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Warhawk1984

idea for new equipment ECM/radar spoofing

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Currently Radar is a I WIN BUTTON when facing a smoke user especially RN CL's it completely negates smoke with no drawbacks what so ever, i am trying to come up with a counter equipment takes away the I WIN BUTTON. 

 

The equipment, Designed for smoke users (DD/RN CL's)

 

What it does spoofs the radar of hostile ships making it less reliable.

 

how it would function in game when activated it sends feedback making the spotted ship(s) (that radar is detecting) appear in 4 different places within 2km of the detected ship, effectively making ghost ships on the spotters side. if you are being seen visually as well it wont work.

 

the radar isn't just completely negated it turns the one ship you spotted in to 5 ships relatively close to each other giving you a 20% chance to pick the right ship as it were.

 

ghost ships will have the same hp as the parent ship and will decrease as it is hit thus preventing rapid fire cruisers sending a volley to each ship and negating the spoof effect.

 

the Equipment:

 

2 charges as standard, can be chosen by RN CL's instead of hydro, comes on DD's as standard at tier 7.

 

duration:

 

Tier 7 10 seconds

Tier 8 15 seconds

Tier 9 20 Seconds

Tier 10 25 Seconds

 

best used as a item that will aid a ship that is spotted by radar to try and get out of radar range.

 

could also be used to make it look like there are lots of big ships behind a island when in fact there may only be 1 and a destroyer.

 

 

This is only a concept any alterations you feel would work better please add.

 

also a :Smile_great: if you like the idea and a :Smile_facepalm: if you hate and i guess a :Smile_hiding:to abstain/needs more work

 

and i am guessing people that react without making any constructive criticism are either *edit or love there radar shipp

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

Edited by Rvirgo
This post has been edited by the moderation team due to inappropriate remarks.
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1 hour ago, Warhawk1984 said:

Currently Radar is a I WIN BUTTON when facing a smoke user especially RN CL's it completely negates smoke with no drawbacks what so ever, i am trying to come up with a counter equipment takes away the I WIN BUTTON. 

 

The equipment, Designed for smoke users (DD/RN CL's)

 

What it does spoofs the radar of hostile ships making it less reliable.

 

how it would function in game when activated it sends feedback making the spotted ship(s) (that radar is detecting) appear in 4 different places within 2km of the detected ship, effectively making ghost ships on the spotters side. if you are being seen visually as well it wont work.

 

the radar isn't just completely negated it turns the one ship you spotted in to 5 ships relatively close to each other giving you a 20% chance to pick the right ship as it were.

 

ghost ships will have the same hp as the parent ship and will decrease as it is hit thus preventing rapid fire cruisers sending a volley to each ship and negating the spoof effect.

 

the Equipment:

 

2 charges as standard, can be chosen by RN CL's instead of hydro, comes on DD's as standard at tier 7.

 

duration:

 

Tier 7 10 seconds

Tier 8 15 seconds

Tier 9 20 Seconds

Tier 10 25 Seconds

 

best used as a item that will aid a ship that is spotted by radar to try and get out of radar range.

 

could also be used to make it look like there are lots of big ships behind a island when in fact there may only be 1 and a destroyer.

 

 

This is only a concept any alterations you feel would work better please add.

 

also a :Smile_great: if you like the idea and a :Smile_facepalm: if you hate and i guess a :Smile_hiding:to abstain/needs more work

 

and i am guessing people that react without making any constructive criticism are either *edit or love there radar shipp

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

Yes, lets bring illusions into the game.

How about illusionary islands, that can give cover or illusionary torpedos to confuse enemies (if you fail your saving throw they will sink you nonetheless...)?

 

Looks like Warhawk still misses the basics about radar counterplay....

To be honest, I cannot remember the last time one of my ships got sunk while being radared...

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1 hour ago, Warhawk1984 said:

Currently Radar is a I WIN BUTTON

 

Radar is not an "I-win-button". Ive yet to see enemy ships explode just cuz I activate radar and nobody shoots.

 

1 hour ago, Warhawk1984 said:

and i am guessing people that react without making any constructive criticism are either *edit or love there radar shipp

 

Yea, because insulting people is contructive to the max.

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1 hour ago, Warhawk1984 said:

and i am guessing people that react without making any constructive criticism are either *edit or love there radar shipp  

This sort of statement as your closing argument makes you look like a 12-year old arguing for an extended bedtime. Is that constructive enough?

 

1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

Yes, lets bring illusions into the game.

How about illusionary islands, that can give cover or illusionary torpedos to confuse enemies (if you fail your saving throw they will sink you nonetheless...)?

My ships already fire illusionary shells. Thanks, RNGesus. :Smile_sad:

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Getting blindfired in my smoke playing a RN CL is hundred times worse than being Radared.

Radar i can counter by staying away from the radar ships or outside of their usual locations. Also smoking at the right place helps ofc, like close to islands, so you can hide in time.

However there is no real "counter" to being shot at in your smoke. Moving helps, but its not a counter, since a counter to that counter is the enemy aiming properly.

The only real counter to getting blindfired is moving and NOT shooting... which defeats the purpose of the smoke i guess.

 

All in all a consumable counter to radar is just plain bad. Also you proposal doesnt work anyway because:

- I shoot a ghost ship, which loses HP when i shoot it. Will i get damage for that? That would be very stupid balance wise, then i could just farm damage and XP. Or what about damage to rudder/engine? Even with last stand its not like normal. Should those ghost ships still be as fast/maneuvarable even when they have engine/rudder damage? I must be able to damage them, because otherwise you could guess which ship is the wrong one.

- All ships would need to shoot/launch torps at the same time in order to maintain the illusion, which is even more terrible. Imagine you are shooting an enemy DD, he suddenly has to evade like 30 bullets and he wont know which are the real ones.

- Or even worse for Torps: A Shima uses that consumable and suddenly it launches 5x3x5 torps, because otherwise you might now which is the real Shima. Same time how you know which are real torps and which are fake ones?

The only way to prevent that would mean: Dont use your guns/torps if you want to maintain "hidden", which is also very questionable imo.

 

Conclusion:

We dont need stuff like that. We dont need a counter consumable for Radar.

What we need is ships that can be spotted outside their Radar range, unlike US CLs which can instantly Radar when they are spotted.

Tackle the main issue - dont work around them.

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rendering a ship parked in smoke because it is spotted by radar is an illusion they ship is not being seen visually, in reality you should have no idea which way the ship is facing. 

 

rendering ships outside your view range because it is spotted by a different ship and your told over the radio?  same thing you complain about illusions yet they already exist in this game

 

radars that spot ships through solid landmass's radars that negate a consumable completely yeah thats fine

 

when ever a ship is rendered that is not rendered because of direct visual viewing it is in effect an illusion 

 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Getting blindfired in my smoke playing a RN CL is hundred times worse than being Radared.

Radar i can counter by staying away from the radar ships or outside of their usual locations. Also smoking at the right place helps ofc, like close to islands, so you can hide in time.

However there is no real "counter" to being shot at in your smoke. Moving helps, but its not a counter, since a counter to that counter is the enemy aiming properly.

The only real counter to getting blindfired is moving and NOT shooting... which defeats the purpose of the smoke i guess.

 

All in all a consumable counter to radar is just plain bad. Also you proposal doesnt work anyway because:

- I shoot a ghost ship, which loses HP when i shoot it. Will i get damage for that? That would be very stupid balance wise, then i could just farm damage and XP. Or what about damage to rudder/engine? Even with last stand its not like normal. Should those ghost ships still be as fast/maneuvarable even when they have engine/rudder damage? I must be able to damage them, because otherwise you could guess which ship is the wrong one.

- All ships would need to shoot/launch torps at the same time in order to maintain the illusion, which is even more terrible. Imagine you are shooting an enemy DD, he suddenly has to evade like 30 bullets and he wont know which are the real ones.

- Or even worse for Torps: A Shima uses that consumable and suddenly it launches 5x3x5 torps, because otherwise you might now which is the real Shima. Same time how you know which are real torps and which are fake ones?

The only way to prevent that would mean: Dont use your guns/torps if you want to maintain "hidden", which is also very questionable imo.

 

Conclusion:

We dont need stuff like that. We dont need a counter consumable for Radar.

What we need is ships that can be spotted outside their Radar range, unlike US CLs which can instantly Radar when they are spotted.

Tackle the main issue - dont work around them.

you have a fair point there, see smoke and pepper it with torps cruisers dont tend to have the acceleration to avoid them if they were parked up.

 

and i admit the idea has flaws and may not work at all, but Radar is OP as it has zero draw backs. i will use smoke to demonstrate this

 

Smoke:

pros,

you can fire on targets with a much lower chance of detection

can help conceal ships trying to retreat

can help conceal ships trying to cap.

 

cons, 

your ship needs to remain in smoke for full effect, making it static(parking by a island can help)

someone needs to spot for you (amazing how i can now see that cruiser 12km away through all this thick smoke)

easy to counter a few torps normally works. can be tracked by tracers

 

Radar:

Pros

you can spot targets that are out side your view range (spotting a dd with 6km detection range)

you can completely negate smoke (spot everything that is inside smoke cloud)

you can spot ships behind solid land mass's

 

Cons

can be baited to use early

 

cant think of any more and and being baited to use it early is more a player draw back that a radar drawback

 

 

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Radar is already to counter for smoke and super stealthy DDs, so your idea would be like a counter for a counter. There are DDs who are almost impossible to find and kill without another DD or radar (looking at DDs like Asashio with 5.4 km spot range and her 20 or 16 km torpedo range), withs such an consumable you'd have no chance to get these ships down.

Radar is fine, as it limits DDs action radius and gives cruiser a threat bonus; meaning DDs will stay away from them, resulting in protection of nearby allies.

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6 minutes ago, RC_8015 said:

Radar is already to counter for smoke and super stealthy DDs, so your idea would be like a counter for a counter. There are DDs who are almost impossible to find and kill without another DD or radar (looking at DDs like Asashio with 5.4 km spot range and her 20 or 16 km torpedo range), withs such an consumable you'd have no chance to get these ships down.

Radar is fine, as it limits DDs action radius and gives cruiser a threat bonus; meaning DDs will stay away from them, resulting in protection of nearby allies.

you are completely right the need of radar was there, because the CV was not, but now the rework is almost complete and if cv keeps there ability to spot do we even need radar

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6 minutes ago, Warhawk1984 said:

you are completely right the need of radar was there, because the CV was not, but now the rework is almost complete and if cv keeps there ability to spot do we even need radar

 

If anything, CVs are losing their ability to spot. Which would call for more radar, by that logic.

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13 minutes ago, Warhawk1984 said:

you are completely right the need of radar was there, because the CV was not, but now the rework is almost complete and if cv keeps there ability to spot do we even need radar

Well, not talking about others, but I can spot very well right now with my CV. IGN Cvs are perfect for that, with your 6 squads you can force enemy DDs to smoke, hide behind their allies or retreat away from your VIP targets. So even with the new CV rework (once its all balanced out and ready for live which will take a while),  you will always need radar. No CV can ever spot smoked targets for example, and some smoke screen can hide you for 2 minutes completly.  So without radar, contestion caps with DDs around would just be hell of a camp and blind-fire-torps game.

 

And we dont even know for certain how well CVs can spot DDs after the rework. If you realy can controll 1 squad only, then you'd have to sacrifice all of your attack power for spotting or hope that your fighters spott something.

 

No, radar must stay. And what would you do in games without CV's? Then stealth DDs can jolo-troll over the map and up-close torp all BBs freely. Changing MM to include one CV per team is not doable aswell, at least not without much longer queue times.

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6 minutes ago, RC_8015 said:

Well, not talking about others, but I can spot very well right now with my CV. IGN Cvs are perfect for that, with your 6 squads you can force enemy DDs to smoke, hide behind their allies or retreat away from your VIP targets. So even with the new CV rework (once its all balanced out and ready for live which will take a while),  you will always need radar. No CV can ever spot smoked targets for example, and some smoke screen can hide you for 2 minutes completly.  So without radar, contestion caps with DDs around would just be hell of a camp and blind-fire-torps game.

 

And we dont even know for certain how well CVs can spot DDs after the rework. If you realy can controll 1 squad only, then you'd have to sacrifice all of your attack power for spotting or hope that your fighters spott something.

 

No, radar must stay. And what would you do in games without CV's? Then stealth DDs can jolo-troll over the map and up-close torp all BBs freely. Changing MM to include one CV per team is not doable aswell, at least not without much longer queue times.

like i said i dont want radars removed i do like them but the fact they have no drawbacks does make them OP compared to ships without. i am simply looking for a workable idea that gives radar a drawback.

 

perhaps making it that they only work if the ship is traveling at a speed less than 20kts? 

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12 minutes ago, Warhawk1984 said:

like i said i dont want radars removed i do like them but the fact they have no drawbacks does make them OP compared to ships without. i am simply looking for a workable idea that gives radar a drawback.

 

Nope, Radar ships arent plain better than non-radar ships, even when some ppl just say it. Ofc there are exceptions.

Clealy Missouri is better than Iowa because Radar. Worcester is probably not broken because it has Radar, but because of the whole package it has.

But having more DMs is not better than having a Hindenburg f.e.

Also i dont consider any of the Russian radar ships to be OP because of Radar. They are pretty well balanced imo. (Chapa, Donskoi, Moskva, Kronshtadt that is).

 

12 minutes ago, Warhawk1984 said:

perhaps making it that they only work if the ship is traveling at a speed less than 20kts? 

 

Nah, also bad. That would actually punish only bad players. Last 2 games i played with DDs (dont play them often), i got radared by Belfast 3x and the other game once by CLeveland. not one time i was slowing down from fullspeed, so that means i would have never been detected. On the other hand, especially bad players, tend to go to the cap and sit still, or smoke up or something similiar. They would suffer from that, while good DD players wouldnt mind at all. They would just go full speed all match and roam free.

 

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1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Nope, Radar ships arent plain better than non-radar ships, even when some ppl just say it. Ofc there are exceptions.

Clealy Missouri is better than Iowa because Radar. Worcester is probably not broken because it has Radar, but because of the whole package it has.

But having more DMs is not better than having a Hindenburg f.e.

Also i dont consider any of the Russian radar ships to be OP because of Radar. They are pretty well balanced imo. (Chapa, Donskoi, Moskva, Kronshtadt that is).

 

 

Nah, also bad. That would actually punish only bad players. Last 2 games i played with DDs (dont play them often), i got radared by Belfast 3x and the other game once by CLeveland. not one time i was slowing down from fullspeed, so that means i would have never been detected. On the other hand, especially bad players, tend to go to the cap and sit still, or smoke up or something similiar. They would suffer from that, while good DD players wouldnt mind at all. They would just go full speed all match and roam free.

 

better is the wrong word they have more utility and thus more useful to the whole team same as the current jap cv us us cv more squards= more utility

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Then smoke would still be too powerfull in higher tiers. Gearing (US TX DD) has a smoke generator, which produces smoke for 30 seconds, and a cloud stays for 130 seconds. That means you could hide for 160 seconds totaly.Thats almost 3 minutes of stealthy action for you, enough time to fire 20 torps and the next 10 would be almost ready. All the gearing would have to do is move slowly all the time and fire torps once they are ready, all while sitting in a cap, preventing the enemy BBs and cruisers from attacking because they have to fear getting bursted by torps.

 

Listen, I can see where this tpoic is coming from. You are leveling DDs right now and now are encountering your first enemies with radar, so you arent used to it and are getting sunk by radar cruisers. But dont worry, we all have learned how to handle radar as DD. Either by running as far as you can; playinf dodge or die; sometimes ging kamikaze; or staying at the edge of the enemies radar.

Youll get used to it, just keep practicing. Also as general advice, even when smoked keep always moving. You never know when random torps or even a motivated DD suddenly pop up next to you.

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18 minutes ago, Warhawk1984 said:

like i said i dont want radars removed i do like them but the fact they have no drawbacks does make them OP compared to ships without. i am simply looking for a workable idea that gives radar a drawback.

 

perhaps making it that they only work if the ship is traveling at a speed less than 20kts? 

Im predicting that radars will stay in the game, but one of two things will get changed, or both.

 

1. Line of sight radar. No more peaking through Islands.

2. Shorter radar-range then detectability. This is tricky though because detectability changes depending on captain-skills, modules and camo. Another way of adressing the radar-range vs detectability issues would be to change the captain-skill, CE. In my opinion it should work like the module. Giving all ships 10% detection reduction. This would also help balance cruiser vs bb detection.

3. I really hope that option 3 counter radar is not put into the game. WG likes their consumables though.

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I like the basic idea but as the comments not practical  but how about a ECM module  that reduces radar say for 5 or six second allowing you to get away behind an island or out of range.Any thoughts on that chaps

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49 minutes ago, RC_8015 said:

Then smoke would still be too powerfull in higher tiers. Gearing (US TX DD) has a smoke generator, which produces smoke for 30 seconds, and a cloud stays for 130 seconds. That means you could hide for 160 seconds totaly.Thats almost 3 minutes of stealthy action for you, enough time to fire 20 torps and the next 10 would be almost ready. All the gearing would have to do is move slowly all the time and fire torps once they are ready, all while sitting in a cap, preventing the enemy BBs and cruisers from attacking because they have to fear getting bursted by torps.

 

Listen, I can see where this tpoic is coming from. You are leveling DDs right now and now are encountering your first enemies with radar, so you arent used to it and are getting sunk by radar cruisers. But dont worry, we all have learned how to handle radar as DD. Either by running as far as you can; playinf dodge or die; sometimes ging kamikaze; or staying at the edge of the enemies radar.

Youll get used to it, just keep practicing

in some ways you are right, i am playing a few dd's

though i feel the same about it when i am in a cleaveland i just follow the dd's smoke trail into cap once in cap (if red dd present)click i can see you button oh look there he is 6km away and unleash hell on it the first chance the poor dd had to spot me was when i opened fire

 

9.1km detection range by sea in my Cleveland 5.4 detection range after firing my guns in smoke 9km radar range, it is effectively the same range as my detection range if it was a 4.5/5km radar range with the other stats i think it would be fine but then again where does that leave hydro?

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1 hour ago, Warhawk1984 said:

and i admit the idea has flaws and may not work at all, but Radar is OP as it has zero draw backs.

I disagree. It's certainly a useful tool but you have to be in range to use it and it doesn't last long. If a DD or CL has enough hp or there aren't enough enemy ships to take advantage, it's possible to wait out a radar and then you know you're safe while the radar is on cool-down. That requires map awareness (positions and enemy ships), of course, but then all tactics to counter radar require game knowledge, that's why it's pretty much restricted to higher tier ships.

 

Just now, Warhawk1984 said:

though i feel the same about it when i am in a cleaveland i just follow the dd's smoke trail into cap once in cap (if red dd present)click i can see you button oh look there he is 6km away and unleash hell on it the first chance the poor dd had to spot me was when i opened fire

With respect, if an enemy DD blunders to within 6km knowing that there are radar ships on the enemy team, he probably deserves to be blatted. That's almost close enough for German hydro to light him up, never mind radar.

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44 minutes ago, Warhawk1984 said:

i dont want radars removed i do like them but the fact they have no drawbacks does make them OP compared to ships without.

 

Play Mino with radar - play Mino with smoke. Come back and tell me if Radar mino had zero drawback and was OP compared to Mino with smoke.

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2 hours ago, Warhawk1984 said:

Currently Radar is a I WIN BUTTON...

 

  

If I may point out this section:  "...they are aware of the issue of radar, and the "nuke"-factor it has because of focus-fire..."   This is an issue with spotting mechanics in which you can target ships you don't actually spot.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

Will there be balancing of radar in matchmaker?
They don't want to introduce new factors for the matchmaker, since it would mean it would take too long to assemble a team (there are already enough requirements for it), the waiting time would really be too long. Some players don't mind the longer waittime, but most are annoyed by it. Additionally they think if a consumable is too influential in winning, they will rebalance said consumable in general. They did research from statistics on the EU regarding radar & winning, and it's not THAT influential as such as a consumable, but some ships that have radar are influential on their own, with or without radar. One of those ships is Missouri. That ship has too much influence, and is strong (but not truly OP). They are looking into changing radar, including a LOS-method. But nothing that can be shared yet. But they are aware of the issue of radar, and the "nuke"-factor it has because of focus-fire. But it's all still very early, with no final solution yet known.

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12 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Play Mino with radar - play Mino with smoke. Come back and tell me if Radar mino had zero drawback and was OP compared to Mino with smoke.

with that ship yes your right its a player chosen drawback you are choosing radar over smoke the same isn't true with ships like the cleveland where it the choice is a lol spotter plane or radar its a no contest

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1 hour ago, Warhawk1984 said:

better is the wrong word they have more utility and thus more useful to the whole team same as the current jap cv us us cv more squards= more utility

 

Depends on the amount id say. Ofc 1 Radar Ship will always be better than none. But when you have a game with Worcester/Missouri/Chapa id rather have a Hindi than a DM.

If at some point you have too many island spammers (like Worcs/DMs), then a ship which is able to tank some damage is more valuable than another radar ship.

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