Jump to content
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
Praevasc

Why do I suddenly fail so badly at tier 7?

40 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

[HUN]
Players
235 posts
2,312 battles

With my favorite tier 5 ships I can maintain a win rate of 60% or more. I thought I know how to play, even if I never considered myself a pro.

However, after getting to tier 7, I started to fail. Badly.

 

What is strange, that I observed what players around 40% winrate do at tier 7. In destroyers, they hang in the back. In cruisers and battleships, they either start the game by retreating into a corner and only emerging in late game when the battle is already irredeemably lost, always firing from their max range and never hitting anything, or they hit forward never ever touching the rudder at all, focus on shooting at faraway targets, and get deleted by destroyers because they always travel in a straight line with constant speed. Or they always show broadside to the enemy, even in cruisers. ... and I have a winrate worse than them!

 

Yes, I thought it was bad luck. It still seems like bad luck. But after 75 battles I thought the odds should even out and I now start getting skeptical whether I don't really do insanely stupid things.

 

Here is how most of my battles go.

- Yes, there are a few battles where I make a dumb mistake. In a destroyer, turning the wrong way, turning too soon or too late, and eating a faceful of torpedoes in a cap. In a battleship, by reacting too late to changes in the battle, and getting focused on by 5 enemies and quickly killed. But these are very rare.

- Sometimes I do lose a duel in a cap, destroyer against destroyer, against a very skilled opponent, and end up among the lowest scoring on my team. But my team never ever ever wins such a battle. Ever. As if that duel was the sole thing deciding the whole battle. However, when I win the first DD clash and get First Blood, dominate my surroundings, the battle is often lost by the rest of the team doing badly on the other side of the map.

- Most of the time in a DD (the Maas), I push forward, with some support, manage to cap and kill the opposing DD, push further, deal a lot of damage, then I see that the other front collapsed completely and the enemy has an advantage of 2 or 3 ships, and we lose. Or I have to retreat and lose the cap, because no one supports me and I am against 3 or 4 enemies, I then spend the rest of the battle dealing damage, often significantly more than my HP, end up in the upper half of the scoreboard, but we still lose by points when time inevitably runs out. I have concealment expert for my Maas and always have a camo on, and at least a couple of flags and premium consumables. (Compare that to my most played destroyer, the T-22, with a winrate of almost 60%. More like 80% during the second half of the battles, as I had a winrate around 50% in the first few dozen battles while I was still learning how to play destroyers)

- Most of the time I see 1 or 2 BBs on my team spending the first 5 minutes AFK, a few of the rest camping and missing every shot from their maximum range, and almost all the cruisers showing broadside to the enemy and quickly dying. When playing a BB, often no matter how fast I go forward to the action, the DD duels are lost and the enemy killed 2 or 3 of our light ships without any losses. Then it's too late to turn the tide.

- It almost never happens why I do badly, that my team still wins. Whenever I play badly, for example do little damage due to bad positioning, or get killed soon, my team almost always loses. Even if I'm a tier 7 ship and almost everyone else is tier 9.

 

Maybe it sounds like a rant, but I feel that around 10% of the time I really did a big mistake, and 90% of the time my team lost because of the matchmaking putting all the noobs into my team. But after 75 battles, the odds should have evened out, shouldn't they?

 

 

Before I entered random battles, I grinded all tier 7 ships in PvE to have all modules researched, and to have a captain around level 10, to not enter the random battles under-equipped.

Sometimes I lose about 10 battles in a row, despite being in the first half of the list of xp earned in almost all of them, and being among the first 3 in at least some of them. I ask myself, how? If I stayed AFK in all 10 battles, by random chance alone I should win at least a few of them, because I've seen battles we won even with 2 of our players AFK.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
5,567 posts
11,257 battles

Short: You are still a newbie with 856 random battles under your belt and you surely have much to learn (this is to be expected):Smile-_tongue:

At tier 5 it is mainly your CV that is keeping your stats afloat, but you also know how to use a DD to your team's advantage.

4h4h4h.jpg

 

But at tier 5+ not only the game mechanics are becoming increasingly complex and unforgiving - the (enemy) players also are more experienced.

Thus your CV performance can't outweigh your lacking results with other ships anymore

hewhewhew.jpg

 

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[HUN]
Players
235 posts
2,312 battles
8 minutes ago, aboomination said:

But at tier 5+ not only the game mechanics are becoming increasingly complex and unforgiving - the (enemy) players also are more experienced.

I do occasionally come across with very experienced players, but it seems to me that in the majority of battles I played at tier 7, a lot of players do lots and lots of very dumb mistakes, as presented above. And only in very rare occasions does it happen that I'm not in the first 5 of XP earned in a lost battle. So basically I have a similar winrate as players who never move form the starting position, fire at their maximum range hitting nothing, or are driving in a straight line showing broadside all the time. Despite me not playing like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[-AP-]
Players
1,861 posts
4,611 battles
3 minutes ago, Praevasc said:

I do occasionally come across with very experienced players, but it seems to me that in the majority of battles I played at tier 7, a lot of players do lots and lots of very dumb mistakes, as presented above. And only in very rare occasions does it happen that I'm not in the first 5 of XP earned in a lost battle. So basically I have a similar winrate as players who never move form the starting position, fire at their maximum range hitting nothing, or are driving in a straight line showing broadside all the time. Despite me not playing like that.

You are probably making entirely other mistakes, without realizing it. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
5,567 posts
11,257 battles
5 minutes ago, Praevasc said:

I do occasionally come across with very experienced players, but it seems to me that in the majority of battles I played at that tier, a lot of players do lots and lots of very dumb mistakes, as presented above. 

Yes, there are unbelievably stupid people playing this game. But also a lot of newbies like you ;) Still, at t7 there's a lot happening. Manual attacks by CV, radars, nasty AA - bigger maps, a different pace of battle....AND (speaking from experience) this is a great tier for very experienced players to relax and have a good time at your expense. 

By the way: Your stats at t7 tell me that you have your own derp moments as well :Smile-_tongue: 38k average dmg is terrible for the Gneisenau, so you're surely no innocent victim of bad teams ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[HUN]
Players
235 posts
2,312 battles
9 minutes ago, aboomination said:

38k average dmg is terrible for the Gneisenau, so you're surely no innocent victim of bad teams ;)

That I admit. My average is surely hurt by having a couple of matches when I got focused on and killed while doing less than 10k damage. There I surely did something horribly wrong.

But what really bothers me is that in matches where I do more than 70-80k damage I still lose more often than not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NIKE]
Beta Tester
3,218 posts
6,520 battles
43 minutes ago, Praevasc said:

 

- Most of the time in a DD (the Maas), I push forward, with some support, manage to cap and kill the opposing DD, push further, deal a lot of damage, then I see that the other front collapsed completely and the enemy has an advantage of 2 or 3 ships, and we lose.

 

This may be partially your problem.

 

The first part is good - going forward, killing enemy DD and securing cap. Great stuff.

 

You then however push forward and do a bunch of damage. Ok damage can be useful. But it's not your primary focus. You then notice the other flank has fallen and you lose.

 

After you have taken the first cap, assess if you need to remain there. If the cap is under threat by an enemy DD then stay. If you are needed for spotting then sure stay. If however you are just farming damage off a retreating BB and trying to torp them then you are wasting your time. Instead you need to be looking at the next cap and seeing how you are going to take that/fend off enemy DD from there. 

 

If your team owns all the caps and you are farming damage that's fine. If your team does not own all the caps and you are off farming damage then you are probably contributing to the loss.

 

As a DD caps are your main focus, and stopping them from being retaken. Torping a BB is good for lols but don't go out of the way to do it

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
5,567 posts
11,257 battles
15 minutes ago, Praevasc said:

That I admit. My average is surely hurt by having a couple of matches when I got focused on and killed while doing less than 10k damage. There I surely did something horribly wrong.

But what really bothers me is that in matches where I do more than 70-80k damage I still lose more often than not.

60-70k should be the average game and is surely no guaranteed win. That's maybe 2-4 additional salvos on top of what you're already doing on average. Also, there's more to winning "lost" matches than dealing damage. Sometimes it's about reading the map and doing the right thing just in time (for example heading back to base to defend or moving to create crossfires). If you don't pay attention to the flow of battle and get capped unnecessarily five times in 100 matches - that's -5% WR for you which could've been avoided. Just an example, the game really is quite complex.

 

Also don't die this early - this should really not happen often...MAYBE once in 100 matches. But not dying early while also contributing in a meaningful way, that's where experience comes into play.

A lot of players will be too passive once they reached your stage of confusion, which is also not helping much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Players
6,553 posts
7,482 battles

The problem i think is, that you perform well enough when being lowtier, and not good enough when being toptier.

Basicly T5 is mostly lowtier against T6 and T7, while T7 is usually toptier.

 

Its kinda hard to describe but i try to make it more clear:

When you are lowtier, you have the other hightier ships which will have to do all the work. So if you are able to do basic stuff, you might win more often.

However, when you are the toptier, YOU have to produce. On average, you arent doing that. Thats why i see many ppl have good stats on some tiers (T3, T5, T8) when they are more often lowtier than toptier. And they have worse stats on tiers, where they are mid-toptier (T4, T6/7 T9/10) more often.

Look at your own stats, and basicly this is a confirmation.  I can take my own stats as a different example, even tho im usually playing Division. The tiers im usually Lowtier, i have worse WR than on the Tiers i get to be Toptier more often.

That means, i cant produce so much when being lowtier (lets face it, lowertier ships are usually worse than the ones above), but i can do it when being toptier.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
349 posts
15,839 battles

Our community had provided you with a well analyzed and constructive observation, it should be more than enough to come to your conclusion. If not, let's summarize and just say that you've walked into a very rough neighborhood populated by nasty, unique and potent ships piloted by large numbers of experienced captains. Not to mention that the meta-game shifts drastically, radar gets it's first introduction, along with strong AA, HE monsters (Atlanta anyone? Kutuzov perhaps?). It requires quite an adjustment.

 

But worry not, as you will pull through, one should not worry about large numbers of losses with only 800 under his belt. 

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[THESO]
Players
585 posts
10,859 battles

 

1 hour ago, Praevasc said:

- Most of the time I see 1 or 2 BBs on my team spending the first 5 minutes AFK, a few of the rest camping and missing every shot from their maximum range, and almost all the cruisers showing broadside to the enemy and quickly dying.

It is sentences like this that make me sceptical. I have developed some map awareness by now. I think about positioning, how I approach the frontline, where my options to disengage are, where I expect certain enemy ships to go. Then I pick a fight and I dedicate most of my ressources to winning it, while keeping at least an eye on possible threats. I could not for the sake of christ tell, what my BBs or cruisers are doing for the first 5 minutes. Isee them move on the mini map. Do my BBs hit anything? I don't follow their salvos. Are my cruisers broadside? Unless they are close by, I would not know.

So if you follow the actions of your team so closely, you either spend to much attention on them and forget your own situation or well, you do not actually observe that for a fact, but are taking guesses.

From pure description it is next to impossible to analyse what you do right or wrong.

1 hour ago, Praevasc said:

Maybe it sounds like a rant, but I feel that around 10% of the time I really did a big mistake, and 90% of the time my team lost because of the matchmaking putting all the noobs into my team. But after 75 battles, the odds should have evened out, shouldn't they?

It sounds like a rant, but after a series of bad games I feel averybody has the right to do some ranting. We're only human after all. Yes the odds should even out a bit and I think it is safe to say, it is not the teams fault, although RNG can have quite an influence.

I allow myself a slight off-topic anecdotal digression on the topic of RNG and bad luck:

I recently played two similar ships in a line. Both I grinded over 50-60 battles and they are supposed to be played identically and just as I played them. On the first one I did really well tier-wise, ended up with a 45% WR. I could not believe it. On the successor I did slightly worse but still quite good, ended up with 64% WR. I could even less believe it. Frankly, I felt I did 55% WR on both and there was like a 10% variation in luck over 50 games. This is like winning 22 games on one ship and 32 games on the other ship instead of 27 games on both. 5 games of good or bad luck over 50 games seems possible. Still on paper it looks like i played one ship like a potato and the other like a unicum, which both is nonsense.

 

That was just to showcase bad stats may have considerable tolerance to good play.

In your case, I don't think the bad experience solely lies with the T7 ships. Quite naturally you get matched into T8 and T9 games and that can be a damper. But I suppose your problems may be ship-specific.

You are not talking about T7, but actually about the three T7-ships you have so far. I took the liberty to browse your stats.

 

1. Ranger: T7 sees some good premium carriers: Kaga and Saipan. Ranger can match them, but not if they are played by experienced players. Many players who stick with CV play and even get premiums are very seasoned. You don't stand a chance.

 

2. Gneisenau: Gneisenau is special. She is a dedicated brawler, bad at long range, few guns, shines when built for secondaries. Must be played accordingly. So you need to find the right place and time to move into caps and bully other ships. If you move too early and alone, you get focussed and burned down. If you wait too long, you have little impact on the game and your team gets behind on ships while you take ineffective shots at range. Gneisenau definitely is not a Bayern. So the adaption comes at a price of defeats.

 

3. Maass: While at T6 you may occasionally end up in T8 or come across a radar equipped Indianapolis, at T7 radar is much more prevalent, when you get into T8-9. Combined with a ship that has T7 survivability, that may be hard. Getting deleted early in a DD may put your team at a decisive disadvantage. Many of these losses will start with your team falling behind on caps.

 

But as I stated, I don't think a player making an effort can mess up his team in a way that he alone is responsible for a 36% WR. I have seen stats of really bad players and they get consistent 40%. Nobody making an effort can top that. That is definitely bad luck. Probably, there is some bad play, too, but without a typical replay, there is not much point speculating.

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Players
2,187 posts
13,988 battles

I guess you could always enable replays and post a few here. This community can always analyze them and provide you with constructive feedback on those.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[JRM]
Players
3,019 posts
18,303 battles

Play T5 untill you have ar least 8 lines with unlocked t6 without skipping (freexp) then go to t6 and do the same for t7 and then same for t7/8 after that you can cut it to 2-3 lines for 8-10 span...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
640 posts

In any particular battle, if you don't end up top XP for your team, then the player who was top could point at you and say that you were part of the problem.

 

It may be that at tier 7, you don't know enough about the game to realise the mistakes that you're making. Dunning Kruger.

Wheras at tier 5 you understand the game well enough.

 

High tier gameplay is different to mid and lower tier.

 

At tier 7 in a DD you will start meeting a lot of radars. Unlike at tier 5 where it's only the odd premium ship that can cast the Magic Spell of Revelation.

 

It sounds like you may not be adapting your gameplay according to the matchmaking, the map, the gamemode, what your team does at the start of the game. There is no one size fits all strategy for this game. It's horses for courses. Sometimes you should push in aggressively, other times you should be more circumspect.

 

 

See if you can find some unicum players to division with and learn from them. Or stick to mid-tiers - which for my tastes - has a more fun type gameplay anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[-TPF-]
Players
2,265 posts
10,664 battles

Tier VII is the point at which conserving your ships' resources becomes more important. (It's also the point at which more people pad their stats by staying right out of it all game and then turning up at the end to take a valiant kill or two from an enemy fleet whittled down by the rest of their team). 

 

Like everyone else said, you'll be getting a first taste of Radar,  powerful AA, facing Tier VIII and IX ships, more organised tactics, experienced players: Tier VII is also the home of the Premium ship, so you'll run into more of WGs Greatest Hits/Misses/P2W ships - Belfast, Saipan, Scharnhorst, Flint - and more of their "this sounded like a great idea at the time" - Nelson's zombie heal, etc. So there's a lot to catch up with. You can also be facing it in silver ships which are hobbled Treaty designs, powercrept oldies, or some of WGs more niche ideas. The ships you've picked are both in the latter category. Gneisenau's main guns are so trollish in their accuracy it's like playing South Carolina, and playing a BB which excels at close range combat is so different to everything else in the line really does take a lot of getting your head around. It's why you see so many Scharnhorsts around - that does the brawling and the proper BB stuff much better than the silver line ship. Maass seems to be a bit of a downgrade from Gaede and it's one of those ships which doesn't do anything better than its opponents - so you've got no ship skills or special qualities to fall back on, like your opponents do - it's all about the Captain

 

I would suggest playing a couple of other lines up to Tier VI and getting a few more games under your belt before committing to Tier VII full on. French BBs are versatile and fun, and maybe Pan-Asian destroyers? The upcoming RN line of DDs may also be more to your taste if you like to play aggressively in quite "normal" designs.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BLAST]
[BLAST]
Players
721 posts
11,923 battles
9 hours ago, aboomination said:

60-70k should be the average game and is surely no guaranteed win.

 

In Gneisenau? That's a bit unrealistic for the average game.

 

 

Screenshot from 2018-09-05 09-46-33.png

Screenshot from 2018-09-05 09-46-53.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
5,567 posts
11,257 battles
17 minutes ago, Armorin said:

In Gneisenau? That's a bit unrealistic for the average game.

Well, OP is ambitious :Smile-_tongue:

Ok - let's say he should strive for above 50k if he wants to be part of the upper half of the rotten player base ;)

I just wanted to put into perspective what he was saying - boasting 70k dmg games isn't exactly impressive and by no means are those games lost by the team alone.

3g3g3.jpg

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TTT]
Players
4,608 posts
8,081 battles
7 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

 

From pure description it is next to impossible to analyse what you do right or wrong.

This. But there's a solution for that.

@Praevasc how about you upload a replay or three (ideally not in your CV, those tend to be quite buggy...), so we can actually see what you do and give some concrete advice? We've done that a couple of times in the past around here, when someone had shown that he's actually willing to listen and learn, and have usually been quite successful :Smile_Default: Make it neither an exceptionally good nor bad game, just an "average" one, that should give us the best impressions

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[DAVY]
[DAVY]
Beta Tester
90 posts
4,236 battles

Op has to remember that t8+  ships can mount an extra upgrade.

So he will be fighting enemy dd's that have concealment upgrade fitted and higher lvl captains with more skills.

a lvl 10 captain is just not good enough to be fighting t8+ ships imo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BBMM]
Players
4,127 posts
4,622 battles
7 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

So if you follow the actions of your team so closely, you either spend to much attention on them and forget your own situation or well, you do not actually observe that for a fact, but are taking guesses.

...or he does it like me, he hangs around after getting BBQed, looking at what the teammates are doing, meanwhile thinking "WTF". 

 

I have the same sort of problem in T7, usually because I get uptiered. The ships are different, but the playstyle is too. 

In King George V this is not good (bowtanking, the usual BB thing in T8/9, doesn't work. I can pen nothing but they all can pen me even cruisers).

In Hood, much less of a problem. In a T7 game no problems with either, if most others are T6 or even T5 I even start to feel sorry for them...

 

The main problem, looks like everyone is hiding in a cave, then whenever something gets detected, they all jump on it like a bunch of vultures.

Which is the problem if you try to do something usefull... yes then you get detected...  and shot by at least half the enemy team.

 

i wonder what T8 will be like... LOL. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[HUN]
Players
235 posts
2,312 battles
14 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

So if you follow the actions of your team so closely, you either spend to much attention on them and forget your own situation or well, you do not actually observe that for a fact, but are taking guesses.

 

after I die I tend to follow other people around, and this is when it often occurs, that "hey, they did even worse than me, but they still have a higher winrate". I often see players committing the worst offenses having a winrate around 43-45%, I even see many battles won by a team which has one or two AFK players, so the question naturally occurs, what can cause a worse winrate than that. It happened to me only a single time that I died early and my team still won. It happened often that someone else died the first and their team still won, so the question naturally occurs, "how can it always be my fault?"

About the Gneisenau, despite most people claiming here that it's often downtiered, it seems to me that I played at least as often against higher tiers, maybe even more often, than against lower tiers. But maybe 21 battles are not enough for statistical significance?

 

Still, thanks for the useful advices, I'll try to keep them in mind.

 

Yes, I know that knowing the theory is not enough, and I need a lot of practice. I know dueling a much more experienced player is hopeless with the number of battles I played. Still, it seems to me there were fewer battles where I thought "wow they played so well I didn't have a chance!", and much more battles where I thought "why are my teammates all huddled in a corner behind out starting location?".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Players
6,553 posts
7,482 battles
14 minutes ago, Praevasc said:

I often see players committing the worst offenses having a winrate around 43-45%,

 

Because you cant have more of a negative effect on your team even if you tried.

Id say 40% is as worse as you can get solo WR, even if you would constantly be afk. With BBs and Cruisers the influence is probably a bit lower than doing that with a DD. And when you really suck in a CV, i think you might even go as low as 30%.

 

That you have 21 games with 38% WR is probably just unlucky. Just realized i have the same WR in my Fuso also with 21 games :Smile_teethhappy: Sometimes you just have those ships were you have a very bad WR, and sometimes you have a super WR in the first 20-30 games. But depending on the skill of the player, one of them tend to happen more often. Good players sometimes will have losing streaks too, if that happens with a ship with only a few games - nothing you can do about it. Overall tho, they will more often have a good WR right from the get go. Same as a bad player will more often start with a bad WR for each new ship, but sometimes they too will get winning streaks.

 

However if you get to 100+ games in a ship and you still have 40% WR, id say the problem starts to be with you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BBMM]
Players
4,127 posts
4,622 battles
29 minutes ago, Praevasc said:

so the question naturally occurs, what can cause a worse winrate than that.

 

I know: trying to cover the DD, scoring no points and getting BLAPped (I'm an expert...). 

But we won that game... due to me finding out the whole enemy team had lemming trained to A.

 

Truth is: it's not you, decide after > 100 games if you're any good in the ship or not.

And that's 100 games AFTER you fully equipped it. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TTT]
Players
4,608 posts
8,081 battles
33 minutes ago, Praevasc said:

 

But maybe 21 battles are not enough for statistical significance?

 

 

well, there's your problem. Look at it this way: If you had won just three more of these games, which I think you'll agree is easily possible if either you or one of your teammates had just played that teeny tiny bit better (or an enemy played worse, for that matter), you'd have over 50% winrate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[HUN]
Players
235 posts
2,312 battles

A bad habit of mine which I might have to change, is that I usually try to maximize earnings by playing each ship once, to get the daily bonus, so if I have time for a limited number of battles a day, it's often with lots of different ships. Maybe playing a different ship every battle is much harder to pull off right at higher tiers, where playstyles between different ships even of the same class  might vary a lot.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×