a casual shooter, you might as well play a good one like Cod4.

 

See how ridiculous your argument is?

I want to play a free, online player vs player team based shooting and avoiding getting killed game with a gentle non-stressful game pace preferably with some historical military theme that I'm interested in.

 

Warships fits the bill for now - when playing cruisers or battleships. CoD4 doesn't. It's too frantic.

 

Cruisers and battleships have very different gameplay mechanics to carriers.

 

See how ridiculous your argument is now.

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2 hours ago, Lin3 said:

I want to play a free, online player vs player team based shooting and avoiding getting killed game with a gentle non-stressful game pace preferably with some historical military theme that I'm interested in.

 

Warships fits the bill for now - when playing cruisers or battleships. CoD4 doesn't. It's too frantic.

 

Cruisers and battleships have very different gameplay mechanics to carriers.

 

See how ridiculous your argument is now.

 

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17 hours ago, ajb13 said:

Wouldn't it be better to represent the CV off map?

Where is the fun in playing a CV if it is off map?

I have just started playing the Independence, although only in co op ATM, trying to gain skills and knowledge on how to be a good CV player, I travel around the map, keeping my concealment distance, Bombing first, torps after player/bot uses his heal, and having great fun, playing Random's will be more serious and difficult, but playing off map would make me wanna stop playing CV's and go back to Missouri. 

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I dont want to spend half the day waiting for my planes to arrive from the border  -  20km strikes suck....

 

Best CV position is behind a Rock around B cap on most maps ...

People still think its a good idea to push a "CV island" - have fun with 6km strikes and planes being your friend every half minute....

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7 hours ago, Lin3 said:

I want to play a free, online player vs player team based shooting and avoiding getting killed game with a gentle non-stressful game pace preferably with some historical military theme that I'm interested in.

 

Warships fits the bill for now - when playing cruisers or battleships. CoD4 doesn't.

 

I want to play a free, online player vs player team based game with a gentle non-stressful game pace preferably with some historical military theme that I'm interested in.

 

Warships fits the bill for now - when playing all classes, including CVs. Supreme Commander doesn't.

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17 hours ago, Lin3 said:

There is no point in playing carriers at all. If you want to play a RTS you might as well play a good one, like Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance.

That's like saying "why would you use torpedos as a cruiser when you could use them as a destroyer."

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13 hours ago, jss78 said:

First is psychological -- it takes the CV away from his team. No-one likes that guy who's way out in back, out of harms way. 

 

13 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

On the other hand everyone loves to be the guy who is invulnerable, so placing CVs off map could boost their popularity.

 

5 hours ago, iJoby said:

Where is the fun in playing a CV if it is off map?

Under the new CV system you are no longer a CV commander co-ordinating strikes from multiple squadrons while organising fighters for your teams defence, you are now a squadron leader of a squadron of strike planes who can call in fighters for support and has a vulnerable base which if sunk knocks him out of the game. He also has to deal with the fact that he has very few resources available with which to defend that vulnerable base. Moving that base off map won't make the player invulnerable though, he's commanding the planes and they are going to be shot down by the enemy AA. 

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4 hours ago, ajb13 said:

Under the new CV system you are no longer a CV commander co-ordinating strikes from multiple squadrons while organising fighters for your teams defence, you are now a squadron leader of a squadron of strike planes who can call in fighters for support and has a vulnerable base which if sunk knocks him out of the game. He also has to deal with the fact that he has very few resources available with which to defend that vulnerable base. Moving that base off map won't make the player invulnerable though, he's commanding the planes and they are going to be shot down by the enemy AA. 

Sounds fun! where did sub_octavian or devs post all this?, I must have missed it. :(

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